With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[DrStrangeLove]

Lol. I went to look you up on SV only to find you'd been banned. Nice to see you on QQ though, Mr Zoat. Speaking of which, if you want to actually have a conversation on the subject that got you banned, I'd be willing to do via PMs. XD

(Unless a mod tells me politics is banned there too, in which case all bets are off. :/)

 

[Mquz]

So just a confirmation before this section goes any further and Zoat gets banned yet again... talking about fictional politics using names of real world politicians acting in generic politician ways is fine? Or does Zoat have to get rid of names like Boris Johnson? (I think he was mentioned when OL was creating the gates in the British Subway way back when.) He also used the name of a Polish politician I think somewhat recently. Also is talking about historical politics (20 years ago +) allowed? (That might be considered history instead of politics.) Hope posting this doesn't get me banned for some reason.
Edit: I think there was also a discussion about written vs unwritten case law and whether downloading all written law qualifies for being a lawyer. It was just before Zoat got suspended this last time. Does this count as politics? Or only controversial issues?

 

[Buggy123]

So just a confirmation before this section goes any further and Zoat gets banned yet again... talking about fictional politics using names of real world politicians acting in generic politician ways is fine? Or does Zoat have to get rid of names like Boris Johnson? (I think he was mentioned when OL was creating the gates in the British Subway way back when.) He also used the name of a Polish politician I think somewhat recently. Also is talking about historical politics (20 years ago +) allowed? (That might be considered history instead of politics.) Hope posting this doesn't get me banned for some reason.
Edit: I think there was also a discussion about written vs unwritten case law and whether downloading all written law qualifies for being a lawyer. It was just before Zoat got suspended this last time. Does this count as politics? Or only controversial issues?

Click to shrink...

I think that stories themselves get a little more leeway, generally. And the rule is mainly to reduce the number of arguments that crop up, so even if something is political, it'd probably get more leeway if it isn't popular. For instance, Boris Johnson is probably okay because while he's a politican, he isn't especially prominent or controversial globally or even necessarily locally (not entirely sure, I am not british). But if you were to put a character named "Prump" or "Futin" or "Jim Kong Un" in your story...

As for laws, that probably doesn't qualify either because most people are not prone bursting into heated screaming matches at the mention of the fine nuances of case law. And it's a issue spanning years, so it's not exactly recent either.

 

[Mquz]

I think that stories themselves get a little more leeway, generally. And the rule is mainly to reduce the number of arguments that crop up, so even if something is political, it'd probably get more leeway if it isn't popular. For instance, Boris Johnson is probably okay because while he's a politican, he isn't especially prominent or controversial globally or even necessarily locally (not entirely sure, I am not british). But if you were to put a character named "Prump" or "Futin" or "Jim Kong Un" in your story...

As for laws, that probably doesn't qualify either because most people are not prone bursting into heated screaming matches at the mention of the fine nuances of case law. And it's a issue spanning years, so it's not exactly recent either.

Click to shrink...

I seem to remember Boris Johnson being treated like a UK Trump on an episode of John Oliver (famous British comedian in the US). Though considerably less so. He was less controversial at the time this fic takes place I think. I think the episode in question had something to do with a certain current controversial British policy on the European stage and his support of it. However, this fic just complimented and sidestepped him. (That might have been written before this policy was decided on.) That's all I will say to stop this being a debate/banned.

 

[Mr Zoat]

8th January
21:57 GMT

"…between the legislature, the executive and the judiciary." I look around my impromptu audience, pointing to my chart. "Can anyone point out the obvious problem with this arrangement?"

They stare at me. W-? Oh, right.

"If you're trying to communicate with me telepathically, please remember that I'm blocking everything. If you wish to suggest an answer, please raise your right hand."

Seven go up. I point to one.

"You… Sir?"

"It.. seems that such a system would make it difficult to do anything? If they.. have to check with each other?"

"Yes, well done. In that regard it is the opposite of the system Martian cities use. A Prelate can upturn nearly the entire legal system of a city when they come to power without reference to anyone. Now, for those of you who are old enough to remember, what was the result last time that happened here?"

Hands again, and I point to one.

"A dramatic increase in colourism."

"Yes. When you give one person ultimate authority, they can do literally anything with it. And that can be a problem, because whatever traditions you may have that would usually regulate that sort of thing can be brushed aside effortlessly. It's efficient, but the only interests they have to act in are their own. In the Martian context, the Reds like to think that they educate potential Prelates to be above that sort of thing. And to a degree, they're successful. Prelates don't generally act in their naked self interest. They don't give themselves massive pay rises, require their citizens to literally sing their praises, establish harems, or… Whatever sort of things a totally decadent martian would do. But they do consider themselves obliged to uphold certain traditions, and Red privilege and White oppression are two of those traditions."

Off to my right, Circe is using illusions to show the Guardian limiter to the curious, while using her magic to remove it from volunteers. In the corner of my eye I watch her generate a sphere of arcane fire, causing everyone except her volunteer to back up.

"And here's where we get to the notion of empathy. The understanding that other people in our civilisation are much like ourselves, with wants and needs similar to their own. And the understanding that -while we might feel differently when it concerns us personally- at a societal level, it makes sense to assume that the pains of one are equal in significance to the pains of another."

Off to my left, Cyprian has taken the park warden squad leader aside and is giving him a lecture on political practice. How to defend your home city when everyone around you hates you.

"At the moment, in this city, Whites hold power. You have been oppressed for such a long time that -even within your own minds- you form a homogenous interest group. With the Manhunters assigned to this city either killed or imprisoned, you collectively control the lion's share of military power." Not a monopoly, of course. That just isn't possible when you're from a species of telepathic, shapeshifting telekines. "You could make anyone you can agree on your Prelate; a more agreeable Red, a Green or a fellow White. But whoever you select, that wouldn't eliminate the fundamental problem with tyranny: how do you make the tyrant do what you want them to do?"

I point to the legislature box on the chart.

"The purpose of a legislature is to allow a broadly representative group to adjudicate upon what laws are to be enacted, and to ensure that the executive is acting in the general good. Martian society only has this at the planetary level. In practice, Prelates are often advised by other Reds and provided information by Green civil servants, but that leaves Whites completely cut out of the process. Given that is the case, why would you view the decisions of such a ruler as binding upon you? Why would you consider the society which controls the planet to be your society? The answer-" I open my arms and gesture to the whole of the city surrounding us. "-is that you don't. You stopped seeing the Manhunters as enforcers of a fair set of laws and saw them as the weapons of your oppressors."

"But, as I look around, I see no Reds or Greens here. If you restructured the city's government in such a way that you had a White Prelate with popular support, advised by knowledgeable Whites and informed by White civil servants-" Which you can't because the lack of Whites in those fields means that those skills simply don't exist amongst the White population. "-then why would the Red or Green population regard its decisions any more highly than you do now?"

A hand rises. I nod, realise that they won't understand the gesture and point with my left hand instead.

"Why should we care?"

"You don't need to. I have a preference to use all of the talents within a society to further the goal of strengthening that society. To serve that end, I don't restrict groups from participating in particular fields, save when it is obviously impractical for them to do so. But, given everything you have endured, I can well understand that you have different priorities. Not losing the freedoms you have gained being chief among them. To serve that end, you have several options."

"Unlike in more liberal cities like Mel'dilo'rn, inter-colour marriage is prohibited here. As such, you could do what the Whites in Kriglo did and exile every non-White. But that creates its own problems. It dramatically reduces the city's population, and would most likely leave holes in your civic infrastructure which you couldn't fill, at least in the short term. And of course it means that if -when- the Planetary Council decide to send in Manhunters to return the city to the control of the people they think are the rightful rulers, they have no reason to stay their hand. They would consider you to all be in rebellion, and as such valid targets. And whatever you've experienced before is nothing to what a ruling caste will do to upstarts who have successfully resisted their control."

"Mass executions are an option, but I would not recommend it. If a people know that they will die anyway, then they will fight to the last. And in the event that such a purge was successful, the Manhunter assault would be even more vengeful. And would you really want to kill people for having the wrong colour skin?"

Fortunately, no one raises their hands to say 'yes'.

"If you're really interested in improving the lot of White Martians on a planetary scale, I think that the most rational thing for you to do would be to establish a superior form of government. One which protects every citizen, and grants them the same opportunities-." A hand goes up. "Yes?"

"White Martians represent approximately two fifths of the Martian population. If the delegates to an assembly were elected, three fifths of representatives would always outvote them. Which would leave us dependent on a tyrant-Prelate."

"When I was in university, I heard a most fascinating guide to creating a fair society. A fair society is one which would be created by a person of reasonable intelligence who did not know what position they would occupy in it. Which brings us on to-" I point to the board. "-the judiciary. States which use this model have a document called a constitution. This is a document which sets out limits to the power of other offices, defining what sorts of laws they can create and which they can't, and is the duty of the most experienced judges to strike down laws passed by either the executive or the legislature which break these. So if everything is working properly and a law which -for example- says that White Martians can't use public parks is passed, and the constitution forbade colour-based discrimination, a conviction for breaking it could be appealed on that basis and the law expunged."

"And this is where I think that you have an opportunity. If you create an egalitarian constitutional framework and actually grant equality to the other colours, you demonstrate that you can create a superior system to anything your Red overlords did. At the very least, you prove that you are capable of being reasoned with, and at most-."

"They still have the fleet."

"Yes, but the Greens on the fleet aren't mindless automata. They know that Whites all over Mars are demonstrating, and some of them are finding that their own faith in the Reds is wavering. They know that if you behave in a civilised manner and they are called in to crush you anyway, Whites all over Mars will abandon their peaceful demonstrations and take up arms, at tremendous cost to the Greens and Reds around them. They don't want that, and only a tiny minority of the Planetary Council are fanatical enough to push things to that point."

I exhale. I literally can't read a martian crowd, but I'm hopeful that I'm getting through. The only other thing I could do would be use my god speech… But I'd rather not.

"Okay." I wave my right hand. "Lecture over. I'll be available for questions whenever I'm free, but right now I think I need to go and talk to B'enn B'lanx."

"Yes."

I look up to see a White Martian in a golden body suit decorated with the red circle of the Hyperclan staring down at me.

"I think that you should."

 

[Mr Zoat]

So just a confirmation before this section goes any further and Zoat gets banned yet again... talking about fictional politics using names of real world politicians acting in generic politician ways is fine? Or does Zoat have to get rid of names like Boris Johnson? (I think he was mentioned when OL was creating the gates in the British Subway way back when.) He also used the name of a Polish politician I think somewhat recently. Also is talking about historical politics (20 years ago +) allowed? (That might be considered history instead of politics.) Hope posting this doesn't get me banned for some reason.
Edit: I think there was also a discussion about written vs unwritten case law and whether downloading all written law qualifies for being a lawyer. It was just before Zoat got suspended this last time. Does this count as politics? Or only controversial issues?

Click to shrink...

I checked with a mod, and stuff that's on the level of a name check is fine. Honestly, the SI's hostility to the RMT is a bigger risk.

 

[Simonbob]

"I'm the God of Conquest. I want Mars strong, so when I take it, It will be truly meaningful!"

 

[Mquz]

I checked with a mod, and stuff that's on the level of a name check is fine. Honestly, the SI's hostility to the RMT is a bigger risk.

Click to shrink...

I think he already put like a third of those people out of a job with the teleport gates system. That seems really hostile (if this is the same RMT we're talking about) (I had to look what the RMT is up so I may be wrong).

 

[Mr Zoat]

I think he already put like a third of those people out of a job with the teleport gates system. That seems really hostile (if this is the same RMT we're talking about) (I had to look what the RMT is up so I may be wrong).

Click to shrink...

Not yet. Making them isn't a quick process. But whatever union was in universe defending train company employees would take a similar position and the RMT is over twenty years old.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

"It.. seems that such a system would make if difficult to do anything?

Click to shrink...

"It.. seems that such a system would make it difficult to do anything?

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Now, for those of you are old enough to remember, what was the result last time that happened here?"

Click to shrink...

Now, for those of you who are old enough to remember, what was the result last time that happened here?"

...it makes sense to assume that pains of one are equal in significance to the pains of another."

Click to shrink...

...it makes sense to assume that the pains of one are equal in significance to the pains of another."
(Not sure if this is what you'd prefer, but it reads easier.)

...would the Red or Green population regard its decision any more highly than you do now?"

Click to shrink...

...would the Red or Green population regard its decisions any more highly than you do now?"
(Again, this reads a little better, but if you prefer the singular, so be it.)

Fortunately, no one raises their hands to say 'yes'.

Click to shrink...

Well, no fanatics here, at least...

They know that White all over Mars are demonstrating...

Click to shrink...

They know that Whites all over Mars are demonstrating...

I look at to see a White Martian in a golden body suit decorates with...

Click to shrink...

I look up to see a White Martian in a golden body suit decorated with...

"I think that you should."

Click to shrink...

Welp, contact made. Time to Diplomance his ass

 

[Vaermina]

I checked with a mod, and stuff that's on the level of a name check is fine. Honestly, the SI's hostility to the RMT is a bigger risk.

Click to shrink...

The SI has something against the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers?

 

[Mquz]

The SI has something against the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers?

Click to shrink...

Apparently. I was trying to be subtle about what it is in my above reply to Zoat. Just in case. I don't know British politics all that well, but this may be a controversial issue?

 

[Mr Zoat]

"It.. seems that such a system would make it difficult to do anything?
Now, for those of you are old enough to remember, what was the result last time that happened here?"
Now, for those of you who are old enough to remember, what was the result last time that happened here?"
...it makes sense to assume that pains of one are equal in significance to the pains of another."
...it makes sense to assume that the pains of one are equal in significance to the pains of another."
(Not sure if this is what you'd prefer, but it reads easier.)
...would the Red or Green population regard its decision any more highly than you do now?"
...would the Red or Green population regard its decisions any more highly than you do now?"
(Again, this reads a little better, but if you prefer the singular, so be it.)
They know that White all over Mars are demonstrating...
They know that Whites all over Mars are demonstrating...
I look at to see a White Martian in a golden body suit decorates with...
I look up to see a White Martian in a golden body suit decorated with...

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

The SI has something against the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers?

Click to shrink...

Not specifically. Unfortunately, rail privatisation was less than twenty years ago.

In story, the SI had a minor confrontation due to openly stating that he wants to replace the UK rail network with Dolmen Gates.

 

[Handlewithcare]

They are a telepathic, shape-changing species who prejudice based on skin colour. Does that strike anyone else as really weird?

 

[Mquz]

They are a telepathic, shape-changing species who prejudice based on skin colour. Does that strike anyone else as really weird?

Click to shrink...

It's been mentioned before that it is weird. It was justified as Guardian brainwashing to create stratified classes/ societal submission while also keeping some people closer to the original "red" Martians.

 

[nick012000]

So, Grayven's listing all the benefits of establishing an American-style republican government, and he's not mentioning that it's the government form of the dominant human nation on Earth, who'd have significant factions feel ideologically compelled to give the nascent democracy whatever support they can?

 

[Mr Zoat]

So, Grayven's listing all the benefits of establishing an American-style republican government, and he's not mentioning that it's the government form of the dominant human nation on Earth, who'd have significant factions feel ideologically compelled to give the nascent democracy whatever support they can?

Click to shrink...

Mars' primary contact with Earth comes from a police officer/superhero who sees some of the most unpleasant, violent and sometimes insane parts of the planet, and a porn star. If you ask a random Martian about Earth, those are the sorts of thing they mention. As such, mentioning that a political system originates from Earth... Eh, not a great way to encourage other people to use it.

They are a telepathic, shape-changing species who prejudice based on skin colour. Does that strike anyone else as really weird?

Click to shrink...

There appear to be an underlying colour identity which other martians can pick up on.

 

[nick012000]

Mars' primary contact with Earth comes from a police officer/superhero who sees some of the most unpleasant, violent and sometimes insane parts of the planet, and a porn star. If you ask a random Martian about Earth, those are the sorts of thing they mention. As such, mentioning that a political system originates from Earth... Eh, not a great way to encourage other people to use it.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but on the other hand, the whole reason the underlying reasons for this rebellion came to light were because of a young White Martian who traveled to Earth, as well.

 

[AidanMorgan]

Gotta say, this is the best Renegade section in a while. Grayven's finally doing things again, not dealing with the aftermath of finding out Life = Pain.

 

[Coda]

massive pay rises

Click to shrink...

raises

I nod, realise that they won't understand the gesture and point with my left hand instead.

Click to shrink...

Curse you and your opposition to the Oxford comma! *shakes a fist melodramatically*

 

[Mr Zoat]

raises

Click to shrink...

No. Could be a transatlantic thing.

 

[Mquz]

Wait... so their telepathy lets them think and act with a group mind/ see approximately how many people are having a given thought? Seems like that would be an interesting thing in a democracy.

 

[rkyeun]

They are a telepathic, shape-changing species who prejudice based on skin colour. Does that strike anyone else as really weird?

Click to shrink...

It's more than skin deep. They can change their skin color at will, but it's a held shapeshift form, not their base form, and other Martians can tell that they're doing it and what their real color is. The minds of the different colors are somewhat different as well. It's perhaps most like a difference in blood type, but mental.

 

[Coda]

No. Could be a transatlantic thing.

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Oh, interesting. Yes, I would assume you're right about that.

 

[Siskulous]

Wait... so their telepathy lets them think and act with a group mind/ see approximately how many people are having a given thought? Seems like that would be an interesting thing in a democracy.

Click to shrink...

Indeed. It would actually make true democracy viable. Not necessarily a good idea - the tyranny of the majority is a thing - but viable. Which is far more than humans can manage with true democracy.

 

[9adam4]

Yep, in America we'd always say "raise" with respect to income, but in Britain "pay rise" is just fine.

 

[Mquz]

So... has Zoat stated what Grayven is a new god of nowadays... because he previously stated it's no longer conquest.

 

[Ardy]

So... has Zoat stated what Grayven is a new god of nowadays... because he previously stated it's no longer conquest.

Click to shrink...

He did??? Where?

 

[Chaoswind]

So... has Zoat stated what Grayven is a new god of nowadays... because he previously stated it's no longer conquest.

Click to shrink...

Narrator: This is a lie.

He is still mantling conquest, its why the original Grayven wants to kill him.

He may have a more positive spin, but he is still conquest.

 

[9adam4]

Otherwise translated as "An individual of indeterminate or unknown gender puts the lotion in the basket."

Click to shrink...

Not in this case. The whole point of this dialog, from Silence of the Lambs, is that the crazy serial killer has derealized his victims.

"It puts the lotion in the basket," because "it" is not a human being. "It" is simply an object being harvested for its skin.