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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Emperor Tippy said:
He shot at me, they shot at me, it shot at me all mean distinctly different things to the average English speaker.
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The first means that a man shot at you.

The second means that an unknown person shot at you.

The third means that an object or animal (a non-person) shot at you.

If someone said, "They shot at me," the immediate question is "Who shot at you?"

If someone said, "It shot at me," the immediate question is "What shot at you?"

Like it or not, "it" implies a non-person.
 
0
Simonbob said:
"I'm the God of Conquest. I want Mars strong, so when I take it, It will be truly meaningful!"
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There are more than one way of Conquest.

Grayven is culturally conquesting Earth to be something he wants.

And with Mars...

Well Scott Free might be interested since this involves freedom.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
Mars' primary contact with Earth comes from a police officer/superhero who sees some of the most unpleasant, violent and sometimes insane parts of the planet, and a porn star. If you ask a random Martian about Earth, those are the sorts of thing they mention. As such, mentioning that a political system originates from Earth... Eh, not a great way to encourage other people to use it.
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Speaking of which... I wonder what happened to that Porn Star?
 
I thought it was an AN somewhere in the last thread that said it was something close to conquest but not actually/ slightly different.
 
Mquz said:
Wait... is he the Martian version of a sexy teacher? Which also bring up the question - is Martian gender also programmed in by the guardians? Is there even sexual dymorphism?
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He was basically a biology teacher and became VERY interested in humans.

After coming back to Mars he probably can teach anyone who wants how to do perfect human transformations.
 
He didn't seem to have a problem with OL back when they were being ship teased.
 
Field Trip (part 12)
  • Threadmarks
    • 8th January
    22:02 GMT

    T'Pexor leads the way across the city, and I notice that the few Green Martians out and about make a point of ducking out of our flight path when they spot… Us. Why would I-? Oh, of course, they think I'm a Karmang-modified Hyperclan member, and they can't check because I'm blocking every mental probe.

    "You spoke to Karmang."

    "Yes."

    "Did he instruct you to give that lecture on politics?"

    "No. I decided that was necessary on my own. There are a great many opportunities for this whole situation to go horribly wrong, and I think the best way to prevent that-."

    "Is kill Reds until they get a clue."

    "No. I accept that you might find that most satisfying, but that isn't the method that will result in White equality."

    He turns to face me without altering the direction of his flight. "Why would I be interested in equality?"

    "Because that's what the majority of your new followers want."

    "It's what they'll be satisfied with. They'd probably be satisfied with less. It's pathetic."

    "I'm going to assume that Karmang didn't give you supernatural charisma."

    We fly through a tunnel, those Greens making use of it shrinking back as we pass. Most of the Whites don't exactly seem overjoyed, either. T'Pexor is either oblivious, or… He's reading the atmosphere telepathically and doesn't consider it significant.

    "Karmang improved everything about me. He wanted to demonstrate that Reds aren't an inherently superior form of life. That Greens aren't better than us. So now I'm better, we're better than them."

    "I applaud your initiative. Can I assume that you've had the Guardian programming removed?"

    "We all have. Karmang insisted. And if he hadn't, I would."

    "Any lingering resentment towards the Guardians?"

    "I'm not happy with the mess they left, but all the power in the universe is pointless if you're a mindless beast. I'll leave them alone if they keep leaving us alone."

    Yes, I'm… Sure that the potential threat will terrify them.

    "Karmang ordered me to kill this city's leaders. What did he tell you?"

    "To stop B'enn B'lanx doing anything which will make negotiations harder."

    He stops in the air, and I have to stop as well so that I don't leave him behind. "Negotiations? What?"

    "His opening demand was for everyone in a position of authority to stand down and that he be recognised as planetary overlord so that he could sort things out on his own recognisance."

    "That would actually satisfy me. Not that they will comply."

    "I don't think the Reds he left alive to pass on his demands believed that he actually is Karmang."

    "We can always drag their bleeding carcasses to Z'onn Z'orr. That should convince them."

    Karmang mentioned that, but the name doesn't mean anything to me. "What's that?"

    "Karmang's school, laboratory, fortress. The ancient memoirs the Reds use to justify their domination describe it in detail."

    "Not a bad idea." He starts flying again, and I trail along behind him. "Though not the.. 'bleeding carcasses' bit. If things go that badly wrong taking them to your base of operations wouldn't be wise."

    "That's why Karmang doesn't usually perform field operations himself. But this is it. Our minds and souls are free, the Reds' lies exposed. The only way we can fail now is if we are too weak to seize the opportunity."

    "Or alienate so many of your followers by acting like a mass-murdering psychopath that they side with the council instead of with you. That might be why Karmang is making an offer at all."

    "His offer is the only result I would accept, the only result any member of the Hyperclan would accept. There's no point engaging with them."

    "Are you ready for all-out war?"

    "The Hyperclan was created for all-out war. I was looking forward to it." He makes a quiet hissing noise. "Karmang, negotiating with… This had better be a ploy."

    He accelerates, heading towards… Hm. Looks like a series of structures made out of the same shapeshifting living matter that the bioship is made of. One big organism or a series of connected smaller ones? Sinestro, any insight?

    I will remind you that the Martians were all but extinct before I entered my version of this system for the first time.

    Yes, but you have more experience with-.

    A life form like that would need an extremely decentralised neural network to function. And at that point, the difference between it being a single being and multiple interconnected ones is a matter of semantics.

    Fair enough.

    Through transparent membranes on the structure's exterior I can see plenty of White Martians and a few harried-looking Greens. Hm.

    "Where are you keeping the Reds?"

    "In isolation in the lowest part of the city."

    "No, not the surviving governing officials, the Red population."

    "Yes. That's who I mean." He lands, and I touch down a moment later. "We killed the governing officials."

    "I… Believe that the Red population was one… Seventh of this city's total population?"

    "Something like that. We can't let any out into the city because the Greens might rally around them. We can't spread them out because we only have so many telepathy disruptors." He leads the way inside the building, the armed Whites inside giving him looks that are significantly friendlier than those from the general population. "So in they go."

    "Would you consider moving them if more telepathy blockers were provided?"

    "Someone might. So long as they're kept out of my way. He's coming."

    "Hm?"

    Ahead of us, heavily armed Hunters gesture at the Greens at their workstations, causing them to step away and file out of the room. T'Pexor strides inside, and those Greens who had been heading towards this exit immediately back up and head to one of the others. Once they're out, Hunters take positions at every doorway. And only then does the martian of the hour deign to join us.

    B'enn B'lanx is a heavily built White Martian, wearing what I recognise as the heavily armoured version of the Manhunter uniform in the orange and green of the local militia. He's also carrying a telekinetic booster staff in his right hand like a sceptre.

    "T'Pexor, is this one of your Hyperclan allies?"

    "No, B'enn. An alien. Karmang has delivered a list of demands to the Planetary Council, and he wants to make sure we don't attack anyone before they refuse them."

    "A slight delay would be useful, as long as the Manhunters don't use it to shift their forces." He looks at me. "How long?"

    "No timeline was stated. Realistically, at least a couple of days."

    "Very well! Come, alien. I want to show you what we've been doing."
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Mr Zoat said:
    T'Pexor's is either oblivious, or…
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    One of these is redundant. it's either "T'Pexor is..." or "T'Pexor's..."

    ...Can I assume that you're had the Guardian programming removed?"
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    ...Can I assume that you've had the Guardian programming removed?"

    Boy, T'Pexor is a hardliner, isn't he. B'enn B'lanx seems reasonable by comparison, and I foresee the former being trouble...
     
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    Normally I'm not big on forced surgery, but I can't help but think that removing the guardian programming on everyone, whether they want it or not, is probably the best bet. It seems to be the primary method by which the colorist tendencies are maintained, and really does a lot to explain how this sort of thing could happen at all in a telempathic species. I don't think it will magically make everyone stop being assholes to each other, but it would be a major step in combating colorism over the long term. Since it kicks away both the tendency to over value reds, and the system by which color was even an identifiable factor in the evaluation parameters of a species whose pigment altering abilities make octopi envious.
     
    Simonbob said:
    Wow. What a raving psychopath.

    Ok, there was oppression. Fine. How much?


    There's a difference between 'Back of the bus' and 'Rape at will', after all.
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    It was mentioned in story that the level of oppression varies geographically, for example, some places have actual laws specifically aimed at White Martian oppression, other areas it's just "complete coincidence, honest" that you can't find white martians in positions of respect or authority.
     
    Simonbob said:
    Wow. What a raving psychopath.

    Ok, there was oppression. Fine. How much?


    There's a difference between 'Back of the bus' and 'Rape at will', after all.
    Click to expand...
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    From previous bits, a lot of the problem is from the fact that it varies, as soon as the red in charge changes, there can be new standards for "keeping the whites in their place" so on one end you have people like the red that OL told about the guardian programing in the main story, on the other you have the leaders of the cities that went dark, because all the whites rose up as soon as they had something to rally around, plus reason to question instinctive respect for reds. remember that when M'gan explained martian racism, she still felt reluctant to actually be angry at reds, she was still upset at green bigots though, so this violent uprising is only possible because the removal of the programing, or even just knowledge of how their minds are being affected, lets them look more objectively at how the bigots among the Red leadership are the problem, which is probably why we haven't heard of any mass executions of greens.

    Edit- To the point, the main issue at this point is not just the racist but how it is intrinsically tied to political power, and how that political power is unchecked with regards to racist uses of said power, there are no protections for whites that can't be removed or ignored, barring the limits on certain crimes on a planet of telepaths that aren't all irredimable monsters

    But to answer the oppression was probably never to rape at will (Malekith is an example of how rare that sort of crime is on mars), and the nature of a telepathic society probably limited government neglect as well, hard for police to plausibly avoid dealing with crimes against minorities when everyone involved is a telepath- but on the flip side, the more social and emotional oppression could probably be unimaginably worse, police "escorting riffaf" away from the nice parts of town, or just the general attitude trickling down from their leadership being litterally palpable- Imagine going about your day and not just knowing that people think you are less of a person than them for your skin color, but feeling it, like everyone just outright says racial slurs to your face aprapo of nothing as you walk down the street.

    Now that we know that Karmang's attempt to get Marts civilized backfired and lead to the current situation, I can;t help but wonder how Martian society would have shaken out without his help, and what the guardians planned for or expected. Maybe without Karmang the less organized groups would have struggled more, but ended up better off, as the the programed instincts would eventually backed up by groups playing into the roles over time (the reds get a lot of milage out of claiming Karmang was red, if they actually had historic red leaders arise not only would that have more value, but lead to greater ability in red leaders decending and leaning from them), maybe it would have been worse, with whites outright enslaved in the begining (considering how deep the programing is it is worryingly possible that the whites could have beleived that being a slave was their place in life if things started out badly). Also if every martian has the programing removed, what will be the socially acceptable color for the general public, I see whites keeping their color, and teaching their children to do so as a pride thing, but reds would likely become reviled, or limited to the most egotitcial or apathetic, and I could see greens pick either or just enjoy how being in the middle makes keeping the color they are used to reasonable. Then again I wonder what would the biologically most comfortable adn thus likely their natural default? It likely wouldn't even be one of the three but something else like grey
     
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    Tyrantviewer said:
    From previous bits, a lot of the problem is from the fact that it varies, as soon as the red in charge changes, there can be new standards for "keeping the whites in their place" so on one end you have people like the red that OL told about the guardian programing in the main story, on the other you have the leaders of the cities that went dark, because all the whites rose up as soon as they had something to rally around, plus reason to question instinctive respect for reds. remember that when M'gan explained martian racism, she still felt reluctant to actually be angry at reds, she was still upset at green bigots though, so this violent uprising is only possible because the removal of the programing, or even just knowledge of how their minds are being affected, lets them look more objectively at how the bigots among the Red leadership are the problem, which is probably why we haven't heard of any mass executions of greens.

    Edit- To the point, the main issue at this point is not just the racist but how it is intrinsically tied to political power, and how that political power is unchecked with regards to racist uses of said power, there are no protections for whites that can't be removed or ignored, barring the limits on certain crimes on a planet of telepaths that aren't all irredimable monsters

    But to answer the oppression was probably never to rape at will (Malekith is an example of how rare that sort of crime is on mars), and the nature of a telepathic society probably limited government neglect as well, hard for police to plausibly avoid dealing with crimes against minorities when everyone involved is a telepath- but on the flip side, the more social and emotional oppression could probably be unimaginably worse, police "escorting riffaf" away from the nice parts of town, or just the general attitude trickling down from their leadership being litterally palpable- Imagine going about your day and not just knowing that people think you are less of a person than them for your skin color, but feeling it, like everyone just outright says racial slurs to your face aprapo of nothing as you walk down the street.

    Now that we know that Karmang's attempt to get Marts civilized backfired and lead to the current situation, I can;t help but wonder how Martian society would have shaken out without his help, and what the guardians planned for or expected. Maybe without Karmang the less organized groups would have struggled more, but ended up better off, as the the programed instincts would eventually backed up by groups playing into the roles over time (the reds get a lot of milage out of claiming Karmang was red, if they actually had historic red leaders arise not only would that have more value, but lead to greater ability in red leaders decending and leaning from them), maybe it would have been worse, with whites outright enslaved in the begining (considering how deep the programing is it is worryingly possible that the whites could have beleived that being a slave was their place in life if things started out badly). Also if every martian has the programing removed, what will be the socially acceptable color for the general public, I see whites keeping their color, and teaching their children to do so as a pride thing, but reds would likely become reviled, or limited to the most egotitcial or apathetic, and I could see greens pick either or just enjoy how being in the middle makes keeping the color they are used to reasonable. Then again I wonder what would the biologically most comfortable adn thus likely their natural default? It likely wouldn't even be one of the three but something else like grey
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    Here's the thing - they can remove Guardian programming, but have Martians evolved enough to actually function as a society without it on in their formative years (when they were children and forming mental connections? For all we know they might go back to being savages in a generation or 2 without the programming. There's just no way to know for sure.
    Basically, can we be 100% sure that this programming being on when they are young isn't what currently allows them to have a society? It might be fine to turn off for adults, but that's after it's already deeply ingrained in their psyches. Fearing fire as children might be what allows them to stay sane and not copy it's destructive behavior - remember M'gann was fascinated by it when she stopped being scared, so it obviously has some sort of semi-hypnotic effect.
    Reprogamming everyone to not fear fire anymore might cause more problems than it solves.
     
    w34v3r said:
    Normally I'm not big on forced surgery, but I can't help but think that removing the guardian programming on everyone, whether they want it or not, is probably the best bet. It seems to be the primary method by which the colorist tendencies are maintained, and really does a lot to explain how this sort of thing could happen at all in a telempathic species. I don't think it will magically make everyone stop being assholes to each other, but it would be a major step in combating colorism over the long term. Since it kicks away both the tendency to over value reds, and the system by which color was even an identifiable factor in the evaluation parameters of a species whose pigment altering abilities make octopi envious.
    Click to expand...
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    In the previous chapter Karmang told OL that most of the colorist division was his doing, not the Guardians. He also seemed to be rather pissed that it had gotten to the extreme that it has.
     
    Mquz said:
    Here's the thing - they can remove Guardian programming, but have Martians evolved enough to actually function as a society without it on in their formative years (when they were children and forming mental connections? For all we know they might go back to being savages in a generation or 2 without the programming. There's just no way to know for sure.
    Basically, can we be 100% sure that this programming being on when they are young isn't what currently allows them to have a society? It might be fine to turn off for adults, but that's after it's already deeply ingrained in their psyches. Fearing fire as children might be what allows them to stay sane and not copy it's destructive behavior - remember M'gann was fascinated by it when she stopped being scared, so it obviously has some sort of semi-hypnotic effect.
    Reprogamming everyone to not fear fire anymore might cause more problems than it solves.
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    Dude, the reason Burning Martians were monsters was because of how Martian reproduction works, mainly the part where the mother telepathically passes on knowledge while the baby is still "in the womb" for lack of a better term. For Burners this meant they had an uninterrupted chain of memories going all the way back to their pre-sentience days, which left them hyper focused on survival and conflict. The Guardians broke that chain and built a new one based on socializing and community and even if the Guardian's programming gets removed said chain will still be intact(martian mothers will still be teaching the kids the same values(mostly) that they have been teaching ever since the Guardians rebuilt them because it's all they have).

    The reason why M'gann was fascinated by fire was because for all of her life she had massive pyrophobia and once the programming was removed the instinctive fear she felt was no longer present. Of course she would end up fascinated by fire afterwards, the sheer lack of the previous fear response would leave anybody fascinated with the source of their previous fear.
     
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