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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

question (and apologies if this has already been addressed):

i've read in various places, including this story i think, that there are certain multi-universal constants, Darkseid being one of them, Highfather, etc... meaning that if Grayven's universe's Darkseid would somehow be killed, he's not really dead because he still exists in other universes and what really got killed was maybe like the equivalent of getting his pinky finger cut off. please correct me if i'm wrong on that, because it's what leads me to my question-

is Grayven the same? because our Renegade Grayven is really, originally, OL who then merged with the Renegade Universe Grayven in a big cosmic mind meld. OL and Grayven are now functionally the same person, their memories are combined, OL now has OG Grayven's insights into Apokolips' politics. is Grayven also a multi-universal constant (which i would think he is, since conquest is pretty ubiquitous), and if so, does that then mean that the Renegade OL is now part of the Paragon OL's Grayven? Renegade OL would be a drop in the bucket of multi-universal Grayven, but that drop would diffuse throughout the multiverse and now be part of the greater multi-universal concept that is Grayven, no?

i hope that makes sense.

Well, in canon, Final Crisis essentially says that the answer is yes, but in this story, who knows? Everything's been nerfed, so I don't know if that applies here or not.
 
question (and apologies if this has already been addressed):

i've read in various places, including this story i think, that there are certain multi-universal constants, Darkseid being one of them, Highfather, etc... meaning that if Grayven's universe's Darkseid would somehow be killed, he's not really dead because he still exists in other universes and what really got killed was maybe like the equivalent of getting his pinky finger cut off. please correct me if i'm wrong on that, because it's what leads me to my question-

is Grayven the same? because our Renegade Grayven is really, originally, OL who then merged with the Renegade Universe Grayven in a big cosmic mind meld. OL and Grayven are now functionally the same person, their memories are combined, OL now has OG Grayven's insights into Apokolips' politics. is Grayven also a multi-universal constant (which i would think he is, since conquest is pretty ubiquitous), and if so, does that then mean that the Renegade OL is now part of the Paragon OL's Grayven? Renegade OL would be a drop in the bucket of multi-universal Grayven, but that drop would diffuse throughout the multiverse and now be part of the greater multi-universal concept that is Grayven, no?

i hope that makes sense.
Nope.

New Gods in this story are just powerful demigods, not avatars for some higher self.
 
question (and apologies if this has already been addressed):

i've read in various places, including this story i think, that there are certain multi-universal constants, Darkseid being one of them, Highfather, etc... meaning that if Grayven's universe's Darkseid would somehow be killed, he's not really dead because he still exists in other universes and what really got killed was maybe like the equivalent of getting his pinky finger cut off. please correct me if i'm wrong on that, because it's what leads me to my question-

That's post flashpoint continuity.

As a rule (This story has used bits and pieces, like Kon meaning abomination in Kryptonese), we have no truck with post flashpoint continuity here.
 
question (and apologies if this has already been addressed):

i've read in various places, including this story i think, that there are certain multi-universal constants, Darkseid being one of them, Highfather, etc... meaning that if Grayven's universe's Darkseid would somehow be killed, he's not really dead because he still exists in other universes and what really got killed was maybe like the equivalent of getting his pinky finger cut off. please correct me if i'm wrong on that, because it's what leads me to my question-

is Grayven the same? because our Renegade Grayven is really, originally, OL who then merged with the Renegade Universe Grayven in a big cosmic mind meld. OL and Grayven are now functionally the same person, their memories are combined, OL now has OG Grayven's insights into Apokolips' politics. is Grayven also a multi-universal constant (which i would think he is, since conquest is pretty ubiquitous), and if so, does that then mean that the Renegade OL is now part of the Paragon OL's Grayven? Renegade OL would be a drop in the bucket of multi-universal Grayven, but that drop would diffuse throughout the multiverse and now be part of the greater multi-universal concept that is Grayven, no?

i hope that makes sense.
Did they steal that from Transformers?

Basically, none of that in canon here. As far as I'm concerned, each instance of Darkseid or whoever is only linked to other versions of that character in the same way that all other characters are. With the possible exception of Psycho Pirate.
 

Ah, the Dalek Sludge. Yes, they were very poo-like. No, I didn't make the connection. I don't feel that name-calling is necessary; it's been over a decade since that came out, and I certainly haven't rewatched it. (Though I liked some of what they did with Missy before her inevitable return to being the Master, that was later than Clara).
 
Ah, the Dalek Sludge. Yes, they were very poo-like. No, I didn't make the connection. I don't feel that name-calling is necessary; it's been over a decade since that came out, and I certainly haven't rewatched it. (Though I liked some of what they did with Missy before her inevitable return to being the Master, that was later than Clara).

Don't worry -

At "one", the city begins shaking; Davros wonders what's happening. The Doctor has two words for him "Moron" and "Sewers". Missy begins laughing. The Doctor has used Davros' own plan against him...

- it's not you being called a name there. ;)
 
Motivations (part 29) New
16th August 2013
10:39 GMT

"…just left." Karsta Wor-Ul glances in the direction of the mainland and snorts. "I don't know what they think they're going to find, but as far as I'm concerned they're not my problem any more."

"A way for anarcho-collectivism to work successfully?" I wave my right hand dismissively. "They've been given the minimal supplies the Green Lantern Corps gives people. If they make it, fine. If they don't-."

"Nothing much lost." She nods. "I'm more worried about them raiding us when their food runs out."

"If you can't beat them with kryptonian powers and the Doomsday, I… Don't know what to tell you. Do you want me to give you guns or something?"

She thinks for a moment, then shakes her head. "No. That would just make things worse." She exhales. "Alright. How did it go?"

"Ah… The handover went fine. One of the Dominion's middle managers turned up to make sure they were in one piece and not carrying recording equipment, then they were on the transport back home."

"Did you hide any recording equipment on them?"

"No, they'd probably have found it and then they'd know what our equipment looks like. And they'd probably class it as provocation. I don't want to deal with the Dominion more than I absolutely have to."

"So, that's it? They get to report back everything they learned-."

"No." I frown. "Of course not. We had the g-gnomes right there. We edited their memories so that they wouldn't remember anything."

"That's reliable?"

"Not completely, but they're pretty good. Unless the Dominion has a really good telepath they trust with high security work, those memories will stay gone. And even then, the g-gnomes added enough nonsense that they won't be reliable."

"And what about the spy? Lyla?"

"Ah…"

"Is she dead?"

"… No. It's…" I sigh. "Timaron law is based on Kryptonian law, right?"

She nods. "As far as I remember, for some things."

"Right, well, if a member of a human military did what Ursa Dru-Ka did, they'd be punished according to the full weight of the law, because any officer should know that they're not supposed to murder billions of people. But in Kryptonian law-."

"Legitimate orders." Karsta Wor-Ul nods. "A subordinate isn't necessarily going to know all the pertinent facts, and they're not qualified to make that judgement."

I nod. "The in-absentia ruling was that while she might have committed crimes against Krypton, the court didn't have jurisdiction over those, and all her lawyer had to say under Timaronian law was that she trusted in Dru-Zod's judgement. Not guilty."

"So she ran off with the dominators despite the fact that she wasn't going to get punished."

"She's guilty of absconding, but even Amalak wasn't going to bother pursuing her over something that minor. Plus there's a good chance that whatever the dominators are doing to her is worse then the punishment anyway." I shrug. "She didn't know that she wasn't technically guilty. I guess she… Weighed things up and decided to take the risk."

Karsta Wor-Ul nods. "What about Dru-Zod and Lyla?"

"We… Established exactly how many people Lyla had mentally altered."

"Didn't Kon-El say that her people were only weakly telepathic?"

"Yes." I nod. "The scans I took of her brain showed that the dominators have made a lot of modifications. Some I recognised from other telepathic species, and others… I guess they were synthetic. Whatever they did to her cells to accept kryptonian organelles may have helped, though I've got no idea how it worked."

"Don't look at me. I learned basic field medicine."

"If I need to know how it could have been done, there are people on Earth I could ask. But I don't."

The only reason I'd bother is if Kon wanted to know, because if we could do that with human cells… Or Martian cells, then one of his problems would be as completely dealt with as it could be. Or M'gann could get a fully kryptonian form, which could be interesting. But he didn't seem all that interested.

"Anyway, once we undoctored Dru-Zod's memories, we discovered exactly how much of his decision was his own and how much was hers."

"Did you find out when the Dominion put their gate on Timaron?"

"She sent them a message before Dru-Zod left, but they only put it in after Krypton exploded."

"Makes sense. Even then we might have detected them opening it."

I raise my eyebrows. "'We'?"

She gives me a flat look. "You know what I mean."

"It turns out that Amalak didn't actually know that much about his peoples' legal system. He was halfway convinced that Dru-Zod was going to get away with it."

Karsta Wor-Ul frowns. "I wasn't a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that if someone mind controlled you into doing something, you weren't responsible."

"If they're literally puppetting you, no. But it's not like on Earth where someone under telepathic influence could probably argue that they weren't responsible for anything. Kryptonian law -and therefore Timaronian law- essentially says that if you were probably going to do it anyway and only the details of the crime changed, then you're still responsible."

"So Dru-Zod's going to fry."

"Dru-Zod fried. That's why I'm here. I thought I owed it to him to watch, but I didn't particularly want to stick around afterwards. Kal-El felt the same."

"So I'm getting my ship back?"

"In a day.. or two. Once they're sure that the Dominators have accepted the settlement."

"But you did destroy the gate-."

"Of course we destroyed the gate."

"Good. And Lyla?"

"Didn't commit any serious crimes. Not against Timaron, anyway. There was some debate about what to do with her. She didn't have any interest in going to the Dominion. We could have sent her back to her original homeworld, except that she'd end up ruling it as goddess queen in a few weeks… They eventually decided that probation was proportionate."

"On.. Earth? With the Justice League?"

I take a moment to imagine that. No, those gits would probably dump her on me if it came to it.

"Ah, no, no. With NEMO. We all get issued with mind shields as part of our standard kit, and the whole 'biggest war in the galaxy' thing appeals to her megalomania. So that's one problem dealt with."

I close my eyes. I breathe in slowly. I hold. I open my eyes. I breathe out.

"And now, back to work."
 
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successfully?" I waves my right hand dismissively.

"wave"

"Not completely, but they're pretty good. Unless the Dominion has a really good telepath they trust with high security work, those memories will stay gone. And even then, the g-gnomes added enough nonsense that they won't be reliable
They already had one powerful telepath.
dominators has made a lot of modifications.
"have made"
take a moment to image that
"Imagine"
 
"So Dru-Zod's going to fry."

"Dru-Zod fried. That's why I'm here. I thought I owed it to him to watch, but I didn't particularly want to stick around afterwards. Kal-El felt the same."

"So I'm getting my ship back?"

"In a day.. or two. Once they're sure that the Dominators have accepted the settlement."

"But you did destroy the gate-."

"Of course we destroyed the gate."

"Good. And Lyla?"

"Didn't commit any serious crimes. Not against Timaron, anyway. There was some debate about what to do with her. She didn't have any interest in going to the Dominion. We could have sent her back to her original homeworld, except that she'd end up ruling it as goddess queen in a few weeks… They eventually decided that probation was proportionate."

"On.. Earth? With the Justice League?"

I take a moment to image that. No, those gits would probably dump her on me if it came to it.

"Ah, no, no. With NEMO. We all get issued with mind shields as part of our standard kit, and the whole 'biggest war in the galaxy' thing appeals to her megalomania. So that's one problem dealt with."

I close my eyes. I breathe in slowly. I hold. I open my eyes. I breathe out.

"And now, back to work."
I'm very curious as to how much Lyla can help and whether or not she'll ever be considered for OLC membership.
 
16th August 2013
10:39 GMT


"…just left." Karsta Wor-Ul glances in the direction of the mainland and snorts. "I don't know what they think they're going to find, but as far as I'm concerned they're not my problem any more."

"A way for anarcho-collectivism to work successfully?" I waves my right hand dismissively. "They've been given the minimal supplies the Green Lantern Corps gives people. If they make it, fine. If they don't-."
So a bunch of the former inmates just left once they were sorted out? I suppose that was an option - no need for them all to stay at the colony proper - but it does weaken the remainder...

"Nothing much lost." She nods. "I'm more worried about them raiding us when their food runs out."

"If you can't beat them with kryptonian powers and the Doomsday, I… Don't know what to tell you. Do you want me to give you guns or something?"
Honestly, if the colony can't stand on its own feet against that, there's not much hope otherwise.

She thinks for a moment, then shakes her head. "No. That would just make things worse." She exhales. "Alright. How did it go?"

"Ah… The handover went fine. One of the Dominion's middle managers turned up to make sure they were in one piece and not carrying recording equipment, then they were on the transport back home."
Little disappointing it ended so quick, but all the shooting parts were basically done.

"Did you hide any recording equipment on them?"

"No, they'd probably have found it and then they'd know what our equipment looks like. And they'd probably class it as provocation. I don't want to deal with the Dominion more than I absolutely have to."
Not right now, anyway. Once the Reach gets sorted...

"So, that's it? They get to report back everything they learned-."

"No." I frown. "Of course not. We had the g-gnomes right there. We edited their memories so that they wouldn't remember anything."
And their computer systems? No, I suppose tampering there would be noticed.

"That's reliable?"

"Not completely, but they're pretty good. Unless the Dominion has a really good telepath they trust with high security work, those memories will stay gone. And even then, the g-gnomes added enough nonsense that they won't be reliable."
That's taking a chance, given they had the time and knowledge to modify Lyla. Who's to say they haven't developed a telepath capable of unscrambling their memories in the decades since she was made?

"And what about the spy? Lyla?"

"Ah…"

"Is she dead?"
Still curious about Ursa, too...

"… No. It's…" I sigh. "Timaron law is based on Kryptonian law, right?"

She nods. "As far as I remember, for some things."
Ah, getting bogged down in digressions and explanations...

"Right, well, if a member of a human military did what Ursa Dru-Ka did, they'd be punished according to the full weight of the law, because any officer should know that they're not supposed to murder billions of people. But in Kryptonian law-."

"Legitimate orders." Karsta Wor-Ul nods. "A subordinate isn't necessarily going to know all the pertinent facts, and they're not qualified to make that judgement."
Though that puts a lot of trust towards the superior officer being qualified and on-task in turn, rather than mistaken or working for their own agenda.

I nod. "The in-absentia ruling was that while she might have committed crimes against Krypton, the court didn't have jurisdiction over those, and all her lawyer had to say under Timaronian law was that she trusted in Dru-Zod's judgement. Not guilty."

"So she ran off with the dominators despite the fact that she wasn't going to get punished."
Still hoping that Karsta actually has Ursa hidden away on board somehow.

"She's guilty of absconding, but even Amalak wasn't going to bother pursuing her over something that minor. Plus there's a good chance that whatever the dominators are doing to her is worse then the punishment anyway." I shrug. "She didn't know that she wasn't technically guilty. I guess she… Weighed things up and decided to take the risk."
Though while in their hands, she basically has to trust that they won't kill the golden goose that is her and her unborn child. And that's a big amount of trust for her to put in aliens.

Karsta Wor-Ul nods. "What about Dru-Zod and Lyla?"

"We… Established exactly how many people Lyla had mentally altered."

"Didn't Kon-El say that her people were only weakly telepathic?"
Before she got picked up by the Dominators, yes...

"Yes." I nod. "The scans I took of her brain showed that the dominators has made a lot of modifications. Some I recognised from other telepathic species, and others… I guess they were synthetic. Whatever they did to her cells to accept kryptonian organelles may have helped, though I've got no idea how it worked."
So she's actually fairly lucky nothing went wrong with the augmentations all these years. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot more people taken alongside her and she was the only survivor of the process...

"Don't look at me. I learned basic field medicine."

"If I need to know how it could have been done, there are people on Earth I could ask. But I don't."
Heck, it's probably not as useful as some of the crazier ideas folks like the Sivanas could put forwards if he asked...

The only reason I'd bother is if Kon wanted to know, because if we could do that with human cells… Or Martian cells, then one of his problems would be as completely dealt with as it could be. Or M'gann could get a fully kryptonian form, which could be interesting. But he didn't seem all that interested.
He's probably comfortable as he is. And maybe doesn't want to take the risk of upsetting that stable status-quo.

"Anyway, once we undoctored Dru-Zod's memories, we discovered exactly how much of his decision was his own and how much was hers."

"Did you find out when the Dominion put their gate on Timaron?"

"She sent them a message before Dru-Zod left, but they only put it in after Krypton exploded."
Playing it safe, of course. Long enough ago that the Timaronians were long gone and that the Kryptonians wouldn't notice.

"Makes sense. Even then we might have detected them opening it."

I raise my eyebrows. "'We'?"
To be fair, the Science Council probably wouldn't have cared by that stage.

She gives me a flat look. "You know what I mean."

"It turns out that Amalak didn't actually know that much about his peoples' legal system. He was halfway convinced that Dru-Zod was going to get away with it."

Karsta Wor-Ul frowns. "I wasn't a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that if someone mind controlled you into doing something, you weren't responsible."
Telepathy is always a complicating factor for things like these.

"If they're literally puppetting you, no. But it's not like on Earth where someone under telepathic influence could probably argue that they weren't responsible for anything. Kryptonian law -and therefore Timaronian law- essentially says that if you were probably going to do it anyway and only the details of the crime changed, then you're still responsible."
Honestly fairly sensible. If a little unconcerned with details. But then, they worked out that Zod would have done something drastic, it was just a matter of where.

"So Dru-Zod's going to fry."

"Dru-Zod fried. That's why I'm here. I thought I owed it to him to watch, but I didn't particularly want to stick around afterwards. Kal-El felt the same."
Not wasting any time, I see. And that's a fairly final result for him, at least for now.

"So I'm getting my ship back?"

"In a day.. or two. Once they're sure that the Dominators have accepted the settlement."
Surprised she tolerated them doing even that much. I suppose diplomacy is a bit of a game of favours, though. And doing this now makes it less likely anyone goes looking for their colony anytime soon.

"But you did destroy the gate-."

"Of course we destroyed the gate."
Not gonna leave something like that laying around to be exploited by anyone.

"Good. And Lyla?"

"Didn't commit any serious crimes. Not against Timaron, anyway. There was some debate about what to do with her. She didn't have any interest in going to the Dominion. We could have sent her back to her original homeworld, except that she'd end up ruling it as goddess queen in a few weeks… They eventually decided that probation was proportionate."
Hopefully with a suitably explosive punishment for playing up.

"On.. Earth? With the Justice League?"

I take a moment to imagine that. No, those gits would probably dump her on me if it came to it.
So cutting out the middleman anyway and taking her into custody yourself.

"Ah, no, no. With NEMO. We all get issued with mind shields as part of our standard kit, and the whole 'biggest war in the galaxy' thing appeals to her megalomania. So that's one problem dealt with."

I close my eyes. I breathe in slowly. I hold. I open my eyes. I breathe out.

"And now, back to work."
Ah well, space legal shenanigans were fun while they lasted.

And so the episode ends with a quiet chat. Bit rushed, but I hope we do see Clark getting checked over at some point. I guess it was a straight energy leeching, similar to what the Parasite would do. Getting zapped like that isn't a common thing for him, so he might be feeling a bit frustrated for a bit, perhaps... At least he got to take care of some of Krypton's unfinished business.
 
Though that puts a lot of trust towards the superior officer being qualified and on-task in turn, rather than mistaken or working for their own agenda.
While true, functionally it's not that different than how Earth military law once was, pre-Nurenburg as opposed to post-, and it worked reasonably well right up until the Austrian corporal with the funny mustache ruined it for everyone else.

Not wasting any time, I see. And that's a fairly final result for him, at least for now.
His name is Dru-Zod, not Benjamin Parker; odds are he'll be back at some point.
 
His name is Dru-Zod, not Benjamin Parker; odds are he'll be back at some point.
Not necessarily.

Lots of supervillains that die and come back in comic books are just dead in this fanfic.

Ras al Ghul, Bane, Queen Bee.

All of them died and so far they're still dead.

No one really has any interest in Zod living.
 
"wave"
"have made"
"Imagine"
Thank you, corrected.
Wait, that's it? How does Superman get his powers back?
She didn't remove his organelles, she just copied them and drained his batteries. All he needs to do is get back under a yellow sun and wait for a few hours.
And their computer systems? No, I suppose tampering there would be noticed.
There was a D&D/Harry Potter crossover I read a few years ago, where the muggle police were constantly getting confused as to why hooligans broke into police stations and destroyed their computer monitors but left the computer itself unharmed. This was happening because wizard aurors charged with enforcing the Statute of Secrecy were sort of aware that computers existed but had no idea that the thing with writing on it wasn't where the writing was stored. As a result, British police had significant records of magic-related crime that they didn't remember writing, which was a bit of a giveaway.

Dominators are good at computer record keeping. Dominion reports were getting backed up to the local command ship at the very least.
 
Wait, that's it? How does Superman get his powers back?
She didn't remove his organelles, she just copied them and drained his batteries. All he needs to do is get back under a yellow sun and wait for a few hours.

I agree that it was pretty ambiguous exactly what Lyla was doing there, though I figured that it was intentional and details of 'the cistern' would be expanded on later. If there's no intention of doing that, then a small insert might help to clarify things:
"The dominators called it 'The Cistern'. My body is adapting to mimic his strength."
 
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"And what about the spy? Lyla?"

"Ah…"

"Is she dead?"

"… No. It's…" I sigh. "Timaron law is based on Kryptonian law, right?"
'Timaronian'? That's how it's said for the rest of the chapter.
Also, Karsta asks about Lyla here, but then Oh El talks about Ursa, and she asks about Lyla again when he's finished. Was that deliberate?
"Right, well, if a member of a human military did what Ursa Dru-Ka did, they'd be punished according to the full weight of the law, because any officer should know that they're not supposed to murder billions of people. But in Kryptonian law-."
'Dou-Ka'
"She's guilty of absconding, but even Amalak wasn't going to bother pursuing her over something that minor. Plus there's a good chance that whatever the dominators are doing to her is worse then the punishment anyway." I shrug. "She didn't know that she wasn't technically guilty. I guess she… Weighed things up and decided to take the risk."
'than'
"It turns out that Amalak didn't actually know that much about his peoples' legal system. He was halfway convinced that Dru-Zod was going to get away with it."
'people's'?
"On.. Earth? With the Justice League?"

I take a moment to imagine that. No, those gits would probably dump her on me if it came to it.
That would be jolly good fun. She would be really annoying, but she didn't seem super evil.
"Good. And Lyla?"

"Didn't commit any serious crimes. Not against Timaron, anyway. There was some debate about what to do with her. She didn't have any interest in going to the Dominion. We could have sent her back to her original homeworld, except that she'd end up ruling it as goddess queen in a few weeks… They eventually decided that probation was proportionate."
She did make Dru-Zod attack Timaron rather than some other planet. Even if that's not considered a serious crime (which I find mildly surprising but certainly possible), I imagine that Amalak still despises her.
That was a great fic.
 

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