With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Chaoswind]

Zatanna is one of her friends her age, Dr Sivan a may be an slightly older friend... Who would be the third?

Circe is more a magic mentor than a friend, probably the same with Constantine.

 

[Ngamer11]

Who are Sunset friends on earth 16?
Circe, Zatanna...?

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So as a reminder, who are the 3 people Grayven is talking of as being Sunset's friends? I know there's Circe, John was mentioned at one point, though not sure about that, and who else?

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The two people who know magic are probably Zatanna and Circe. The third friend is probably Miss Amane, aka Iname, the New God of Death. I remember there was a scene where Grayven is honestly surprised that Sunset would leave the mountain to go hang out with Misa in civilian wear while the girl is working as a model.

Mr Zoat, how do Misa and Sunset see each other? Just co-workers who like to hang out sometimes? Not so close friends who still care for each other? A person you wouldn't think you'd interact with but consider your best friend?

 

[Ace Dreamer]

Canterlot
Afternoon
...
it's a little further backthere

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Missing space?

---

This is a fascinating dialogue, tween Grayven and Celestia. It's nice to see Grayven treated as a rational being, though it's pretty clear Celestia doesn't understand him, or the culture that he's from.

How Celestia would respond to visiting a DC world, given enough time to for it to make a credible impact on her, is another interesting question... The locals would go, "Oh, just another super powered being", and, "She's not trying to kill us, is there a way we can make money out of her?", of course.

 

[Chaoswind]

The two people who know magic are probably Zatanna and Circe. The third friend is probably Miss Amane, aka Iname, the New God of Death. I remember there was a scene where Grayven is honestly surprised that Sunset would leave the mountain to go hang out with Misa in civilian wear while the girl is working as a model.

Mr Zoat, how do Misa and Sunset see each other? Just co-workers who like to hang out sometimes? Not so close friends who still care for each other? A person you wouldn't think you'd interact with but consider your best friend?

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Circe is more a magic mentor than a friend, same with Constantine.

Zatanna, Iname and Sivanna are probably it.

 

[Ngamer11]

Pretty sure Magnificus is too into science to get into magic. He probably wouldn't dismiss it like other super scientists; it just isn't his interest. The reason I think it's Circe is because they like researching magic together, and Circe seems to enjoy spending time with Sunset. Remember when they were talking about Alicorn ascension and cutie marks? The two seemed to just really bond over things like that. Age is also not a factor when you remember that Circe is thousands of years old. She probably considers intelligence, not age, as a factor in whom she considers friends.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Pretty sure Magnificus is too into science to get into magic. .

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Nah, there's no way he wouldn't also enhance his SCIENCE! with magic. Well, really it'd be his engineering with magic. Because Science is just a method of figuring shit out by disproving our beliefs.

 

[Chaoswind]

Pretty sure Magnificus is too into science to get into magic. He probably wouldn't dismiss it like other super scientists; it just isn't his interest. The reason I think it's Circe is because they like researching magic together, and Circe seems to enjoy spending time with Sunset. Remember when they were talking about Alicorn ascension and cutie marks? The two seemed to just really bond over things like that. Age is also not a factor when you remember that Circe is thousands of years old. She probably considers intelligence, not age, as a factor in whom she considers friends.

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Again that is a relationship with a mentor, it's too uneven to be considered friendship.

And Magnificus IS into magic and alchemy because it's a complete new subject to him, remember certain magic user and alchemy expert went Ara Ara on him when she was working as an alchemy tutor.

 

[Ngamer11]

Again that is a relationship with a mentor, it's too uneven to be considered friendship.

And Magnificus IS into magic and alchemy because it's a complete new subject to him, remember certain magic user and alchemy expert went Ara Ara on him when she was working as an alchemy tutor.

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Pretty sure you can be friends with your teacher.

The Magnificus you're describing is the one from the Paragon timeline. Renegade!Magni is pretty depressed, so he might not be that motivated to get into in-depth analysis of magic with Sunset.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree until Mr Zoat gives us the facts of whom Grayven was referring to.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Pretty sure you can be friends with your teacher.

The Magnificus you're describing is the one from the Paragon timeline. Renegade!Magni is pretty depressed, so he might not be that motivated to get into in-depth analysis of magic with Sunset.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree until Mr Zoat gives us the facts of whom Grayven was referring to.

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Didn't Renegade's version of that family all get killed?

 

[Senevri]

"I'm not good at estimating the age of ponies. But I know a human teenager when I see one. Your newly alicornised acolyte isn't all that old.

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Really? I mean, in general, yes, but I read Twilight as a young adult. She doesn't read younger than any of her friends, who clearly have been in a work life for a while. Then again, Equestria is quite rural, so it may be that the usual life path is some sort of a on-the-job apprenticeship after finishing basic education, so they could be late teens in S1E1.
Then again, their cuteness probably inhibits a human's ability to guess their age, so they could also be twentysomething equivalents.

 

[Hell's Razer]

What about Lynne? (spelling?)

 

[Darko]

Magni survived in the renegade timeline.

 

[Lupercal]

Didn't Renegade's version of that family all get killed?

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Dr Thaddeus and Dr Magnificus both survived. All the rest of their family was killed though you are right.

One of Grayven's best dad moments was sitting Sunset and Magnificus down together to talk about how both of them feel like they are not good enough even though they are both superscientists.

 

[WereDragon]

Canterlot
Afternoon

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You know, the current position of the sun is a really bad indication of time on a planet where the sun is manually controlled.

Chapter was pretty much as expected. Grayven is an arsehole, Celestia is uninformed, both are heavily biased. News at 11.

"If you think a couple of boards would have stopped her, you're really underestimating her."

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On the one hand a 'couple of boards' wouldn't stop a guy with a hammer, so would be rather useless for preventing people coming through.
On the other hand such could potentially function like the iris on a Stargate, and thus be functionally invulnerable to anything Sunset could throw at it.

I don't like how Grayven railroaded and interrupted her. She is old and experienced enough to finish her sentences and make herself heard.

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God Of Conquest leaking Orange and or Yellow light. Grayven cheats at social combat even harder than he cheats at martial combat.

 

[inglorius]

so I'm calling that three-nil. Grayven-" I hold my right forehoof up to my right ear-. No, wait, it's a little further backthere we go. "-I hear you cry, how did you achieve such a thing where I, with all my experience of and devotion to friendship could not?' And I will gladly-."

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`backthere` was already mentioned, but what actually going on with this sentence?
If he is faux-quoting Celestia, should not there be an opening quote before `Grayven`? Threw me in a loop for a 20 s.
Interestingly, Sunset problems sound too close to my own curriculum grievances: ethics courses suck.

 

[Mquz]

`backthere` was already mentioned, but what actually going on with this sentence?
If he is faux-quoting Celestia, should not there be an opening quote before `Grayven`? Threw me in a loop for a 20 s.
Interestingly, Sunset problems sound too close to my own curriculum grievances: ethics courses suck.

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What are you studying? Medicine? Always wondered what the curriculum is like for that and why people complain about ethics. I found ethics courses the easiest ones to get a solid B - A- in. I studied bioinformatics at a fairly liberal decently ranking university and only took the one course (it's combined for undergrads / graduates).

 

[nick012000]

Yeah. A lot of people are forgetting that Sunset is kind of a piece of shit. She's not as bad as she could have been, but she was never going to become an Alicorn if ending up in one of the DC universes didn't basically allow her to find the means to cheat her way there.

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I think she wound up becoming an Alicorn in canon, or at least she managed to pull off the same sort of Alicorn-themed magical girl transformation as Twilight Sparkle. That was after Twilight beat her up and she spent a while undergoing character development, though.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Are they still alive? Sunset left Equestria ages ago.

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Only fifteen years in this story. They'd be older, but not necessarily dead.

Most fans seem to think Sunset is an orphan anyway.

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In the Equestria Girls comic she mentions that she's not particularly close to them. This implies that they're both alive, or at least were when she left Equestria.

Mr Zoat, how do Misa and Sunset see each other? Just co-workers who like to hang out sometimes? Not so close friends who still care for each other? A person you wouldn't think you'd interact with but consider your best friend?

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Oh, they're definately friends. To start with, Sunset just wanted to study her and Misa wanted to make Grayven happy by encouraging Sunset to be more sociable. But by now they genuinely like one another.

Missing space?

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No, that was deliberate.

Or rather, yes, but it was deliberate.

Really? I mean, in general, yes, but I read Twilight as a young adult. She doesn't read younger than any of her friends, who clearly have been in a work life for a while. Then again, Equestria is quite rural, so it may be that the usual life path is some sort of a on-the-job apprenticeship after finishing basic education, so they could be late teens in S1E1.
Then again, their cuteness probably inhibits a human's ability to guess their age, so they could also be twentysomething equivalents.

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The ponies' ages were left intentionally undefined. I like to think of them as having maturity levels anywhere between 12 and 18

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[Pinklestia]

In the Equestria Girls comic she mentions that she's not particularly close to them. This implies that they're both alive, or at least were when she left Equestria.

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The comics are in a different continuity and many of the events there are not cannon and or contradict the series.

 

[Mr Zoat]

The comics are in a different continuity and many of the events there are not cannon and or contradict the series.

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I know. However, we don't get ANY explanation of why Sunset went through the mirror outside of that.

 

[Pinklestia]

I know. However, we don't get ANY explanation of why Sunset went through the mirror outside of that.

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Didn't she think she was going to lose her chance to become an alicorn and she thought Celestia was gonna arrest her or something?

Impulsive and desperate teens do stupid things.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

Just throwing in my two cents on the topic.

Celestia's lessons on morality, and lessons in general, appear to be very much in the abstract. Since apparently she herself, and most magical ponies, don't have a fundamental understanding of magic, or even physics. Given the tech level of their world, and the cutie marks and magics used to bypass what we'd see as a normal scientific development process, they haven't focused on the scientific methodology that humans have.

Spells would be learned by rote, rather then developed from first fundamentals, because the casters themselves would have little understanding of what they were doing to create them in the first place. A comic book comparison would be Marvel's Forge. He has a mutant power of 'invention', but he rarely understands the devices he creates until he's taken the time to take them apart after the fact and study their operation. Much like a magical talent on Wilson would grant proficiency without the underpinning knowledge base.

Sunset, and most young students (at least in my experience), don't respond to abstract examples well, as it is so removed from the reality of their situation. It's a game of pretend without any investment or cost to them, so there is no connection to it. History and theoretical can get results only if the student can relate to them in some way.

Celestia never gave Sunset a subject or topic that made a personal connection, and actively prohibited any topic that would have garnered such.

Grayven allowed her access to anything she wished, but presented real world issues to solve, giving a front row seat to the problems, and the outcome of the application of her abilities on other lives.

I think Grayven Himself describes it better then I back here.

"I understand that part of the reason why you left your former mentor was that you believed that she was holding you back." Miss Shimmer nods uncertainly. "This is 'not being held back'. This is confronting the world in all its horror and misery and it being your responsibility to fix it. This is not being able to pass the buck because you can see what happens when you do that. See it as.. not on a report on a scroll or on edited pictures on a television screen, but see it in the flesh. Celestia would lecture you on this subject and you would ignore her. You do not appear to be ignoring me."

She gulps.

"You came to the conclusion -with your mind heavily weighted against the idea- that killing a limited number of people was the only way to fix the situation in the medium term. And now you feel bad." I make a shrugging gesture with my hands. "Okay. Reflect on your beliefs and on this feeling. Where lies the contradiction?"

"I… Celestia always…"

"Celestia had a thousand years to get the country running exactly as she liked it, and she only had to deal with… What, a few million Ponies? You don't. Where is the contradiction?"

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[Siskulous]

Everything about this pisses me off. More of that "I could have taught you things that are worthwhile, but I wanted you to have perspective/Be humble/Normal life" Dumbledore/Hiruzen/literally any "mentor" of a chosen one that doesn't really do their fucking job ever.

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To be fair, Dumbledore's job wasn't actually to teach Harry anything. His job was to hire teachers to teach Harry. Which he did a decent enough job at. Sure, some of the teachers at Hogwarts were completely worthless, but - and I say this having worked in an educational environment for 16 years - every school has it's bad teachers.

Also, that's be big 10-4 on the go fuck yourself woman pony creature who fucked things up and thus doesn't deserve answers to shit.

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As I've said repeatedly what little I know from MLP canon comes from having been in the room not paying attention while someone else watched it, but as she's written here I agree completely. Though I do find it likely that Zoat's taking poetic license to make her look like a bitch-queen who retains power only because her subjects can't bring themselves to think of deposing her.

Honestly, I don't think Celestia is in the wrong here. Making sure someone with so much potnetial power has a solid ethics foundation and a social net to fall back on before they become super powerful, which makes it even harder to relate, makes a lot of sense.

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You can have the right idea and go about it the entirely wrong way. And she did.

I don't like how Grayven railroaded and interrupted her. She is old and experienced enough to finish her sentences and make herself heard.

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Despite the insistence to the contrary of many older folk, age and experience alone do not warrant respect. We all get old if we live long enough, but not everyone gains wisdom with age. After all I guarantee we can all name at least one 70+ person whom we have no respect for. I could name several well known ones myself, but I'd be violating rule 8 so I won't.

And, frankly, at this point I think Grayven might just drop dead if he actually showed anyone an ounce of respect before they earned it the hard way.

Who are Sunset's biological parents?

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say a couple of ponies from Equestria. One male and one female. Most likely one or both of them were unicorns.

 

[Railhazar]

Well, in my opinion, Celestia's issue is that there was, for centuries, no one around able and willing to question her
or to call her off when she is making a mistake.

An alicorn is litteraly a royalty backed with a very tangible divine right to rule.

She has ruled alone for one thousand years. She has become a permanent fixture of Equestria.
I hardly think that there would be any pony able to fathom that Celestia may be wrong at time or to simply make
mistakes. Worse Celestia may truly at some degree start to believe that she is Always right.


Sunset anger toward Celly has its root in the simple fact that Celestia simply failled to live up to the perfect and flawless
standard that many pony have about alicorn in general and celestia in particular.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I mean the 'worthwhile' thing that Sunset wanted to learn was the method to become an Alicorn and the process to do so that Celestia knows of involves making friends as a prerequisite to the process. So in this case the "have perspective/Be humble/Normal life" thing was a necessary step in reaching the 'worthwhile' lessons.

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Except not, as she's apparently done it all on her own. I haven't even read more then a post of this, but I can already see how it went.

"I want to learn the thing. Teach me the thing."

"No. Go do this other thing. Get frustrated as I ignore your pleas, and softly chide you for not figuring it out on your own as I pull mentor trickery."

And really would you teach a method to acquire almost god-like power to someone that seems extremely anti-social and hates interacting with almost everyone, when part of going through with the process involves basically learning to interact with people.

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When someone comes to my Judo club and asks to be taught a technique, a technique that and injure, cripple, or even kill another human being. I TEACH THEM THE TECHNIQUE.

I make sure they understand how dangerous it is, I make sure they understand just how quickly damage can be done, and I make sure I teach them the "Polite" way to apply things in training vs competition.

But the point is, I fucking teach. I don't go....

"I want to learn martial arts."

"Go make some friends."

Also, if someone is extremely anti-social and hates interacting with people, and you fucking knew that going in, then you damn well ought to know that they are going to balk at what they will clearly view as you wasting their fucking time.

Which, in turn, makes you a failure as a teacher.

To be fair, Dumbledore's job wasn't actually to teach Harry anything.

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While also knowing that he was in no way, shape or form, going to be a normal student. I'll blame Rowling's writing. But literally every year Harry got into shit that he really needed to be better prepared for.

His job was to hire teachers to teach Harry.

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Which he consistently fails at. Hell, he hires a fraud, and wastes an entire valuable year of children's education, in a convoluted plan to expose him.

Which he did a decent enough job at.

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No, no he did not. Hell, even Snape, who is amazing at what he does, is still an absolutely horrendous teacher.

Sure, some of the teachers at Hogwarts were completely worthless, but - and I say this having worked in an educational environment for 16 years - every school has it's bad teachers.

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There are maybe, MAYBE, three competent teachers in the whole school.

And yes, I'm well aware that Harry is utter shit as a student and would rather go play the sportsball then actually crack open a book and learn his craft. I will also point out that in book one, he was absolutely excited to learn magic (never happens again) until Snape fucked it.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

No, no he did not. Hell, even Snape, who is amazing at what he does, is still an absolutely horrendous teacher.

There are maybe, MAYBE, three competent teachers in the whole school.

And yes, I'm well aware that Harry is utter shit as a student and would rather go play the sportsball then actually crack open a book and learn his craft. I will also point out that in book one, he was absolutely excited to learn magic (never happens again) until Snape fucked it.

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Who were the three competent teachers? Minerva, bardy crouch jr and lupus?

 

[LurkingInTheDeceit]

Who were the three competent teachers? Minerva, bardy crouch jr and lupus?

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Minerva, Flitwick and Sprout. Although depending on your head-canon, none of them are competent what with all the problems students had to solve or the danger they're regularly put in. Lupin could also be called competent, in that he taught about creatures and managed to teach Harry a spell. Although the fact he got his class to confront a boggart in front of each other, displaying their greatest fears for everyone else to see, calls that into question.

Edit: Barty Crouch junior was creepy and dangerous, but I don't remember him being a great teacher. Although the only lesson I can recall was exposition on the unforgivable's, so maybe off screen he was a great teacher? (Y'know, apart from the wanting to murder his students thing).

 

[Coda]

I suspect that Snape was reasonably competent at making sure his students learned the material. He sucked at everything else that a modern teacher is expected to do, but I have no doubt that most students know how to make potions after taking his class.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Minerva, Flitwick and Sprout. Although depending on your head-canon, none of them are competent what with all the problems students had to solve or the danger they're regularly put in. Lupin could also be called competent, in that he taught about creatures and managed to teach Harry a spell. Although the fact he got his class to confront a boggart in front of each other, displaying their greatest fears for everyone else to see, calls that into question.

Edit: Barty Crouch junior was creepy and dangerous, but I don't remember him being a great teacher. Although the only lesson I can recall was exposition on the unforgivable's, so maybe off screen he was a great teacher? (Y'know, apart from the wanting to murder his students thing).

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Bardy Croutch in spite of being a literal enemy plant was the most competent defence against the dark arts teacher harry's year had, he actually did his job and taught them how to fight the dark arts and what they were. Unlike the other teachers who tip-toed around the subject. When his tenure ended all of his students where more capable of defending themselves which was his job.

we should remember his class wasn't about ethics or math or anything like that defence against the dark arts is a self-defence course at best and a military train program at worst.

EDIT:
Basically he showed them "This is what your enemy looks like, this is what it does and it's offensive capabilities, here is how to defend against it."

I suspect that Snape was reasonably competent at making sure his students learned the material. He sucked at everything else that a modern teacher is expected to do, but I have no doubt that most students know how to make potions after taking his class.

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What else is a modern teacher expected to do?

 

[Coda]

What else is a modern teacher expected to do?

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Support their students. Maintain a sense of fairness and decorum. Inspire not just skill but interest in the subject matter.