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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Coda said:
Let me tell you the true story of Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad.

A lady named Helen was waiting for her train. As a different train on the other side of the platform started to leave, a man carrying a box who was running late sprinted up and tried to jump on the moving train. A member of the train crew and a platform guard helped out, with the guard pushing the man as the crewman pulled him in.

Unbeknownst to anyone else, the man's box contained fireworks. He dropped it when he was being pushed into the train, and the fireworks detonated. This caused a tall weighing scale to fall over onto Helen, causing painful but non-serious injuries and leaving her with a stress-induced stutter for several months.

Who was responsible for Helen's injury?

Helen sued the railroad company, asserting that if the platform guard hadn't pushed the man, he wouldn't have dropped the box and none of that would have happened.

The court disagreed. While it's true that the guard caused the incident, he was not responsible for it: He had no way of knowing that the box contained explosives, and even had he known that he couldn't have predicted that it would have exploded from the fall, and even if he had anticipated that he couldn't have predicted that it would have knocked over an object that was more than ten feet away. The only part of that chain of events that might have been a foreseeable consequence was that the traveler might drop his box when being pushed onto a moving train, and that negligence (if it was negligence) wasn't the direct ("proximate") cause of Helen's injury.

So yes: cause and responsibility are different things. They're related, but the distinction between them is important and must be observed.
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To elaborate, what Coda is driving at here is the concept of actus reus and mens rea. Actus reus basically means the act or situation that is defined as a crime, like the act of homicide or the situation of possession. Mens rea on the other hand, basically means 'was the defendant aware of the possible consequences of his action', or rather, 'would a reasonable person expect what occured to be a possible/likely outcome of their actions'.

That's why simply possessing a drug won't get you in jail, the prosecution has to prove you were aware you had it.

If some other Lantern had come to Earth instead of Manga Khan, no one would be blaming/crediting OL. It's why he isn't to blame here either. Plus, what part of Khan's activities is contrary to the OLC's directives or DOx's orders? What Earth Law has he violated that justifies a response that would lead to a First Contact scenario going tits up?
 
thebishop8 said:
Which magical contacts did he screw up?
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Doctor Fate, and pissed of the King of Atlantis because he told him he had a son in the surface.

Then again Aquaman is an ass in this story.

He gets angry for Oh El telling him he has a son he knew nothing about? And then cuts him out of all the magical development he had been going?

Honesty why is the SI still working for Batman?

He is not on Earth half the time.

He really should quit the Team and just keep on friendly terms like Grayven ended doing.
 
Mr Zoat said:
No, he was angry because the SI didn't tell him when he first found out.
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And yet that's enough to cut him out to the point he has to look for magic users somewhere else?

Honesty it seems the SI needs to, funny enough, examine back his desires and what he has been doing.

There is no point is being part of the Team is he is not gonna be there half the time.

He is not part of the Justice League, why not quit the Team and just keep friendly with them?

That way he doesn't have to take orders from Batman.

And the whole thing with Aquaman has basically become a pissing contest over Oh El making him a favor of all things.
 
Paul stopped using Sephtian and his team because he gave them too much projects to work on.

After he came back from hell, which happened after he came back to Earth, Sephtian asked him to let them research what they already had and not give them more.

Aquaman hasn't cut off his access to Atlantis, at least before now, and he was pissed with Paul for not telling him about his son when he found out despite the fact that many people would want to know if they had children.

He's also pissed at Paul now because of the situation with Venturias independence, but he hasn't committed anything aggressive against the SI.

Orin isn't an asshole, he's just a very frustrated guy right now who is pretty reasonable.

Paul also developed a greater connection to his teammates than renegade did so he doesn't want to leave, at least right now.

The League may not also want to kick him out because at least by staying with the team they can know what he's doing some of the time.
 
As an aside, I wonder if every Paul plays Chaos (or T'au). I want to say no, and now I'm imagining what faction they would pick.

I imagine Raul playing Black Templars, rather than going for Khornate lists.

Indigo is going for T'au, holding on to the older lore and refusing to accept any of the newer stuff, prefering to see them as the good guys every imperialist power sees themselves as: someone trying to bring peace and prosperity to everyone under their banner, even those who oppose them.

Yellow also plays T'au, but he prefers the newer lore to the older stuff, which casts the T'au in a darker light, but has them actually growing as a power in an insane galaxy as they impose what order they can on their territories.

Mandate, who folded himself into the existing police-state power structure and just ran with it, would probably play Imperial Guard.

The obvious would be for Uplift Paul to go for Mechanicus, but I think he'd probably flicker between Tau, Necrons, Deldar, Mechanicus, and Iron Hands.

Anti-Green runs Lamenters, out of empathy for the absolutely atrocious luck.

I want to say Blue Paul runs Craftworld Eldar, maybe Ulthwe or Alaitoc, not Biel-tan. Ulthwe for the manipulation of insanity around them and Alaitoc for their internal culture. But I could see him playing Orks.

And I'm picturing Grayven playing Necrons, purely for the fact that they killed their gods, but with particular empathy for Trazyn the Insomniac, because Grayven also likes stealing random bits of shiny everywhere he goes.
 
Whenever Possible said:
As an aside, I wonder if every Paul plays Chaos (or T'au). I want to say no, and now I'm imagining what faction they would pick.

I imagine Raul playing Black Templars, rather than going for Khornate lists.
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Pf, no, Black Templars suck. And in my day, Khorne players used Codex: Space Wolves.

P.S. Earth 16 is in 2012. It's been 7 years since the Black Templars' last codex.
Indigo is going for T'au, holding on to the older lore and refusing to accept any of the newer stuff
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Tau are new. Necrons barely snuck in as a 2nd ed race.
And I'm picturing Grayven playing Necrons, purely for the fact that they killed their gods
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Not in my day, heretic.
 
Mr Zoat, I'm curious about an old topic related to Dr Fate and Episode 53: Falling Action.

I was browsing the DC wiki and on blue kryptonite page is said that "blue kryptonite radiation caused spiritual death" and on Nabu's wiki it is said that "his spirit resides in the Helmet of Fate", on prime earth wiki says "Nabu forged a helmet and imprinted his soul on it".

Would you think it valid that the SI could have used blue kryptonite to easily defeat Dr Fate?
 
MrSilent said:
Mr Zoat, I'm curious about an old topic related to Dr Fate and Episode 53: Falling Action.

I was browsing the DC wiki and on blue kryptonite page is said that "blue kryptonite radiation caused spiritual death" and on Nabu's wiki it is said that "his spirit resides in the Helmet of Fate", on prime earth wiki says "Nabu forged a helmet and imprinted his soul on it".

Would you think it valid that the SI could have used blue kryptonite to easily defeat Dr Fate?
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No. The wiki mentions that blue kryptonite had that description once and usually doesn't have anything to do with souls. If you want to futz around with a soul there are far better options than a rock that might only to something to bizarros.
 
Bluh, with She Ra recently finishing up I'm still disappointed that we didn't get a version of OL that wound up there.
 
Darko said:
Paul also developed a greater connection to his teammates than renegade did so he doesn't want to leave, at least right now.
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But he is not there half the time anyway.

Funny enough since Grayven base is in Earth and his daughter goes to school on Earth he is more available to help than Oh El is.

Unlike Paul, Grayven is a recognised leader on Earth, has pushed Earth getting more advanced and ready and actually somewhat reformed Luthor.

He also got to keep the Sword Of The Fallen, got to skip the crossover and does have more magical help than Paul does.

Yes Grayven got mind raped and didn't get the girl. But he got in harmony and now is dating Luna.

Grayven also acts more human like while Oh El acts like an alien.
 
Pinklestia said:
Unlike Paul, Grayven is a recognised leader on Earth, has pushed Earth getting more advanced and ready and actually somewhat reformed Luthor.
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It's kind of annoying, but I have to remind myself that Paragon's whole thing is empowering other people to bring about the changes he wants, in terms of innovation and uplift; if he did it all himself then it would be missing the point, and if Earth as a collective society needed him to do so, then in some ways they don't 'deserve' it.
Renegade shares broadly similar views- he did acknowledge the Light's point about the League possibly encouraging passivity- but he also has a clear goal of defying his nigh-unstoppable father, and has to be pragmatic about bolstering his influence and resources, which still includes a degree of delegation and networking.

When will we find out what Icon is up to? I'm not sure if this involves other League Members or not; my guess is he's getting in touch with the Co-operative.
 
DrThoth said:
When will we find out what Icon is up to? I'm not sure if this involves other League Members or not; my guess is he's getting in touch with the Co-operative.
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He might be getting back in touch with himself.

For those who didn't read the comic- When Arnus crash landed on Earth, the Cooperative thought he died. So they decanted a clone and then downloaded the latest Arnus mind backup from out of cloud storage. The Cooperative is a post death society. In the comics anyway, Zoat might not want them to be quite so impressive. A post scarcity post death society that can hand out kryptonian style superpowers as first aid makes cosmic conflicts rather hard to justify.

So Icon discovered that Arnus 2 had been living his life in his absence, which was a trifle awkward, when he finally got around to phoning home.
 
Stsword said:
He might be getting back in touch with himself.

For those who didn't read the comic- When Arnus crash landed on Earth, the Cooperative thought he died. So they decanted a clone and then downloaded the latest Arnus mind backup from out of cloud storage. The Cooperative is a post death society. In the comics anyway, Zoat might not want them to be quite so impressive. A post scarcity post death society that can hand out kryptonian style superpowers as first aid makes cosmic conflicts rather hard to justify.

So Icon discovered that Arnus 2 had been living his life in his absence, which was a trifle awkward, when he finally got around to phoning home.
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Is easy to make them less impressive since DC uses "clone degradation" so much it hurts.

Basically any clone will not only be inferior to the original but live less.

Even Kripton had that problem hence why they used clones to grow replacement organs and as soldiers instead to fully replace a whole body. And is one of the reasons why they later went with cybernetic body parts. The other was that since clones were legally declared people they just stopped cloning at all because they went in deep denial about being racists.

Same reason they self isolated in their planet. Too proud to admit they had been a war mongering planet conquering species.
 
Grimnar said:
Your arguments are shit. And as to why, I will explain it to you.



Let me lay out how causality works.

He pulls with Orange Light on the Ring Truggs is wearing, inadvertantly calling dozens of Rings and scattering about space.
While he isn't responsable for what the people do with those rings, he IS responsable for putting the Rings within reach of each of them. This is his mess to clean up, and the other character make it abundandly clear they expect him to do so.

OL reaches out the Guardians about the creation of an Orange Lantern Corp.
He captures Larfleeze and the CPB.
He recruits dox.
He introduces the Controlling Controller and Dox as the new leader.
He recruits optimal lanterns.

Without his unique involvement and investments the Orange Lantern Corp wouldn't exist. Every bit of good it does and every bit of bad is does is a consequence of his actions to a far more egregious degree than just calling those rings. As the creating infleunce the messes they cause are a result of his actions.

This is how Causality works. Action to consequence and so on.


To act as if this has nothing to do with OL is fucking nonsensical because he set all this into motion. And as is the case with the Rings, everyone rightly holds him responsable for actions he knowing and deliberately took. And this isn't going to be a one time thing. He created the damn thing and others will hold him accountable for his actions.
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Ok what precisely is his fault? That some random dude with an orange ring is coming out of nowhere offering disruptive goods and services in trade for useful technologies, contacts, and consultations?

That is exactly what OL already does, the lord lantern is just hammier about it.
 
Grimnar said:
He literally caused this to happen. They are here as part of a treaty he brokered, under an Authority he helped create, aided by a power he helped to spread.

Everything is 100% his fault and he needs to stick his oar in and Fucking Sort It.
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While everything you say is true, in his defence, Divine Patron: Eris, Goddess of Discord!

Earth having know about the possibility for decades and still being completely unprepared and flatfooted is something he has a problem with.

Honestly, this is something it would have been in character for him to arrange intentionally as a way to force them (the UN and governments of Earth) to get their shit together. Like an intentional act of devotion to his patron. Or a vaccination, because as alien encounters go, this is kiddie pool levels of softballing it. If they cannot handle this, the Reach (something he considers a actual future problem for Earth) will just steamroll them.

It happening so serendipitously without his specific intent doesn't make him more likely to want to get involved.

Honestly, I'm surprised he isn't cackling like a madman and munching on popcorn.
 
Pinklestia said:
Is easy to make them less impressive since DC uses "clone degradation" so much it hurts.
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Clone degeneration wouldn't make a meaningful difference without making other changes. They have infinite energy, and the technology to create matter from that energy ala Star Trek replicators.

Once the investment of making a record of Arnus's mind and body was bothered with, recreating him takes as much effort as Picard getting his tea by saying "Earl Grey, hot."

Yeah, the Cooperative are at the "oh that's just bullshit" level of technology. :)
 
Stsword said:
Clone degeneration wouldn't make a meaningful difference without making other changes. They have infinite energy, and the technology to create matter from that energy ala Star Trek replicators.

Once the investment of making a record of Arnus's mind and body was bothered with, recreating him takes as much effort as Picard getting his tea by saying "Earl Grey, hot."

Yeah, the Cooperative are at the "oh that's just bullshit" level of technology. :)
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They may not be that advanced in Earth 16.
 
Low Politics (part 9)
  • Threadmarks
    • 7th April
    17:51 GMT +2

    I transition forwards, appearing on the landing platform just as the jet's door opens. A group of the attendant robots-. They start to pile up and make a staircase with their chassis, but fortunately the LexAir jet has an airstair which unfolds from its doorway. The cheapest-bidderbots spot this as they're shoving one another aside for the honour of being the third step and collapse into a pile of thwarted disappointment.

    Mister Luthor appears in the doorway and sees the robots as they regain a semblance of organisation and line up into something that might generously be called a line-up. There are at least five different makes of near-humanoid robot, and those that share an origin look like they've had multiple generations of non-standard repairs and upgrades. No two of them are precisely the same. Mister Luthor doesn't have a puzzled expression on his face, but from the way his eyes linger and the way his face doesn't move I strongly suspect that he can't quite make sense of what he's seeing.

    Then he sees me, smiles faintly, and completes his journey down to the landing pad.

    "Paul. I had gotten the impression that you were attempting to distance yourself from this endeavour."

    "I am, Mister Luthor, but no one wants to listen." I nod as Ms Graves follows him down the stairs. "Ms Graves."

    "'Mister Luthor'?" He affects an expression of mild affront. "What happened to 'Lex'?"

    "I made my best offer and you turned me down." I look around. Big as it is, this thing is essentially a space-aged prefab and it's still under construction. I doubt that much of the inside is furnished. "And lied about it."

    "I'm afraid-."

    "Can we skip the obviously feigned denial, please? I understand why you feel obliged to make it, but I'm.. not-. I'm never going to be in the mood."

    Lex fans his palms in a gesture of mock surrender.

    "As you wish. Did the Security Council give you any idea of how they intend to handle the situation?"

    "Remember when you complained about the money the US government is wasting housing the artistic collection of the late Adolf Schicklgruber?"

    "Yes?"

    "I believe we are about to be amazed by their efficient decision-making. And I'm getting a painfully pointed lesson in how bad the cult of the superhero has become for Earth's command and control processes, so if you want to make me an offer, you're unlikely to get a better opportunity."

    I get a very thin smile. "Are you unhappy with your relationship with Ted Kord?"

    "There's only so much one man can focus on. And you were always my first choice." I look towards the entrance to the building-proper. "Are you just dropping in, or are they expecting you?"

    "I notified them that I was coming. I was told that I was welcome, but perhaps I misunderstood how welcome." He looks at the robots. "Does one of you have seniority?"

    One with mostly-red armour rotates its head to focus on him.

    "I am the longest functioning robot here."

    "Does that mean that you're in charge here?"

    "No, it means that I'm the first piece of equipment in the recyclers if something goes wrong."

    "I.. see. Should I take it that the ClusterCorp does not recognize AI rights?"

    "It's really more that it doesn't recognise employee rights. But they tell me that if I work really hard then in a century or two I might graduate to loading crane."

    "Of course, that efficiency thing isn't just limited to the Earth side. When you've got an absolute monopoly-."

    "Yes, I.. see. Meetings with aliens never seem to go as I expect them to. Perhaps if we-."

    "BEHOLD!"

    There's an explosion of orange light as Manga Khan appears before us in an interesting application of ring-based teleportation. The resulting light flare slides over my environmental shield while Mister Luthor, Ms Graves, the robots and the LexCorp jet are sent flying!

    I reach out with construct tethers, grabbing each of them and returning them to their prior positions.

    "Hm, good catch, Illustres! What do you think of making it a sporting event? I'm told that Earth's pay-per-view market is exceptionally lively!"

    Mister Luthor takes a moment to check that he's on solid ground, then adjusts his tie and straightens his suit. Ms Graves returns her cybernetic to its arm configuration.

    "Well, it's… Not illegal in Bir Tawil. But there aren't enough Lanterns to make it a team event."

    "So you think that we would need to have different divisions? Yes! Yes. That way we could have a widespread grass roots game."

    Mister Luthor's face.. freezes, his mouth slightly open and his left eye slightly narrowed, as if he can't quite believe what's happening. His eyes flick to me for an instant, then he regains his composure.

    "It's a fairly saturated market. Perhaps a limited test program first, to test the viability?"

    "Yes." He bows his head solemnly. "Boldness without intelligence is how we got fart apples. A worthy reminder."

    He somehow makes his armour shudder.

    "L-Ron! Take a memo!"

    …

    I look around, but the little gold robot doesn't.. appear to have accompanied him.

    "Product testing comes before wide-scale implementation!"

    "Um."

    "L-Ron?"

    The robots nervously rotate their heads to make sure that their owner's chief minion hasn't snuck in somehow. Receiving no response, Manga Khan stomps up to the closest.

    "L-Ron? Didn't you used to be gold?"

    "I'm not L-Ron, Lord-Lantern Manga Khan."

    "And shorter. I'm almost certain that I remember you being shorter."

    "I'm not L-Ron, Lord-Lantern Manga Khan."

    "And your voice was a different pitch."

    "I'm not L-Ron, Lord-Lantern Manga Khan."

    "And you had a gravity-repulsor rather than legs."

    "I'm not L-Ron, Lord-Lantern Manga Khan."

    "And a unified sensor array rather than those little faux-eyes."

    "I'm not L-Ron, Lord-Lantern Manga Khan."

    "And three fingers-."

    Due to the love of a merciful god, the communicator on Manga Khan's armour lights up, a hologram of L-Ron appearing next to him.

    "He's not me, Lord-Lantern Manga Khan."

    "L-Ron! You're in two places at once! I didn't know you could do that!"

    "You teleported without me, m'lord. I'll be down in a few minutes by shuttle. Please try to keep the monologuing to a minimum until I arrive."

    "Very well."

    The hologram shuts down.

    Then Manga Khan stomps right up to the robot so that it's forced to bend back slightly.

    "Why were you pretending to be L-Ron?"
     
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