With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Vlad]

The problem there is as soon as they involve other countries it ceases to be an internal issue and the League has to get involved and I don't think they'd be able to handle the combined armies of all their enemies as well as the League

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If OL decides to pacify them I do not see it taking more than a hour for him to depower all the superpowered jungle people.

 

[Mr Zoat]

While I do generally agree the word terrorism has lost a lot of its meaning and severity, I'm not sure your replacement is better. I mean, which kind of piracy are we talking about here? Because if we're talking about naval piracy or some such, you're basically just talking about muggers with a budget.

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[DAT_NOOB]

Wait there's one factor we forgot to take into account, Overgirl is still here...

 

[Agumentic]

And as others have said before, the JL will likely ignore it, as subjugated natives rising against their oppressors.

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Theoretically just cause doesn't give them a carte blanche to kill hundreds of thousands and displace millions, which is what would happen if their plans come to fruition.

 

[Steelplaza]

While I do generally agree the word terrorism has lost a lot of its meaning and severity, I'm not sure your replacement is better. I mean, which kind of piracy are we talking about here? Because if we're talking about naval piracy or some such, you're basically just talking about muggers with a budget.

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I was joking-but-not-joking because pirates (that is, naval piracy) have historically been viewed as the enemies of all civilized people against whom it was everyone's duty to act. The reason for that being that they operated on the open seas, not strictly in the territory of any particular nation, and therefore everyone's responsibility to stop because they are in no one in particular's jurisdiction.

Meanwhile mere land-based terrorists are just criminals acting in whatever nation they're operating in, and arguably the problem of that nation to deal with. The rest of the world can make the judgment, as always, as to whether those criminals were right to break the laws they were breaking or not, but it's not the job of other nations to fight criminal activity occurring in the territory of one nation.

 

[Mquz]

I was joking-but-not-joking because pirates (that is, naval piracy) have historically been viewed as the enemies of all civilized people against whom it was everyone's duty to act. The reason for that being that they operated on the open seas, not strictly in the territory of any particular nation, and therefore everyone's responsibility to stop because they are in no one in particular's jurisdiction.

Meanwhile mere land-based terrorists are just criminals acting in whatever nation they're operating in, and arguably the problem of that nation to deal with. The rest of the world can make the judgment, as always, as to whether those criminals were right to break the laws they were breaking or not, but it's not the job of other nations to fight criminal activity occurring in the territory of one nation.

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But what if the terrorists have prominent positions in foreign 3rd world governments? You get what is essentially an international spy that's very likely to try large-scale sabotage on whatever target affects the entire western world.

 

[Coda]

I'm still weighing up whether or not it would be inappropriately creepy to PM the woman who made it and ask for a copy.

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I thought you already did PM her about it. I know someone did (and I thought it was you) and she seemed pretty open about what happened, so I don't see any obvious reason why a polite request for a copy (if she still has it, and I'm not sure she does) would be inappropriate.

 

[Steelplaza]

But what if the terrorists have prominent positions in foreign 3rd world governments? You get what is essentially an international spy that's very likely to try large-scale sabotage on whatever target affects the entire western world.

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The Danner Enhancile Tibes have no such positions, so either this is a war or they're criminals. If it's a war then the Justice League has a policy against intervention. If they're criminals, the Justice League might intervene if they want to, but are not obligated to if they approve of the crimes or do no feel that they could deliver justice in the situation.

Or to quote one of my favorite Orange Lantern lines when the Flash protested he had to arrest Konvict, "Are you a member of the League of Lawyers?"

 

[jonasquinn]

The Danner Enhancile Tibes have no such positions, so either this is a war or they're criminals. If it's a war then the Justice League has a policy against intervention. If they're criminals, the Justice League might intervene if they want to, but are not obligated to if they approve of the crimes or do no feel that they could deliver justice in the situation.

Or to quote one of my favorite Orange Lantern lines when the Flash protested he had to arrest Konvict, "Are you a member of the League of Lawyers?"

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You're looking at things very narrowly here, the second it becomes clear that the Danner Tribes are an organised group of people with a shared goal of tearing down governments, forcing people from their homes and deindustrialising half the continent they'll be labelled a terrorist group, which is very much within the Leagues purview as we've seen with Kobra

Also, if the UN puts pressure on the League to interfere in a situation then they have to do it since the only reason they can do their job is because of the UN charter and if people don't feel like they're holding up their end then they'll just withdraw from the charter

Plus, even if they could refuse they wouldn't because even though they'd probably sympathise with the tribes that doesn't change the fact that if they won it would have far far worse consequences than the other way round

 

[Ardy]

Why is everyone claiming they'll slaughter or displace millions, they explicitly said no one has to leave if they don't want to! There is going to be economic turmoil yeah, but that's not the League's purview

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Why is everyone claiming they'll slaughter or displace millions, they explicitly said no one has to leave if they don't want to! There is going to be economic turmoil yeah, but that's not the League's purview

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What happens when farmer john doe says "get the fuck off my property I'm not moving?" what about the poor in the city who don't want the city torn down?

 

[Stsword]

Why is everyone claiming they'll slaughter or displace millions, they explicitly said no one has to leave if they don't want to! There is going to be economic turmoil yeah, but that's not the League's purview

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Yes, a very generous offer that amounts to nothing in the real world.

No cities, no agriculture, the people will have the options of starving to death or leaving.

Rio alone has more than 6 million people in it.

 

[Emizaquel]

What happens when farmer john doe says "get the fuck off my property I'm not moving?" what about the poor in the city who don't want the city torn down?

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I guess it depends on if they care about the cities.

It seems that their primary goal is to stop the deforestation of the rainforest/normal forest for purposes like agriculture and industry. A green city concept could theoretically exist in those restrictions.

They would be very heavily limited in their ability to function, hamstrung by the lack of jobs that would stem from this, but it could work.

Eh, who am I kidding? Modern economies would crumble under that kind of stress. Unless Danner has some sort of plan that would let him overhaul the entire nation's economy to allow near-tribal living conditions (assuming that they allow cities, but don't want industry beyond a power plant) I don't see it working.

 

[jonasquinn]

Why is everyone claiming they'll slaughter or displace millions, they explicitly said no one has to leave if they don't want to! There is going to be economic turmoil yeah, but that's not the League's purview

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Puttig aside the fact that a war on that scale will kill thousands just as a side effect, the elder explicitly said that they want to tear down all industry and replace it with jungle

Which means their offer basically comes down to "You can keep living here but it will be in a hut in the jungle, cut off from the outside world and with none of the amenities that come from modern life"

When given the choice between living in a third world country after everything you knew and loved was stripped away by a bunch of random superpowered luddites or just moving somewhere else, the vast majority of people will choose the latter and most of the people who do the former will do so with the intent of fucking over the tribals somehow

So yeah, the tribes winning results in a humanitarian crisis on a scale that the worlds never seen

 

[oct9010]

It seems like the comment thread has focused on the idea of Brazil calling in the League, but if I were OL / Hugo / Dawn Warrior, I would be a lot more concerned about Brazil calling up China and asking for a favor. An army of Danner enhanciles < Ghost Fox Killer and Celestial Archer.

 

[PDV]

I'm a little surprised that OL didn't point out that what they're asking for is absurd and that they need to be at least willing to be more realistic

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He did, but Britishly enough that they didn't notice.

Yeah, not likely. The Brazillian, Columbian, Ecuadoran, etc governments will tell their armies to mobilize, and they'll start napalming and gassing the rainforest.

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And at that point the Justice League come in on the tribal side.
The tribes probably could beat just Brazil, but Brazil would get desperate before they went down. Against the coalition of aggrieved countries the tribes would lose, but, again, the governments would get desperate. And if they resort to desperate measures, the JL stop helping, if they already started, or join the other side, if they'd stayed out (and maybe even switch sides outright).

I mean, which kind of piracy are we talking about here? Because if we're talking about naval piracy or some such, you're basically just talking about muggers with a budget.

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Piracy is in international waters, but also, piracy interferes with reliable international trade. And if you make international trade unreliable, a lot of the stabilizing forces that maintain peace break down. The US Navy has guaranteed the free flow of trade in international waters for most of a century now, and it's generally agreed by both political science people and economists that was instrumental in the long peace we've had for most of that time.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

And at that point the Justice League come in on the tribal side.
The tribes probably could beat just Brazil, but Brazil would get desperate before they went down. Against the coalition of aggrieved countries the tribes would lose, but, again, the governments would get desperate. And if they resort to desperate measures, the JL stop helping, if they already started, or join the other side, if they'd stayed out (and maybe even switch sides outright).

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Why would they come in on the tribal side, if hypothetically the league doesn't help brazil claiming it's a civil war well... there are civil wars going on that use chemical weapons that the league don't involve themselves in. (IK napalm is different from chemical weapons but I don't really see the difference in this context)

 

[Prince Charon]

Away with your anarcho-primitivism.

These crazies need to be crushed. Just let Overgirl off her leash and be done with it.

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... when your solution is to unleash a Nazi on someone, you need a new solution.

 

[Darko]

Make sure that the nazis are your final solution.

I just had to say this I'm sorry.

 

[ForeverShogo]

Look, she's the only person there other than Paul himself who wouldn't be squeamish about stopping these lunatic tribes. The rest of the hero community isn't really big on that lethal force thing, and I'm pretty sure lethal force is going to be required at some point.

Danner Formula or not, their demands are psychotic.

But maybe cooler heads will prevail and they'll accept a significantly smaller chunk of land. After all, these tribes account for less than a percent of the population of Brazil.

Oh, and for my own tasteless joke . . . Insert something about not needing a new solution when you have the final solution.

 

[hkim]

Make sure that the nazis are your final solution.

I just had to say this I'm sorry.

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Bless you sir, for taking that bullet. If it wasn't you, it would have been me. And that would be awful.

 

[Mr Zoat]

18th March
15:55 GMT -3

The Brazilian Minister for National Integration is pacing, his somewhat panicked eyes occasionally glancing at the map I've placed on the desk of the room we were eventually shown into. I suppose you can't give an emergency appointment with a cabinet minister to just any Justice League affiliate who flies up to the ministry building and asks for one. They'd never get anything-

"This is insane!"

-done.

"Unreasonable, perhaps. Insane, no."

"We would have to evacuate millions of people!" I nod. "They're expecting us to tear up billions of dollars of government and private property!"

"I believe that they're happy to take care of that themselves."

I haven't told him about the demands that they're planning on making of the other countries, but I'm sure that he's intelligent enough to guess.

"They're tearing down everything the people of Brazil have built! People won't want to stay there when there are no schools, no water and they have to.. hunt for their food! Where do they think they're going to go?!"

"I think their answer would be 'back to Portugal'."

"I don't come from Portugal! I've never even been to Portugal! And neither do most of the people they're planning to throw out of their homes!"

"They're not directly threatening anyone. From what they told me, they're happy for anyone who lives there to stay. Ideally, from their point of view, a few map lines will move."

"Yes, few robbers start a fight if you just give them everything they want!" He stops pacing. "When is the Justice League getting here?"

"They're not. I mean, you can appeal to them directly, but by default this is covered by the 'internal political affairs' restriction on their charter."

He stares at me, his eyes growing a little vacant as he tries to remember the exact wording. And he sags slightly as he realises that I'm probably right.

"Who is leading this?"

"As far as I saw, a group of Accala tribal elders. Though there's a good chance that they'll defer to Hugo Danner now that he's back with them."

"Hugo D-? If it's really him then he's a wanted fugitive!"

"I'm… Afraid not. Basically, your security services lost track of which prison was holding him, and… The Governor of Goiás signed a legitimate medical release for a catatonic American prisoner of unknown identity a little over a year ago. I don't think he ever got a proper trial, either. You could try arguing it, but three members of the Justice League were here during his original putsch attempt as part of the All-Star Squadron.. and… I don't think they'll be enthusiastic."

I should have noticed the coincidental timing of Diana's return to Themyscira before now, but she never mentioned Brazil when I asked about it. I suppose that it might not have been the main reason for her. Back when the Amazons were living on the Greek mainland disease would have been a much bigger part of warfare than it is now, so it's likely that the stories she got growing up made her someone more inured to seeing it.

"Then how-?"

The doors to the conference room burst open as civil servants, senior military officers and about a third of the Brazilian cabinet swarm in. Including-.

"Mister President-."

"Miguel, what the fuck is going on?"

The bewildered President of the Federative Republic of Brazil stares at the Minister, then at the map, then back to the Minister. I note that while the gaggle of governmentarians contains all of those I would expect to be present during a military crisis, quite a few look like they were pulled away from other tasks and had to run here. Uniforms are dishevelled, untucked or unbuttoned and there's a decent amount of perspiration and panting.

At least they're taking this seriously.

"One of the deep jungle tribes has been giving its people super strength for the last fifty years and they're threatening… Everything."

"Can they do it?" He looks around as people begin taking seats in order of seniority. "Can they just.. take this?"

The senior general looks at me. "'Super strong' as in they all use something like Venom, or is it more like Superman?"

"Like Hugo Danner. They're far stronger than someone using Venom would be."

"Mm. How many?"

"Hundreds. Essentially, their whole population except for the very oldest are augmented."

"Then… Yes, Mister President. They can. And striking against them would be difficult."

The President grimaces, then takes the position at the head of the table.

"The Justice League?"

National Integration shakes his head. "Internal Brazilian political matter."

"Orange Lantern."

"Mister President?"

"What would it take for the Orange Lantern Corps to assist us?"

That's-. Would Dox..? LEGION is going to be recruiting, but… Even if the entire population of Brazil signed up, it still wouldn't be worth the level of force we'd need.

"The Orange Lantern Corps will shortly be going to war with an alien empire. I doubt that moving any Lanterns here is worth our time and I suspect that my superior would be more interested in acquiring the Accalas' support than yours."

"And they really want…" He gestures to the map. "All this?"

"I have no further information on their demands of the Brazilian government."

"Yeah." Beryl nods. "They do."

"Even…" He shakes his head. "We.. could grant a greater degree of tribal self-governance…"

"I…" I shake my head. "Don't.. think that's going to be anything like enough, but if you want that to be your initial counteroffer I'm willing to relay it. However, I would caution you that they don't get involved in government negotiations ever and a sufficiently poor counteroffer might result in them deciding to abandon negotiations and attack at once."

"Attacking what exactly?"

"Any military or government target they can reach, and they can outrun any ground vehicle and don't need roads."

"I… Can't provide an immediate answer. We will need to discuss this."

"Certainly. Would you like me to wait, or will you contact me when you're ready?"

"Are they going to attack now?"

"I don't believe so, but… Mister President, they don't need logistics. They can get food for a few hundred people easily just about anywhere and they'll be attacking with their bare hands. They don't need build-up time, they just need a 'go' signal."

"Stay in Brasília for four hours. We will have an initial counteroffer for you at that time."

 

[Darko]

Either this will go to shit like with the renegade and Mars, or who knows it may work.

 

[Prince Charon]

The Brazilian government at least seems willing to negotiate, rather than immediately calling the army and telling them to open up the war crimes cabinet and get the nerve gas out, so this has a decent chance of going well.

 

[moralrelativity]

her someone more endured to seeing it

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Not 'endured', I think the word you need is 'inured' (definition: accustom (someone) to something, especially something unpleasant).

 

[Shotiegun11]

The Brazilian government at least seems willing to negotiate, rather than immediately calling the army and telling them to open up the war crimes cabinet and get the nerve gas out, so this has a decent chance of going well.

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There are Superheros in the room.

Give it time.

 

[Prince Charon]

There are Superheros in the room.

Give it time.

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I'm trying to be optimistic. I don't have a lot of practice at it (though I do have some).

 

[Mr Zoat]

Not 'endured', I think the word you need is 'inured' (definition: accustom (someone) to something, especially something unpleasant).

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Flux Casey]

The Brazilian government at least seems willing to negotiate, rather than immediately calling the army and telling them to open up the war crimes cabinet and get the nerve gas out, so this has a decent chance of going well.

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Mm. I mean it remains to be seen whether the Accala really did mean for their demands to be an excessive negotiating position, or whether OL was just being hopeful and naive. But yes, Brazil seem to at least be willing to sit at the table.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

The Brazilian Minister for National Integration is pacing, his somewhat panicked eyes occasionally glancing at the map I've placed on the desk of the room we were eventually shown into. I suppose you can't give an emergency appointment with a cabinet minister to just any Justice League affiliate who flies up to the ministry building and asks for one. They'd never get anything-

"This is insane!"

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Getting the old runaround, eh? Understandable, but rude...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

-done.

"Unreasonable, perhaps. Insane, no."

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And likely to take the government's silence as refusal...

"We would have to evacuate millions of people!" I nod. "They're expecting us to tear up billions of dollars of government and private property!"

"I believe that they're happy to take care of that themselves."

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At least to anything they don't like... This could be quite the mess.

I haven't told him about the demands that they're planning on making of the other countries, but I'm sure that he's intelligent enough to guess.

"They're tearing down everything the people of Brazil have built! People won't want to stay there when there are no schools, no water and they have to.. hunt for their food! Where do they think they're going to go?!"

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I don't think they care, other than 'Away.'

"I think their answer would be 'back to Portugal'."

"I don't come from Portugal! I've never even been to Portugal! And neither do most of the people they're planning to throw out of their homes!"

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Heh. A nice variation of "Go back where you came from!" "But this is where I came from!"

"They're not directly threatening anyone. From what they told me, they're happy for anyone who lives there to stay. Ideally, from their point of view, a few map lines will move."

"Yes, few robbers start a fight if you just give them everything they want!" He stops pacing. "When is the Justice League getting here?"

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You're assuming they're allowed to interfere? Superheroes usually don't come down on these sort of things...

"They're not. I mean, you can appeal to them directly, but by default this is covered by the 'internal political affairs' restriction on their charter."

He stares at me, his eyes growing a little vacant as he tries to remember the exact wording. And he sags slightly as he realises that I'm probably right.

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Poor guy, he is not having a good day.

"Who is leading this?"

"As far as I saw, a group of Accala tribal elders. Though since there's a good chance that they'll defer to Hugo Danner now that he's back with them."

"Hugo D-? If it's really him then he's a wanted fugitive!"

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Uh, no? He's spent 60+ years in prison. By anyone's standards, he's served his time.

"I'm… Afraid not. Basically, your security services lost track of which prison was holding him, and… The Governor of Goiás signed a legitimate medical release for a catatonic American prisoner of unknown identity a little over a year ago. I don't think he ever got a proper trial, either. You could try arguing it, but three members of the Justice League were here during his original putsch attempt as part of the All-Star Squadron.. and… I don't think they'll be enthusiastic."

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Red Tornado, Diana and Alan? Most likely. Jay Garrick and Ted Grant might have been there back then, but they aren't League members... Can't think of any other surviving All-Stars...

I should have noticed the coincidental timing of Diana's return to Themyscira before now, but she never mentioned Brazil when I asked about it. I suppose that it might not have been the main reason for her. Back when the Amazons were living on the Greek mainland disease would have been a much bigger part of warfare than it is now, so it's likely that the stories she got growing up made her someone more endured to seeing it.

"Then how-?"

The doors to the conference room burst open as civil servants, senior military officers and about a third of the Brazilian cabinet swarm in. Including-.

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Ah, the actual politicians are here. Time to get started.

"Mister President-."

"Miguel, what the fuck is going on?"

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Boy, he's grumpy.

The bewildered President of the Federative Republic of Brazil stares at the Minister, then at the map, then back to the Minister. I note that while the gaggle of governmentarians contains all of those I would expect to be present during a military crisis, quite a few look like they were pulled away from other tasks and had to run here. Uniforms are dishevelled, untucked or unbuttoned and there's a decent amount of perspiration and panting.

At least they're taking this seriously.

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I suspect they think that their heads are likely to be the ones that roll, whatever happens...

"One of the deep jungle tribes has been giving its people super strength for the last fifty years and they're threatening… Everything."

"Can they do it?" He looks around as people begin taking seats in order of seniority. "Can they just.. take this?"

The senior general looks at me. "'Super strong' as in they all use something like venom, or is it more like Superman?"

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A sensible distinction to make. Venom, at least, can wear off in the middle of combat...

"Like Hugo Danner. They're far stronger than someone using venom would be."

"Mm. How many?"

"Hundreds. Essentially, their whole population except for the very oldest are augmented."

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This must be their worst nightmare: An enemy who is almost tireless, near impossible to track short of low-altitude spotters, can tear through defences with their bare hands, and have a quite large axe to grind with those in power... And the most effective response would involve war crimes.

"Then… Yes, Mister President. They can. And striking against them would be difficult."

The President grimaces, then takes the position at the head of the table.

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Good to see he's not panicking. Not by the looks of that Will.

"The Justice League?"

National Integration shakes his head. "Internal Brazilian political matter."

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Do you want to be the nation that sets the precedent of Superhuman involvement in internal affairs? No, I didn't think so.

"Orange Lantern."

"Mister President?"

"What would it take for the Orange Lantern Corps to assist us?"

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Now that's thinking outside the box... But I don't think he quite understands what he's asking...

That's-. Would Dox..? LEGION is going to be recruiting, but… Even if the entire population of Brazil signed up, it still wouldn't be worth the level of force we'd need.

"The Orange Lantern Corps will shortly be going to war with an alien empire. I doubt that moving any Lanterns here is worth our time and I suspect that my superior would be more interested in acquiring the Accala's support than yours."

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Super-strong/tough soldiers, who are blank slates for military training and could probably be persuaded by the offer of a colony world of their own? It'd think so.

"And they really want…" He gestures to the map. "All this?"

"I have no further information on their demands of the Brazilian government."

"Yeah." Beryl nods. "They do."

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Beryl! I guess she's playing Good Cop to OL's Bad Cop. Or Vice-versa.

"Even…" He shakes his head. "We.. could grant a greater degree of tribal self-governance…"

"I…" I shake my head. "Don't.. think that's going to be anything like enough, but if you want that to be your initial counteroffer I'm willing to relay it. However, I would caution you that they don't get involved in government negotiations ever and a sufficiently poor counteroffer might result in them deciding to abandon negotiates and attack at once."

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They would just laugh at the offer, methinks.

"Attacking what exactly?"

"Any military or government target they can reach, and they can outrun any ground vehicle and don't need roads."

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And you won't know they're there until the screaming starts.

"I… Can't provide an immediate answer. We will need to discuss this."

"Certainly. Would you like me to wait, or will you contact me when you're ready?"

"Are they going to attack now?"

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I think they're willing to give it a day or two. Catch up with Hugo, if nothing else.

"I don't believe so, but… Mister President, they don't need logistics. They can get food for a few hundred people easily just about anywhere and they'll be attacking with their bare hands. They don't need build-up time, they just need a 'go' signal."

"Stay in Brasília for four hours. We will have an initial counteroffer for you at that time."

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Ah, the wheels of government ever turn slowly...

Well, they're not immediately going for the military response... Presumably they're hoping to talk the tribes down, maybe to a 'cessation of all future planned clearing operations', at least. The problem is how that'll go down with the Elders...