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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
I'm actually a little disappointed that Grayven isn't sticking with his plan of, "I'll let them sort it out themselves."

But I guess his ego won't stand for being used to enable a clever little decapitation strike. Because I do feel that if Karmang had done this on his own Grayven wouldn't have cared.
 
ForeverShogo said:
I'm actually a little disappointed that Grayven isn't sticking with his plan of, "I'll let them sort it out themselves."

But I guess his ego won't stand for being used to enable a clever little decapitation strike. Because I do feel that if Karmang had done this on his own Grayven wouldn't have cared.
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Well, I think he would have been annoyed that he couldn't find a more peaceful (read: less costly) alternative, but would have decided 'eh, not my world - not my problem'. Karmang, however, used Grayven as a weapon, and Grayven doesn't get used, he uses.
 
Vaermina said:
There's no way a realistically portrayed Motherbox actually follows through with that request.


And Martians can survive that.
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Mr Zoat said:
Mother Box, outcome of bomb attack on Z'onn Z'orr?

Ping.

I'll get Circe to check later.
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sounds suspiciously like "lets not and say i did, wait for him to calm down a bit before telling him"

you note the command was to send a bomb the 2nd half was more a suggestion

surely one of desaad's bombs destroys the evidence?
 
Twilight666 said:
Noooo, it's the hyperclan headquarters... everyone there is Hyperclan, and they consider it a holy place so they don't allow anyone else there.
This is basically bombing the military headquarters of a terrorist organisation.

While Mother Box is from New Genesis, that means that it is nice, not a pacifist.
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That's an assumption, and you know what they say about assumptions right?

Fact is, a believably written Motherbox wouldn't send an evil bomb anywhere on the command of someone from Apokolips unless she could personally confirm there were only murderous combatants there.

And even then, she would probably check with someone from New Genesis before doing so.
 
ForeverShogo said:
I'm actually a little disappointed that Grayven isn't sticking with his plan of, "I'll let them sort it out themselves."

But I guess his ego won't stand for being used to enable a clever little decapitation strike. Because I do feel that if Karmang had done this on his own Grayven wouldn't have cared.
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Makes sense actually, he was just used as a pawn to kill a bunch of people, was attacked himself and almost lost his arm, all that while acting in a diplomatic role, on a peace conference.

Pride is certainly part of it, but there are somethings you can't just let stand, someone commiting a war crime on your face at the very least should be one of these things.
 
Thank all the mythological gods we have you Vaermina. The absolute authority on whatever subject Zoat does that you don't approve of. How else would we know?

Akatsunami said:
Makes sense actually, he was just used as a pawn to kill a bunch of people, was attacked himself and almost lost his arm, all that while acting in a diplomatic role, on a peace conference.

Pride is certainly part of it, but there are somethings you can't just let stand, someone commiting a war crime on your face at the very least should be one of these things.
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Yeah, it's hard to say "It's an internal matter" after you've been so personally pulled into the events as such.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I'd have to read that argument before I could give it any credence. Given Grayven's higher body count, his assimilation of multiple people that OL spared, and his overall being a dick to just about everyone.
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It's theoretically possible that Grayven's absolute body count - factoring in the lives saved because of something he did who would not be alive otherwise - is negative in the long run.

....Ok, granted there have to be a LOT of people down the road who would have been killed by someone Grayven killed for that to work out, but given the types of people Grayven has killed it is possible.

Anyway, at the very least Grayven is an anti-hero and definitely not a villain.
 
Siskulous said:
It's theoretically possible that Grayven's absolute body count - factoring in the lives saved because of something he did who would not be alive otherwise - is negative in the long run.

....Ok, granted there have to be a LOT of people down the road who would have been killed by someone Grayven killed for that to work out, but given the types of people Grayven has killed it is possible.

Anyway, at the very least Grayven is an anti-hero and definitely not a villain.
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By what metric? Probably most, but not all. He still seems a bit too extreme even for an anti-hero what with the bombing. Though no genocide, so that's one point in his favor. He might have created a human Atrocitus though, along with all the mind control that will possibly involve in future.
My bet is that this might become like one of the worst recent US wars, with the enemy going undercover. Fairly sure there is no way to pick out Karmang trying to hide himself from a crowd of people, so he just did the sci-fi equivalent of bombing the twin towers, then going undercover. Grayven can't do a quintessence waveform scan, and Karmang can teleport / shapeshift convincingly, and has undercover followers, so he could essentially make Interclan into a Martian Al Qaeda. If the bomb does succeed, the building is probably full of civilians/hostages. Hm... could M'gann do a quintessence waveform scan by altering her mind if she had a ring?
 
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Vaermina said:
That's an assumption, and you know what they say about assumptions right?

Fact is, a believably written Motherbox wouldn't send an evil bomb anywhere on the command of someone from Apokolips unless she could personally confirm there were only murderous combatants there.

And even then, she would probably check with someone from New Genesis before doing so.
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I'll point out that in the DC cinematic universe, Steppenwulf was using Mother Boxes to blow up planets - the entire plot of the Justice League movie revolved around stopping him from doing so to Earth.
 
Mquz said:
By what metric? Probably most, but not all. He still seems a bit too extreme even for an anti-hero what with the bombing. Though no genocide, so that's one point in his favor. He might have created a human Atrocitus though, along with all the mind control that will possibly involve in future.
My bet is that this might become like one of the worst recent US wars, with the enemy going undercover. Fairly sure there is no way to pick out Karmang trying to hide himself from a crowd of people, so he just did the sci-fi equivalent of bombing the twin towers, then going undercover. Grayven can't do a quintessence waveform scan, and Karmang can teleport / shapeshift convincingly, and has undercover followers, so he could essentially make Interclan into a Martian Al Qaeda. If the bomb does succeed, the building is probably full of civilians/hostages. Hm... could M'gann do a quintessence waveform scan by altering her mind if she had a ring?
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The events of Star crossed and other episodes highlight that by Paul own standards his renegade version of himself is a bigger hero than him.

Being a hero is about taking risks to save others and ParaPaul isn't a huge risk taker, his most heroic moment (one of the few) was all the way back when Klarion used magic dust to syphon power from Pauls ring and how he took the ring off and fought as a powerless human with a handgun to weaken Klarion and give his friends a better chance.
By the same metric, Grayven/RenePaul has taken many more risks to his life to directly save other people.

In short the argument that Grayven is a bigger hero than Paul does have some merits to it.
 
nick012000 said:
I'll point out that in the DC cinematic universe, Steppenwulf was using Mother Boxes to blow up planets - the entire plot of the Justice League movie revolved around stopping him from doing so to Earth.
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Vaermina said:
You know... I don't think you could have cut Mr Zoat any deeper if you actually tried...
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he could've cited something from new 52... god knows, ive been banging that drum for 3 forums now
 
nick012000 said:
I'll point out that in the DC cinematic universe, Steppenwulf was using Mother Boxes to blow up planets - the entire plot of the Justice League movie revolved around stopping him from doing so to Earth.
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I don't think there's much of anything about the New Gods in that movie that lines up well with the comics. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that Father Boxes are never a thing in the DC cinematic universe, no matter how many movies they put out or how much they deal with the various New Gods.
 
Vaermina said:
That's an assumption, and you know what they say about assumptions right?

Fact is, a believably written Motherbox wouldn't send an evil bomb anywhere on the command of someone from Apokolips unless she could personally confirm there were only murderous combatants there.

And even then, she would probably check with someone from New Genesis before doing so.
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"Someone from Apokolips", you make it sound like Gravyen just nicked a Motherbox off of someone from New Genesis and runs around using it to do horrible misdeeds all day. IIRC, his Motherbox was built for him on New Genesis, was it not? Or it was the one that Barda and Co had that decided to start being helpful when Grayven got anti-lifed, can't remember which of those two it was. Either way, it was either intended and built for him by New Genesis itself, or it judged him and decided to trust him (while looking at, and helping rebuild, his soul).

That sort of relationship implies at least a liiiiiiittle bit of leeway, when it comes to orders that one might normally reject out of hand.

Not to mention, Motherbox was just at the location where they sent the bomb, mere minutes before the attack. That means that anyone who was there would have to have been teleported in within that timespan, while the main person capable of teleporting to/from that location at all was visibly occupied for the entire duration.
 
Siskulous said:
It's theoretically possible that Grayven's absolute body count - factoring in the lives saved because of something he did who would not be alive otherwise - is negative in the long run.

....Ok, granted there have to be a LOT of people down the road who would have been killed by someone Grayven killed for that to work out, but given the types of people Grayven has killed it is possible.

Anyway, at the very least Grayven is an anti-hero and definitely not a villain.
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Well, I wouldn't argue that Grayven is a villain. Most of my comment was in regards to him being more of a hero then Paragon OL.

Occasionally people say that, but I just don't see it in the slightest.

Buggy123 said:
"Someone from Apokolips", you make it sound like Gravyen just nicked a Motherbox off of someone from New Genesis and runs around using it to do horrible misdeeds all day.
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Also important to note that despite knicking the name...Grayven isn't actually Grayven nor is he from, or ever been to, Apokolips.

This is something I would assume said Motherbox would be able to tell.
 
Siskulous said:
I don't think there's much of anything about the New Gods in that movie that lines up well with the comics. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that Father Boxes are never a thing in the DC cinematic universe, no matter how many movies they put out or how much they deal with the various New Gods.
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They sort of made it sound like the Mother Box contained a piece of Mortala or something and a father box could basically contain a piece of Darkseid. That movie felt like it was rewritten by people who don't GET why people like the canon DC universe at least a few times.

It seems worse than comparing that than DC CW tv show lore where so much is different. Solomon Grundy not being a zombie, and the 52 universes being fairly similar to each other for one thing revealed early on. Though some of that is good stuff. But you may as well call it it's own multiverse now.
 
sacrarium0 said:
I don't know if anyone cares, but I mirrored the sufficientvelocity part of this story here:

https://sacrarium0.github.io/wtr/

I will take this down if the author objects.
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Are you intending to keep up with the corrections as they come in? ;)

Maxx Crowley said:
This is something I would assume said Motherbox would be able to tell.
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I dunno about that. Father Box already whammied his soul and it would require prying into his mind beyond surface thoughts and godspeech to divine the truth. And I wouldn't be surprised if he actually is an apokoliptian now, biologically, even if he isn't ethnically Apokoliptian.
 
Buggy123 said:
"Someone from Apokolips", you make it sound like Gravyen just nicked a Motherbox off of someone from New Genesis and runs around using it to do horrible misdeeds all day. IIRC, his Motherbox was built for him on New Genesis, was it not? Or it was the one that Barda and Co had that decided to start being helpful when Grayven got anti-lifed, can't remember which of those two it was. Either way, it was either intended and built for him by New Genesis itself, or it judged him and decided to trust him (while looking at, and helping rebuild, his soul).

That sort of relationship implies at least a liiiiiiittle bit of leeway, when it comes to orders that one might normally reject out of hand.

Not to mention, Motherbox was just at the location where they sent the bomb, mere minutes before the attack. That means that anyone who was there would have to have been teleported in within that timespan, while the main person capable of teleporting to/from that location at all was visibly occupied for the entire duration.
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Motherbox's job was to watch Grayven...

Because nobody trusts him because he's a lying liar who lies.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Well, I wouldn't argue that Grayven is a villain. Most of my comment was in regards to him being more of a hero then Paragon OL.
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Hmm, I suspect a lot of this is due to present Grayven being more human and understandable in his thought process. Myself, I'm not sure which is better or worse, the various atrocities and heroics have kind of blended together over time for me.
 
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