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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

I don't agree with most of you guys, I really enjoy the Ophidian connection and the more mystical aspects of the Orange Light. Paul may seem overpowered, but honestly, we're more than 4m words in so that doesn't really bother me. If we were to transpose the serial's development onto a more standard fantasy series, we're not in the first installments anymore. Paul's main goals once he got his feet under him - of learning to use his powers with the League, of defeating Larfleeze, claiming the Orange Central Battery, and founding the OL Corps have already been accomplished. If he wasn't overpowered at this point, his growth would have to be so slow that it'd feel frustrating. We're at the point in the series where the real big bads of the entire galaxy are starting to line up, and for Paul to confront them he has to be strong.

Also, there's a lot of problems that can't be solved with a bigger gun, and those are also hella interesting.

Except that Paul has been at his present power level for over 75% of the fic. He didn't grow and reach it naturally, he got a sudden power spike and plateaued.

Not to mention it would not be glacial for him to develop naturally to where he is now. Frankly he could be half as powerful as he is now and still have experienced a bunch of power boosts.

Subspace pockets means that the traditional weakness of a limit in charge is gone. That is a tool that could be useful. There are no real downsides to him using the Orange light, when traditionally it's power was balanced by being less stable than Green Light. But here most of the lanterns seem to handle it very well, especially considering they are not exactly the exceptional like the GLC.

And you are right that there are problems that can't be solved with a bigger gun, but hte issue is that Paul is not coming across them. Most episodes have Paul curb-stomping whatever he comes across. Most of the time is him talking to people and getting info-dumps.

Plus a Power Ring isn't just a bigger gun. It is a supercomputer, fabricator, teleporter, and pretty much anything else you could ever need. Paul at his power level can't be stopped by very much except for something with raw power given that he can go around almost anything else.

The only things that have held him still are Grayven and the insane Green Lantern who was pure will. Both of whom are metaphysically more powerful than him. The conflicts are still fights. He has no real opposition in most of his efforts, and he isn't really getting conflicts that play against his strengths.
 
Except that Paul has been at his present power level for over 75% of the fic. He didn't grow and reach it naturally, he got a sudden power spike and plateaued.

Not to mention it would not be glacial for him to develop naturally to where he is now. Frankly he could be half as powerful as he is now and still have experienced a bunch of power boosts.

Subspace pockets means that the traditional weakness of a limit in charge is gone. That is a tool that could be useful. There are no real downsides to him using the Orange light, when traditionally it's power was balanced by being less stable than Green Light. But here most of the lanterns seem to handle it very well, especially considering they are not exactly the exceptional like the GLC.

And you are right that there are problems that can't be solved with a bigger gun, but hte issue is that Paul is not coming across them. Most episodes have Paul curb-stomping whatever he comes across. Most of the time is him talking to people and getting info-dumps.

Plus a Power Ring isn't just a bigger gun. It is a supercomputer, fabricator, teleporter, and pretty much anything else you could ever need. Paul at his power level can't be stopped by very much except for something with raw power given that he can go around almost anything else.

The only things that have held him still are Grayven and the insane Green Lantern who was pure will. Both of whom are metaphysically more powerful than him. The conflicts are still fights. He has no real opposition in most of his efforts, and he isn't really getting conflicts that play against his strengths.
Don't forget the Spell Eaters which render magic all but useless against him.

And the magic tattoos that render him invisable to almost everything.

And the Magic ring AI that bypasses the other big limitation of power rings. IE that you need to be able to invision and hold in your mind every piece of what you want to make.
 
Back Door (part 15)
9th July 2012
06:41 GMT


"Should have seen that happening, really."

Lantern Gozzi nods as she examines a floating chunk of debris.

"Because they were contaminated by talking to you, and you implied that you could follow them if they returned home. Of course."

"The only thing that surprises me now is how fast they were able to rig their ships to explode. That sort of system would be a liability in combat."

"Perhaps they assume that their assault forces won't be returning."

"I'd be surprised. This is a lot of mass of ship to write off that casually."

"Just the crew, then? Ah."

I pause my own scanning. As far as I can tell, they projected a distortion effect into their own superstructure, causing their fuel reserves to undergo nuclear fusion. The area around what I think are the fuel reserves is… Gone. Reduced to slag. Other parts of the ship are somewhat intact but they either borrowed Reach Lantern-defying technology or developed it independently. It's still quicker for Lantern Gozzi and I to go through this piece by piece than call in a L.E.G.I.O.N. salvage team.

"Anything useful?"

"A part of their communication system. It appears to have been furthest from the centre of the explosion. If I can get some idea of their range, we can narrow down how close their main fleet is."

A reasonable idea. Even with systems that can communicate instantly, there are usually some limitations. L.E.G.I.O.N. doesn't have that problem and the Reach get around it with a somewhat energy intensive system for long distance communication. Most species don't have that advantage.

I'm reminded of a scene from 'Down Periscope'. Kelsey Grammer's character fakes being unable to perform a piece of navigation in order to trick a member of his submarine's crew into thinking that their special skills are crucial and so gain the confidence they'd previously lacked. Near the end of the film the member of the crew works it out, but since they'd completed the task successfully it didn't matter.

A flotilla was destroyed here, far from a living world. The souls of the dead might make it to the world we were protecting eventually, but right now they're swarming about us in the confusion of the recently dead.

And I can see them.

It's never really come up before. On a living world souls generally go to their final rest a little quicker than this. When I destroy ships I usually just move on, or leave the spiritual aspect to Lord Hades.

But I can't shield entire systems. Even if whoever was in charge of these ships did actually send a message back about the level of resistance they encountered, we've got no guarantee that it will amount to more than a mild pause. Perhaps just an information bulletin. I can't afford to not offer-.

"I believe that I have them."

"From a broken communication device?"

"No, from a number of factors, of which this debris is only one. I assume that you're following your cultural imperative and 'letting me work it out for myself'?"

"Not exactly. I was just wondering how long I should leave it before doing something that I'm reasonably confident will get us the location. Would you-?"

"Their souls. You can.. see them?"

"If I unfocus a little. Jade's reluctant, but I do strongly recommend picking a religion and leaving your executor some sort of instruction on where you want your remains interred."

"I've always known that Colu was mystically inert, but I assumed that arcane phenomena were limited to places like Earth."

"No. It turns out that 'inert' just means 'not very ert'. Everywhere in the material universe is linked to the Dreaming, and hence to magic. The souls of the crew are mere-"

I hold out my left hand, feeling the imprint in the Honden and pulling it to me.

"-wisps, but they still have weight to them."

They really are very simple things. I wonder… Is Lord Hades giving the souls of the aliens he judges complexity they never had before? Or is the lack of a connection what causes this? Are his new subjects integrating so well because he's effectively making them human?

"You may as well bring them."

"I'm not sure that I can. Certainly not safely. Using them to find 'home' would necessitate me not caring about them. So let's try your way; we can always come back if you're wrong."

"Very well. I've also notified the local L.E.G.I.O.N. assets that they can find these wrecks here to study in detail."

W-?

I nod. "Because they might have to fight them if we're not quick enough."

"Yes." She pings me some coordinates. "I think that it would be best if you accompanied me. They will probably have countermeasures ready and be in a high state of alert."

I float closer to her and grab her with a construct tether. "Probably best if you let me fly us there. My construct strength carries over into FTL speed. Armour up."

She nods, generating a construct version of Amalak's organisation's boarding armour.

"Two, one."

Space bends and-. Keeps bending? Why-? A trap, or-? Gravity, some sort-.

Flatten.

Space snaps back, and the rings show me the colossal wave of x-rays shooting away from the not-actually-all-that-small black holes I just jumped into, the generators being converted into vapour immediately. The ships are further away, the larger ones moving to interpose themselves between the smaller vessels and the oncoming radiation wave. They've got FTL sensors, then, at least in the larger ships.

Transmit.

Compliance.

"Alright try. Three out of five. I won't hold it against you."

Scans of the system show a large fleet, but it appears to be comprised entirely of warships. No tenders, no workshops, no docking cradles.

"But it didn't work. I want to negotiate with your government, and I don't believe that your civilisation can survive having the ships here destroyed as well as the raiders who killed themselves to try and prevent me finding you."

With the radiation wave having passed us by, I untether Lantern Gozzi and reach out across the void, flattening space around the ships as they try to alter it to increase their agility.

"I understand that you do not habitually have direct dealings with aliens. However, in this instance the price of not doing so will be the discontinuation of your people as a technologically sophisticated species. Which means that you will no longer be able to flee the Reach. If you choose not to speak with me, you will immediately receive the worst option. Continuing as you are is thoroughly off the table."

"Speak to me or I start shooting."



"We will hear you."
 
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Impressive growth of your spiritual abilities.

I've always known that Colu was mystically inert

That's probably not fully true, seeing as Dox seems to have some sensory abilities.

Granted he could be unusually strong in the magic department compared to other Coluans.

Are his new subjects integrating so well because he's effectively making them human?

Or he puts some kind of spell on them that makes them cooperative and less prone to hostility, but letting other personality traits remain.

I'm not sure that I can. Certainly not safely. Using them to find 'home' would necessitate me not caring about them. So let's try your way; we can always come back if you're wrong."

If he can bring souls with him then the Psion homeworld may be a good place to start.

I'm also imagining bringing Kori and Kom's grandparents souls to Erebus and have their family visit them.

people as technologically

'as a'


This will either end with them agreeing to all his terms or trying to kill him.
 
9th July 2012
06:41 GMT


"Should have seen that happening, really."

Lantern Gozzi nods as she examines a floating chunk of debris.
If they're crazy enough to have suicide devices in their brains, they're crazy enough to blow themselves up at the slightest hint of being tracked... The hard part will be preventing the next lot from committing suicide too.

"Because they were contaminated by talking to you, and you implied that you could follow them if they returned home. Of course."

"The only thing that surprises me now is how fast they were able to rig their ships to explode. That sort of system would be a liability in combat."
They're clearly clever, if nothing else. A pity it's devoted to killing themselves, or killing the inhabitants of the next planet they decide to move to...

"Perhaps they assume that their assault forces won't be returning."

"I'd be surprised. This is a lot of mass of ship to write off that casually."
Even if they were mining exostellar planetoids or the like, there's still a major investment of time and resources to build them... They can't suffer that kind of wastage for long, no...

"Just the crew, then? Ah."

I pause my own scanning. As far as I can tell, they projected a distortion effect into their own superstructure, causing their fuel reserves to undergo nuclear fusion. The area around what I think are the fuel reserves is… Gone. Reduced to slag. Other parts of the ship are somewhat intact but they either borrowed Reach Lantern-defying technology or developed it independently. It's still quicker for Lantern Gozzi and I to go through this piece by piece than call in a L.E.G.I.O.N. salvage team.
The equivalent of shooting a bazooka into their own gas tank... Or would that be a grenade into the ammunition locker? All a matter of scale. Obviously a lot more effective when you're using somewhat unstable fissile materials than simple gasoline, I suppose...

"Anything useful?"

"A part of their communication system. It appears to have been furthest from the centre of the explosion. If I can get some idea of their range, we can narrow down how close their main fleet is."
Lucky. Very, very lucky.

A reasonable idea. Even with systems that can communicate instantly, there are usually some limitations. L.E.G.I.O.N. doesn't have that problem and the Reach get around it with a somewhat energy intensive system for long distance communication. Most species don't have that advantage.

I'm reminded of a scene from 'Down Periscope'. Kelsey Grammer's character fakes being unable to perform a piece of navigation in order to trick a member of his submarine's crew into thinking that their special skills are crucial and so gain the confidence they'd previously lacked. Near the end of the film the member of the crew works it out, but since they'd completed the task successfully it didn't matter.
In other words, you'll let Gozzi get on with it herself, while you poke around looking stupid? :p

A flotilla was destroyed here, far from a living world. The souls of the dead might make it to the world we were protecting eventually, but right now they're swarming about us in the confusion of the recently dead.

And I can see them.
That... Is that a new development, or simply not worth mentioning? Because... That's kind of significant, man...

It's never really come up before. On a living world souls generally go to their final rest a little quicker than this. When I destroy ships I usually just move on, or leave the spiritual aspect to Lord Hades.

But I can't shield entire systems. Even if whoever was in charge of these ships did actually send a message back about the level of resistance they encountered, we've got no guarantee that it will amount to more than a mild pause. Perhaps just an information bulletin. I can't afford to not offer-.
"Caution: Alien defenders have exhibited a tendency to attempt to communicate. Do not engage the foreigner!" Yeah, I can see their leadership playing it down for morale purposes.

"I believe that I have them."

"From a broken communication device?"
One clue amongst many, Watson. Elementary, after all.

"No, from a number of factors, of which this debris is only one. I assume that you're following your cultural imperative and 'letting me work it out for myself'?"

"Not exactly. I was just wondering how long I should leave it before doing something that I'm reasonably confident will get us the location. Would you-?"
Like sniffing out their desire networks from the souls you sense?

"Their souls. You can.. see them?"

"If I unfocus a little. Jade's reluctant, but I do strongly recommend picking a religion and leaving your executor some sort of instruction on where you want your remains interred."
Yeah, even if you're not afraid of dying, knowing you'll be a cold lump floating in space (or a very hot clump of excited molecules going somewhere else very quickly) would be just a little scary.

"I've always known that Colu was mystically inert, but I assumed that arcane phenomena were limited to places like Earth."

"No. It turns out that 'inert' just means 'not very ert'. Everywhere in the material universe is linked to the Dreaming, and hence to magic. The souls of the crew are mere-"
Ugh, Robin rubbed off on you a bit there. So, this area is now slightly more magically active due to the extra energy of those souls? Not that that would last too long...

I hold out my left hand, feeling the imprint in the Honden and pulling it to me.

"-wisps, but they still have weight to them."
At least he has a trace on their desires now. If the leadership is comparable, it'll be easy to locate them from here.

They really are very simple things. I wonder… Is Lord Hades giving the souls of the aliens he judges complexity they never had before? Or is the lack of a connection what causes this? Are his new subjects integrating so well because he's effectively making them human?

"You may as well bring them."

"I'm not sure that I can. Certainly not safely. Using them to find 'home' would necessitate me not caring about them. So let's try your way; we can always come back if you're wrong."
It says a lot that he does care. I mean, Gozzi probably doesn't see much value in them, but his work with Hades has left him aware of their value... And I'm not just talking about as currency or anything like that...

"Very well. I've also notified the local L.E.G.I.O.N. assets that they can find these wrecks here to study in detail."

W-?

I nod. "Because they might have to fight them if we're not quick enough."
And if the rest of their fleets are like this, that's a very nasty sort of weapon to deal with...

"Yes." She pings me some coordinates. "I think that it would be best if you accompanied me. They will probably have countermeasures ready and be in a high state of alert."

I float closer to her and grab her with a construct tether. "Probably best if you let me fly us there. My construct strength carries over into FTL speed. Armour up."
Still wondering if she's still plying the usual skin-tight outfit of a typical Lantern, or if OL has gotten her properly armoured yet...

She nods, generating a construct version of Amalak's organisation's boarding armour.

"Two, one."
Hopefully this armour proves a little tougher than before. And that she's using the automatic dodging programs...

Space bends and-. Keeps bending? Why-? A trap, or-? Gravity, some sort-.

Flatten.
Huh. Sounds like these folks are honestly just good with gravity tech...

Space snaps back, and the rings show me the colossal wave of x-rays shooting away from the not-actually-all-that-small black holes I just jumped into, the generators being converted into vapour immediately. The ships are further away, the larger ones moving to interpose themselves between the smaller vessels and the oncoming radiation wave. They've got FTL sensors, then, at least in the larger ships.
And concern for their smaller brethren, I see. Even if it's only on a tactical level.

Transmit.

Compliance.

"Alright try. Three out of five. I won't hold it against you."
Mostly bluffing? That would not have been fun for his charge, as you-know-who pointed out...

Scans of the system show a large fleet, but it appears to be comprised entirely of warships. No tenders, no workshops, no docking cradles.

"But it didn't work. I want to negotiate with your government, and I don't believe that your civilisation can survive having the ships here destroyed as well as the raiders who killed themselves to try and prevent me finding you."
This is a pretty major assembly of naval power. No guarantee that it's their sole invasion fleet, but it has to be a significant chunk of their overall naval power...

With the radiation wave having passed us by, I untether Lantern Gozzi and reach out across the void, flattening space around the ships as they try to alter it to increase their agility.

"I understand that you do not habitually have direct dealings with aliens. However, in this instance the price of not doing so will be the discontinuation of your people as technologically sophisticated species. Which means that you will no longer be able to flee the Reach. If you choose not to speak with me, you will immediately receive the worst option. Continuing as you are is thoroughly off the table."
In other words, break your habit, or you will be broken. I see OL is losing his patience.

"Speak to me or I start shooting."



"We will hear you."
Sure, they'll hear him. But will they really listen to him?

Finally pinned them down, eh? Now to see what sort of racial character they really have. And whether they'll trust what he says... Because this can still go bad. It's hard enough to change habits of years. What about habits of centuries, habits so ingrained whole generations follow them as if they were normal? Or rather, because they are normal...
 
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Impressive growth of your spiritual abilities.



That's probably not fully true, seeing as Dox seems to have some sensory abilities.

Granted he could be unusually strong in the magic department compared to other Coluans.

I think it's the same process as with souls: hang around magic users long enough and you are bound to pick up some stray Thaums.

Re alien souls in Hades: the three judges are actually human souls. How do they judge aliens by their own moral systems?

And if a unified but "evil" species is judged, like the Psions, wouldn't they all end up in Elysium since by there understanding what they were doing was okay or maybe even morally necessary?[/QUOTE]
 
In other words, you'll let Gozzi get on with it herself, while you poke around looking stupid? :p

At least other people are doing things instead of just him.

That... Is that a new development, or simply not worth mentioning? Because... That's kind of significant, man...

We knew he could see souls and he has been using magic so he may now see ghosts.

the three judges are actually human souls. How do they judge aliens by their own moral systems?

And if a unified but "evil" species is judged, like the Psions, wouldn't they all end up in Elysium since by there understanding what they were doing was okay or maybe even morally necessary?

I think they're judging them by the Hellenistic system.

Though they may honestly admit some bad people into the better places seeing as some pretty bad people are already there.
 
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Shouldn't he have lost most of his rings charge protecting from that black hole bomb?
Seems intuitively so. Of course, black holes are just curving spacetime, which is what they use for FTL, and if it was an artificial black hole, which was my read, it might not have had much in the way off mass=energy.

So he wasn't fighting the mass of a large sun, just the engines of the fleet he's facing.
 
Mostly bluffing? That would not have been fun for his charge, as you-know-who pointed out...

Eh, it really depends on the type of blackhole used. While I don't know enough to really say anything about natural ones an artificial one is probably coming from either graviton manipulation, or any other suitably technobabbly explanation, which equates more to "really strong gravitywell" instead of "artificial singularity", or by just shoving enough energy into one spot until it makes a blackhole, which is only really possible because entropy is for losers with the kind of tech in DC.

It wouldn't be cheap in any case, but the graviton option, which seems the most likely given what else we've seen of these lads, would be a rather negligible cost compared to actually swatting a singularity out of existence.

Though the amount of charge used hardly matters since Paragon has time to recharge now anyways.
 
It's kind of funny how the Ring's have gained so much more power capacity since they were first introduced in this fic...
 
The equivalent of emptying a pistol into their own gas tank.
I know we've all seen the result of that thousands of times in movies. A big fireball with the hero or heroine diving away in the nick of time. But real life ain't like that. Gasoline explosions require gasoline vapour in air and a source of ignition. Emptying a pistol into a gas tank isn't enough on it's own.
 
I think they're judging them by the Hellenistic system.

Though they may honestly admit some bad people into the better places seeing as some pretty bad people are already there.

I suspect Hades is prepared to offer a certain lenience for actions aliens due that makes context with their own biologies.
 
Seems intuitively so. Of course, black holes are just curving spacetime, which is what they use for FTL, and if it was an artificial black hole, which was my read, it might not have had much in the way off mass=energy.

So he wasn't fighting the mass of a large sun, just the engines of the fleet he's facing.

It's kind of funny how the Ring's have gained so much more power capacity since they were first introduced in this fic...

It's kind of funny how reading responses can clear things up.
 
I know we've all seen the result of that thousands of times in movies. A big fireball with the hero or heroine diving away in the nick of time. But real life ain't like that. Gasoline explosions require gasoline vapour in air and a source of ignition. Emptying a pistol into a gas tank isn't enough on it's own.
Indeed... I kind of lost the metaphor in the writing of it... ;) Given the destructiveness of their weapons, I've tweaked it a little.
 
I'm reminded of a scene from 'Down Periscope'.

well my day has already taken a turn, and it's just begun

but right now they're swarming about us in the confusion of the recently dead.

And I can see them.

what? now wait just a damn...

Space snaps back, and the rings show me the colossal wave of x-rays shooting away from the not-actually-all-that-small black holes I just jumped into

alright, that's enough for today
 
Death is inevitable, but not necessarily swift.

Shouldn't he have lost most of his rings charge protecting from that black hole bomb?
Power consumption is inversely proportional to desire. Paul very much did not want to be sucked into a gravitational anomaly and he's basically the best in the universe at channeling that into a ring. (And importantly, he wanted to not be sucked in more than he was afraid of being sucked in.) It is one of the main driving forces in recent story arcs that he's trying to stop being so unique in that regard.

Power consumption is directly proportional to construct size and complexity. Paul is notoriously very good at finding highly efficient choices of constructs to achieve his goals. (Though Gozzi is giving him a run for his money on this one.)

So yeah, it was probably a bit spendy, but he's good enough at ringslinging to manage it and he's got twice as much charge capacity as most.
 
Exactly! Death is supposed to show up whenever someone dies, no matter where they are in the universe.

And Nekron runs the antechamber to the afterlife.

And Black Racer, as a New God, is the conceptual embodiment of Death.

And Lucifer in his own series was shown to be a psychopomp.

And the Question had to save Superman from a shaman assassin who acts as a psychopomp to send hit victims to a Hell that supposedly does no take backs, to prevent resurrection.

And the Black Flash shows up for speedsters.

And pre-crisis Death was a male Grim Reaper.
 
finally all caught up again! loving this arc, can't wait for more. I'm a big fan of Lantern Gozzi!!
 
It's kind of funny how the Ring's have gained so much more power capacity since they were first introduced in this fic...

Don't act like that's unique to this fic.

A Power Ring's charge lasts for however long the Plot says it has to. When needed for the Plot, a Ring's charge may as well have an infinity sign, when the opposite is true they may as well be a cellphone with a shit battery with how fast their charge drains.

That's true in this fanfic and it's true in comics.
 
A flotilla was destroyed here, far from a living world. The souls of the dead might make it to the world we were protecting eventually, but right now they're swarming about us in the confusion of the recently dead.

And I can see them.

"Peek-a-Boo I. SEE. YOU!"

Oh boy what a scary thought. There is no escape from Paul, not even in death.

We need more necromancer protagonists. Villain commits suicide to deny the Protagonist what he wants. Then the Protagonist just goes NOPE, raises the Villain from the dead, and forces him to give up the information.

"♪When I'm necromancin', everyone's dancin',♪
♪No one can stop me. I dare you to try.♪

♪The dead are infused with sensational groove♪
♪And they're coming for you now♪
♪There's nowhere to hide.♪
"
 
Don't act like that's unique to this fic.

A Power Ring's charge lasts for however long the Plot says it has to. When needed for the Plot, a Ring's charge may as well have an infinity sign, when the opposite is true they may as well be a cellphone with a shit battery with how fast their charge drains.

That's true in this fanfic and it's true in comics.

It's also decently well explained early on in the narrative, where it's discussed how the SI's constructs and effects are empowered by how much he wants something. The more he wants an outcome, the more effective, and consequently efficient, they become. He is currently notably engaged in one of his major long term goals and is sharing work with other Lanterns similarly driven towards the shared purpose of thwarting the Reach, so it shouldn't really come as a complete surprise that Ring Charge is currently a bit abstracted.

That's all setting aside...is the SI still dual wielding? While having an Enlightened, Orange soul with a main line to the Elemental Embodiment of Avarice itself? And the long ago sorted ability to carry his lantern in subspace for on-the-fly charging?

When actually was the last time ring charge was mentioned?
 

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