With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Mr Zoat]

And yet your recruiting a submarine based villain.

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And yet you had your character recruit a guy who previously mostly used a submarine.

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I could quote myself, but it seems that you're both pulling a Vaermina here. As I already stated, Mr. Hyde and crew have cross trained in a wide variety of combat environments. They generally deploy from a stealth submarine, but they have pilots and drivers, infantrymen, infiltrators and artillerists. They aren't a perfect fit, but that doesn't exist.

Given that this is a comic book universe, I wouldn't be surprised if that number is very high.

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No. It isn't.

Submarines are expensive and require a lot of support. The small countries who could fight wars after the Second World War generally didn't use them. Occasionally you got someone like Manta who managed to acquire them, but frankly they're not that attractive a prospect.

Also renegade has a lot of contacts and resources, so he may be able to hire humanoid aliens that have the same physical attributes and abilities as humans, and who have served and fought in spaceships, to teach his new soldiers.

By doing this he gets highly trained soldiers and avoids pissing off Atlantis.

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It also completely negates the point of the exercise: humans uplifting themselves.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Which they tend to do because a superior ordered them to do it.

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Trust me, every base has "That guy". Which can spread to entire platoons of "That Guy".

To say nothing of all the times soldiers on the field somewhere decided "Hey let's kill those people".

And of course you could argue that Kaldur killing Manta could be a defensive move to protect himself and his parents...and that's not even taking into account all of Manta's terrorist actions against Atlantis.

As I recall, Kaldur was uncomfortable/took issue with movies portraying Pirates in a positive light during a movie night with the team.

But back to the point. Soldiers kill. Everything else is just window dressing and justifications. There is no Honor floating around on the battlefield.

 

[Darko]

I could quote myself, but it seems that you're both pulling a Vaermina here

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Harsh words, but it doesn't exactly change the fact that renegade could have recruited other people that have done those things, and whose recruitment wouldn't piss off Atlantis, as well as other nations that may hate Manta.

It also completely negates the point of the exercise: humans uplifting themselves

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Maybe, though I think the fact that the Light uses alien technology, has received help in magic from a non-human from another universe, as well as an alien planet of sorcerors, and one of their members is an alien, or at least everyone else thinks he is, kinda makes that point a bit moot.

Hiring aliens to train them isn't them leaving the defense of the planet in the hands of aliens, but rather just getting some training from them and defending it themselves.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

pulling a Vaermina here.

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Gasp! He spoke the forbidden word!

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Kinda going a bit too far now don't you think?

Furthermore, it's less about the idea Zoat has, and more about Is is something Grayven would actually do?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Harsh words, but it doesn't exactly change the fact that renegade could have recruited other people that have done those things, and whose recruitment wouldn't piss off Atlantis, as well as other nations that may hate Manta.

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Have you made a claim about a fictional setting?

Have you failed to support it with evidence either from the story or from wider DC?

Have you continued to maintain this claim when the author tells you that you're wrong?

Then you may be pulling a Vaermina.

If you want to convince me otherwise, there's a fairly obvious path to doing so. Identify a character or group of characters in this story who have the required characteristics. If you're so sure that they exist, presumably you can do that? Or from canon material relating to the setting? Heck, if you can't do that you could at least mention a group from DC who have the required characteristics. There probably is one somewhere.

If you manage that, my response will be: 'oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about them'. Or 'I hadn't heard of them. You're right, they would work'.

Otherwise, you're pulling a Vaermina.

Maybe, though I think the fact that the Light uses alien technology, has received help in magic from a non-human from another universe, as well as an alien planet of sorcerers, and one of their members is an alien, or at least everyone else thinks he is, kinda makes that point a bit moot.

Hiring aliens to train them isn't them leaving the defense of the planet in the hands of aliens, but rather just getting some training from them and defending it themselves.

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The Light uses alien technology, but their core projects like magic and Lex's fleet don't. Their magic is taught with Atlantean notation and mostly by humans. The cosmic converter, purple death ray and cold guns are all Earth technology.

 

[nogoodnames]

There might have been others he could have recruited, but Black Manta was a known entity and potential minor threat. Gravyn and OL have both made points on what prison is for which ideally should be for rehabilitation otherwise why waste the resources. Is Black Manta a good person and should be rewarded with a pardon and stable job, not really but he is useful that is an utillarian ideal. Gravyn leadership style is if he is going to recruit someone he will make them the best they can be which includes dealing with interpersonal issues. Looking at the page for mercenaries on dc wiki there is Sky-pirate? As a potential recruit.

 

[Vorian]

Harsh words, but it doesn't exactly change the fact that renegade could have recruited other people that have done those things, and whose recruitment wouldn't piss off Atlantis, as well as other nations that may hate Manta.

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When has Renegade ever cared to avoid pissing people off?

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Yes but is it worth worsening relations with long time allies by doing so when other options not only exist, but are as abundant as leaves in a forest?

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Grayven is a dick-head is a LOOOOOONG established universal fact.

 

[nogoodnames]

Not to further the argument, as it must be annoying to be argued against actions taken in this story. I was looking through various DC properties mercenaries and came across Strikeforce Europa.

 

[Stsword]

Harsh words, but it doesn't exactly change the fact that renegade could have recruited other people that have done those things, and whose recruitment wouldn't piss off Atlantis, as well as other nations that may hate Manta.

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That's a false dilemma to begin with.

Gravy has access to the G-Gnomes who can and do impart telepathic training.

So Black Manta's "experience" is in fact completely irrelevant.

Gravy could have found aliens who actually has the right skills instead of making do with people who don't actually have the right skills, paid them whatever they wanted for training and have the G-Gnomes telepathically copy and paste those skills into as many humans as Gravy wants.

And seems that would have been a lesser hassle and greater reward, if the goal is as stated, to find people with the skills for space combat.

This being Gravy, well, being a buttinski or reforming Manta into a useful minion is probably as much a motivation as anything else, if not more so.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

This being Gravy, well, being a buttinski or reforming Manta into a useful minion is probably as much a motivation as anything else, if not more so.

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I should also point out, that Grayven could very well be pulling from his comic knowledge here. "Hmm, I need a guy to do X. Who...oh yeah, Manta can do X!"

Also, as a writer, I can tell you that you WILL get backlash if you use an OC instead of *insert any character*.

 

[Ardy]

Gotta go with the Vaermina side here. Grayven has G-gnomes and there are literally millions of discharged and bitter soldiers the world over with more experience in a given field that Grayven wants than Manta. Not to mention, just based on the veterans I know, not particularly loyal to their home nations. Better pilots who were discharged from the Russian military who will happily take a job giving experience either through in person teaching or via G-gnome for a quick buck, better marines from the US, etc. etc.

Yes, Manta's people have the closest thing to necessary skills available all in one place. Skills Grayven could have taken forcefully after breaking all their limbs and having the G-gnomes rip apart the minds of the mass-murdering terrorists. Not like it's the worst thing he's done. Not like it's the worst thing he's publicly done.

 

[Radix]

I should also point out, that Grayven could very well be pulling from his comic knowledge here. "Hmm, I need a guy to do X. Who...oh yeah, Manta can do X!"

Also, as a writer, I can tell you that you WILL get backlash if you use an OC instead of *insert any character*.

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Renegade has even pulled this before. Both him and Paragon. Recruiting Starfire and Blackfire? I mean Blackfire kind of works, but is also not exactly stable or ideal for what Paragon is going for. The focus on those 2 feels like a DC fanboy for sure.

Not to mention that Renegade already had Hyde in his contact lists as a legacy from Light 1.0. He had a resource, why not convert it to be useful? I doubt that he is the only one who can be a part of training the Space Fleet, but he definitely can contribute. No reason to only get one.

There is a clear reason not to use Aliens: mainly that this is an Earth thing. It would defeat the purpose to just take alien help with it.

And it isn't like this costs Renegade that much. At this point it only pisses off Arthur only slightly more than he was already, and gets him more favor with Clea. He gets a new operative, and another "successful" reform he can point to.

 

[Darko]

Gotta go with the Vaermina side here. Grayven has G-gnomes and there are literally millions of discharged and bitter soldiers the world over with more experience in a given field that Grayven wants than Manta. Not to mention, just based on the veterans I know, not particularly loyal to their home nations. Better pilots who were discharged from the Russian military who will happily take a job giving experience either through in person teaching or via G-gnome for a quick buck, better marines from the US, etc. etc.

Yes, Manta's people have the closest thing to necessary skills available all in one place. Skills Grayven could have taken forcefully after breaking all their limbs and having the G-gnomes rip apart the minds of the mass-murdering terrorists. Not like it's the worst thing he's done. Not like it's the worst thing he's publicly done.

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I may have a theory for why he's recruiting Manta instead of picking options that don't risk pissing people off.

Despite his disdain for the super community on Earth and how they run things, both heroes and villains, renegade tends to think and act like they do.

He does things that they would do even though practically there's no reason for him to do it, like that assassin guy told him before they invaded the Caligula Club.

Maybe he views Manta as belonging to the same group he does, and I'm not talking about the Light, but rather the superhero/supervillain group, so that's why he's helping him and is interested in him instead of say the types of soldiers you mentioned, who possess the skills but aren't part of the community renegade belongs to.

Just a theory of mine.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

This could also be simply put down as 'better inside pissing out'

Manta and his forces are an effective, rational(ish), high tech super villain crew that has escaped capture from the very active Justice League and Team. Along with the entire Atlantian Military, and every other sea going military up to this point. They are good at what they do to have lasted this long.

Sure they're not saints, but they're motivated, trained and human. The Light members that Gravyen work with on the uplift side of things are used to dealing with this kind of folk, and can related with them far better then most alternative sources of trained militants. No one's offering to hire Kobra for space crew men. The snake heads, at least the core fundamentalist types, are nuts. They're not hiring folks like the existing military due to the conflict of interest with their home nations vs the world as a whole, as covered a while back.

Between 'slaughter them all' generally not being League SOP, nor even UN standards. Manta dying likely means that the crews that work for him would find another leader or splinter. The latter would make things worse globally as they ramp up piracy with far less control then Manta has over them now. Jailing them all is an option, but at that point you've started a small war. Or escalated a pre-existing small war.

Grayven is redirecting some very dangerous people into a useful direction. Could he get crew elsewhere if he put in more effort....maybe. But that doesn't remove the threat that Manta and his crew are. And unless we want a repeat of what happened to the UK happening to Manta's people being Grayven or the League's news headlines....

 

[Mr Zoat]

12th July 2012
14:45 GMT

"Recognized, The Shade, Two Three."

The mild discomfort that comes from the zeta tube's illumination fades away in an instant, but long-accustomed habit causes me to mug for any potential observers. A blink, a stumble of a half-step and a tap of my cane against the deck plate as if reduced to feeling the location of the floor like a blind man.

"If it bothers you that much, why not just teleport?"

Though a sizable portion of the post-war period is a bit of a blur to me, I'm reasonably confident that I never met Blake before my induction into the League. Another recipient of Grayven's largesse, though in his case it involved less ecstatic joy and more a month-long recovery before he could speak without an Italian accent.

"I like having it announce me." I stroll towards the Justice League's round table, waving the head of my cane to Allen and getting a polite nod in return. "Acting as one's own compère is so gauche, but turning up unannounced..."

I shudder theatrically.

Though I suppose that if one is unusually bothered by gaucheness then one shouldn't take a seat amongst an ensemble dressed as circus strongmen and strongwomen. Every time I sit-

I sit.

-down in a suit I feel like I'm striking a blow for tailors everywhere.

As the other fag, Blake has the pleasure of occupying a seat next to me, which he duly does. Unlike most of our colleagues he hasn't assigned himself to any one city; I can well understand that he doesn't have any desire to return to the family manse when the entirety of said family are no longer with us. Rather, he's been working with Batman on tracking international criminal syndicates, flows of money-

And I admit I made a few rather rapid transfers myself after hearing that. Even brain damaged, he has a ferocious intellect.

- and where certain nefarious individuals who have eluded the law might be hiding themselves. He was also the one who got nominated to speak to me about my 'envelop all the evildoers in freezing blackness' approach to certain militant groups. Apparently it gives the wrong impression. I'm not.. honestly.. sure why. I knew Diana and Allen before joining the League, and I knew more about most other serving members than I do him. Not to say that he's bad company-.

Golden lights flare and golden motes of dust swirl as the other sensibly dressed League member makes an appearance. Zatara may not have the Helm of Fate since Grayven followed through on his offer of a mercy killing, but the Tower of Fate is still granting him access to its armoury and he's been taking the opportunity to 'tool up'. His jacket conceals knives that can wound anything; damn things even pinned me in place…

Alright, I could probably have gotten away if I went all out, but at levels of power I'm comfortable using around people with whom I wish to continue to interact… Pinned. A shadow attached to a solid by a knife.

His cape looks like the opera cape he used to wear save for being slightly larger. But it is in fact a protective artefact, able to ward off blows both corporeal and non. The amulet on a thong around his neck is another tool, one which I… Vaguely remember Kent Nelson using against me during my 'anti-social' period. I generally just mugged to the energy beams because the last thing I wanted was a Lord of Order deciding to try doing something that might actually affect me.

And I suppose it's faster than talking backwards.

He walks past the table and speaks briefly with Batman and Diana in hushed but urgent tones. I could eavesdrop, obviously, but I generally find that looking politely inquisitive at someone who isn't sharing is more effective and creates less ill-feeling. Something is occurring, and it's up to the doughty members of the Justice League to act in the interest of all that is good.

What fun!

And in my case to make sure that no one does anything terminally unfortunate. I used to think that keeping the mortal men and women of the League alive in a fire fight would be the difficult part. Then Diana challenged me to fight her 'using all of my power' and I observed Icon stand in place while a group of cultists shot him. It seems that people who are used to getting hurt learn how to dodge, and people who are used to being invulnerable…

Myself included. There's a reason why that knife caught me. And since I'm now a League member I'm obligated to keep myself alive as well.

Batman nods and Diana takes her seat while Zatara remains at the head of the table. Batman pulls a lever on his console and an image of… A young man in a startlingly generic super hero costume appears out of the ether. Very… Blue, with belts that look very nineties. A belt around his waist, two around his chest, and… He even has belts around his arms. It's almost a self-parody. Fortunately his feet don't appear to have been bound. From the cast of his face I deduce that he was dead when this was taken, though there's no obvious injury.

Across the table, Hawkman leans forwards.

"Why can't I see his face?"

"Magic." Zatara glances at the image. "Very powerful magic. Someone has gone to considerable effort to erase this man's identity."

That's odd. Though I've seen odder. I wasn't the Allies' only super powered operative in mainland Europe because I interact with magic in a remotely normal way.

I raise my right hand a little.

"You can't see his face?"

Zatara looks at me.

"You can?"

"Yes. I.. don't recognise him, but… Yes?"

I extend the shadow of the table we're sitting at, causing it to rise up in an approximation of the man's shape. Not quite… I lean left and right; I know that the image is in three dimensions but I'm only looking at it from one and since it doesn't create a shadow I can't get a feel for it that way, but…

Well, I was never an artist.

"Can you recognise that?"

Zatara shakes his head, then his eyes traverse the room to see if anyone else can. There don't appear to be any-.

Gardner grimaces, a glowing emerald mesh flying from his ring and surrounding my tenebrous construct. I have to make a little effort to hold it solid against a glowing object, a little more of the Shadowlands extruding into the World of Light. But it doesn't hurt and -if I'm honest- isn't even uncomfortable. It's more… A pressure. Distracting but… Ultimately not an issue.

At this level. I remember a time when Alan Scott shot a full intensity ray through a patch of shadow and took off my left forearm. I hadn't even known that was possible!

The new chaps are fine, I suppose. But you never forget your first Lantern.

"I'm gettin' nuthin'." Gardner allows his construct to fade away. "Someone else wanna try?"

Free holds out one of those marvellous toys of his, which twinkles prettily for a moment before fading. He shakes his head.

I smile pleasantly.

"Well, don't I feel special. How about…"

I allow most of the body to fade away, leaving just the upper portion of the head and a certain amount of shadowy skeleton as a support structure. I look around the table but I get the bad news when Marvel shakes his head.

Most inconvenient.

I wave what's left away.

"I assume that I'll be assisting Zatara with this one, then. What do we know of the corpus?"

 

[DrThoth]

I'd have liked to see more discussion about the Nabu mercy killing onscreen, since the last time we discussed it Zoat essentially said Zatara was basically fine with the status quo, and Renegade hasn't thought about Nabu in ages. I assume the encounter with Hawk and Dove had something to do with his decision, since it means that killing Nabu shouldn't result in a new Lord of Order taking over or anything.

So googling the wiki, the corpse might indicate that Arion is back in some capacity, which should be interesting given current Atlantean politics.

I'm not sure if telepathy works on the Shade, but that may be a way to view what the man's face looks like. If it's not something specifically related to the Shadowlands, I wonder why he's the only one who can see the face when a number of supernaturally potent people are also present.

 

[Darko]

long-accustomed habit causes

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Maybe 'a long' or 'habits'

Rather, he's been working with Batman on tracking international criminal syndicates, flows of money-

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Even if the experiments damaged some of it he still has a lot.

Even brain damaged, he has a ferocious intellect.

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Yep.

Zatara may not have the Helm of Fate since Grayven followed through on his offer of a mercy killing

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At least he's no longer suffering.

Now to see if he reincarnated, assuming the Sword was used instead of renegade ordering him to self terminate.

wanted was Lord of Order

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'was a'

Lord of Order deciding to try doing something that might actually affect me.

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Yeah Nabu may have actually possessed something that can either damage, kill or contain him if he knew what Shade was.

and create less ill-feeling

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'creates'

doesn't anything

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'doesn't do'

"Magic." Zatara glances at the image. "Very powerful magic. Someone has gone to considerable effort to erase this man's identity."

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Hmm, maybe that spell John uses to hide his identity.

But taken up to a hundred.

 

[moralrelativity]

is more effective and create less

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create -> creates

Alan Scott shot a full intensity through

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missing a word after "a full intensity"

 

[Mr Zoat]

Oh, then! In that case here you go!

The Blackhawk Program led by Colonel Andrew Lincoln, they're a clandestine military unit funded by the United Nations, have experience fighting against technologically advanced foes, have their own air (peregrines) and infantry units (austringers) and aren't terrorists? And even if you decide not to like them there's nothing saying there has to be one magic fit.

You don't need one group to handle all the training, didn't Grayven hire Buckface, Lightning Dust, and Tempest Shadow to retrain the guard instead of having one person handling the training from a single group. So this isn't a new concept.

Jim Lockhart might still be around and he has experience in 3D combat fields both underwater and in the air, or the Drift from Atlantis if you insist on going fishy, and if you give me five minutes I could give you examples for the other fields that aren't off the top of my head.

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However, in the Prime Earth continuity, Blackhawk Squadron first appeared as part of the New 52 DC Universe in Blackhawks #1 by Mike Costa and Graham Nolan.

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Did..? You just use the Nu52 version of the Blackhawks in a discussion with me?

Oh, I'm definitely blocking you now.

They also don't appear to use submarines and don't exist in this setting.

Renegade timeline Jim Lockhart got scrapped when he attacked Mount Justice.

Looking at the page for mercenaries on dc wiki there is Sky-pirate? As a potential recruit.

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Do you mean the guy from the forties? He's been dead for a while.

Not to further the argument, as it must be annoying to be argued against actions taken in this story. I was looking through various DC properties mercenaries and came across Strikeforce Europa.

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Nu52! Blocked!

Gotta go with the Vaermina side here. Grayven has G-gnomes and there are literally millions of discharged and bitter soldiers the world over with more experience in a given field that Grayven wants than Manta. Not to mention, just based on the veterans I know, not particularly loyal to their home nations. Better pilots who were discharged from the Russian military who will happily take a job giving experience either through in person teaching or via G-gnome for a quick buck, better marines from the US, etc. etc.

Yes, Manta's people have the closest thing to necessary skills available all in one place. Skills Grayven could have taken forcefully after breaking all their limbs and having the G-gnomes rip apart the minds of the mass-murdering terrorists. Not like it's the worst thing he's done. Not like it's the worst thing he's publicly done.

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That would work, and Grayven probably will use the Genomorphs to help with training. But having them participate willingly will make the process work better, as well as providing trainers and the implanted knowledge beds in.

 

[Darko]

So googling the wiki, the corpse might indicate that Arion is back in some capacity, which should be interesting given current Atlantean politics.

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And from what I read, the encounter in this universe went much worse for William.

Zoat did say the renegade was going to meet Arion.

Now to see how he deals with a Lovecraft level racist who is also one of the Earths most powerful magic users.

I'm not sure if telepathy works on the Shade, but that may be a way to view what the man's face looks like. If it's not something specifically related to the Shadowlands, I wonder why he's the only one who can see the face when a number of supernaturally potent people are also present

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The Shade has been stated to be one of the most powerful beings in the universe, so he may be immune to some forms of magic.

Zatarra is a mortal, albeit powerful wizard, and renegade Diana may not be experimenting with her divine powers like paragon Diana is doing.

Also, Arion is a very, very powerful wizard, who in the comics has been everything from a Lord of Order, to a demigod, to receiving knowledge from some gods.

The guy has a lot of power.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Maybe 'a long' or 'habits'

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I think that's alright.

'was a'
'creates'
'doesn't do.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[PDV]

I'm not sure if telepathy works on the Shade, but that may be a way to view what the man's face looks like. If it's not something specifically related to the Shadowlands, I wonder why he's the only one who can see the face when a number of supernaturally potent people are also present.

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I suspect telepathy works perfectly well on the Shade, more's the pity for the telepath. And that's also why he is the only face-viewer: he's an eldritch horror that thinks it's a nice gentleman in a suit. (He and DSS James Angleton can start a club.)

Now to see how he deals with a Lovecraft level racist who is also one of the Earths most powerful magic users.

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A hyper-racist... named "Aryan" spelled differently... Well, it's comic book names, I guess. Paging Otto Octavius.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

As the other fag

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I'm.....guessing this is a bundle of sticks saying that I'm not familiar with.

 

[Darko]

I'm.....guessing this is a bundle of sticks saying that I'm not familiar with.

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I know it's used by British people to refer to cigars and when a younger student serves an older one, but that's it.

Maybe it had a different meaning in Victorian times.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

12th July 2012
14:45 GMT

"Recognized, The Shade, Two Three."

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Ah, Richard Swift gets a turn in the limelight. His is a fascinating perspective. I've included a reminder of his pre-Flashpoint self for those who might have forgotten. Also to remind folks: He's a serving member of the league at Grayven's request, sort of an inside man to keep them from dying bravely and needlessly.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

The mild discomfort that comes from the zeta tube's illumination fades away in an instant, but long-accustomed habit causes me to mug for any potential observers. A blink, a stumble of a half-step and a tap of my cane against the deck plate as if reduced to feeling the location of the floor like a blind man.

"If it bothers you that much, why not just teleport?"

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Sandbagging, my dear fellow. The same reason he pretended to rely on a magic cane back in the day when he battled Flashes.After all, there's no fun in simply steamrolling everything opposing you in shadows.

Though a sizable portion of the post-war period is a bit of a blur to me, I'm reasonably confident that I never met Blake before my induction into the League. Another recipient of Grayven's largess, though in his case it involved less ecstatic joy and more a month-long recovery before he could speak without an Italian accent.

"I like having it announce me." I stroll towards the Justice League's round table, waving the head of my cane to Allen and getting a polite nod in return. "Acting as one's own compère is so gauche, but turning up unannounced..."

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That would be Adam Blake? Captain Comet? Indeed, he had a harder path to recovery than the Paragon's timeline. Also good to see no hard feelings between Barry and Richard. After all, Barry understands the nature of the Game. Just as most of the Rogues do: No killing; No innocents harmed if possible; Accept defeat graciously...

I shudder theatrically.

Though I suppose that if one is unusually bothered by gaucheness then one shouldn't take a seat amongst an ensemble dressed as circus strongmen and strongwomen. Every time I sit-

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At least he's ditched the pitch-black jumpsuit (complete with cowl) and waistcoat with flared shoulders. That was a mistake...

I sit.

-down in a suit I feel like I'm striking a blow for tailors everywhere.

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At least you're not the only one not wearing spandex, leather and/or rubber panels. It takes class to fight evil in a snappy suit.

As the other fag, Blake has the pleasure of occupying a seat next to me, which he duly does. Unlike most of our colleagues he hasn't assigned himself to any one city; I can well understand that he doesn't have any desire to return to the family manse when the entirety of said family are no longer with us. Rather, he's been working with Batman on tracking international criminal syndicates, flows of money-

And I admit I made a few rather rapid transfers myself after hearing that. Even brain damaged, he has a ferocious intellect.

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Before anyone complains, 'Fag' here is old British slang for a new hire or recruit to an organisation. What modern American soldiers might call the FNG. Good to see Adam's been keeping busy at least.

- and where certain nefarious individuals who have eluded the law might be hiding themselves. He was also the one who got nominated to speak to me about my 'envelope all the evildoers in freezing blackness' approach to certain militant groups. Apparently it gives the wrong impression. I'm not.. honestly.. sure why. I knew Diana and Allen before joining the League, and I knew more about most other serving members than I do him. Not to say that he's bad company-.

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But he's something of an unknown quantity? I can understand that measure of uncertainty. Not just in his somewhat nebulously-defined powers, but also his character, how he'll behave in the field...

Golden lights flare and golden motes of dust swirl as the other sensibly dressed League member makes an appearance. Zatara may not have the Helm of Fate since Grayven followed through on his offer of a mercy killing, but the Tower of Fate is still granting him access to its armoury and he's been taking the opportunity to 'tool up'. His jacket conceals knives that can wound anything; damn things even pinned me in place…

Alright, I could probably have gotten away if I went all out, but at levels of power I'm comfortable using around people with whom I wish to continue to interact… Pinned. A shadow attached to a solid by a knife.

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Good to know he's still got the Tower in hand. Presumably it decided he's as good an owner as any. Sensible enough not to abuse its stockpiles of power, but not so scholarly that he'd recluse himself from the world.

His cape looks like the opera cape he used to wear save for being slightly larger. But it is in fact a protective artefact, able to ward off blows both corporeal and non. The amulet on a thong around his neck is another tool, one which I… Vaguely remember Kent Nelson using against me during my 'anti-social' period. I generally just mugged to the energy beams because the last thing I wanted was Lord of Order deciding to try doing something that might actually affect me.

And I suppose it's faster than talking backwards.

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Also works when gagged, not that anyone could get that close these days, I'll bet. It also looks baller. Nothing like a tuxedo and cloak for a classy pulp wizard. Just ask Mandrake the Magnificent!

He walks past the table and speaks briefly with Batman and Diana in hushed but urgent tones. I could eavesdrop, obviously, but I generally find that looking politely inquisitive at someone who isn't sharing is more effective and create less ill-feeling. Something is occurring, and it's up to the doughty members of the Justice League to act in the interest of all that is good.

What fun!

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Just in case you'd forgotten he's hardly a true believer in Truth, Justice and the American Way. Still, he has things, and people, he wants to keep safe, after all.

And in my case to make sure that no one doesn't anything terminally unfortunate. I used to think that keeping the mortal men and women of the League alive in a fire fight would be the difficult part. Then Diana challenged me to fight her 'using all of my power' and I observed Icon stand in place while a group of cultists shot him. It seems that people who are used to getting hurt learn how to dodge, and people who are used to being invulnerable…

Myself included. There's a reason why that knife caught me. And since I'm now a League member I'm obligated to keep myself alive as well.

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Yes, certain power-sets tend to encourage a certain way of fighting. But that's no excuse not to expand your skills. Most version of Superman do learn some moves from Batman, after all.

Batman nods and Diana takes her seat while Zatara remains at the head of the table. Batman pulls a lever on his console and an image of… A young man in a startlingly generic super hero costume appears out of the ether. Very… Blue, with belts that look very nineties. A belt around his waist, two around his chest, and… He even has belts around his arms. It's almost a self-parody. Fortunately his feet don't appear to have been bound. From the caste of his face I deduce that he was dead when this was taken, though there's no obvious injury.

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Oh, this promises to be interesting. A young hero who named himself Arion? Sounds like his ancient namesake took exception to the use of his name. And a surface-dweller at that? There's some interesting connections there, between this kid and Hawk and Dove. Could we see Amethyst of Gemworld appear, I wonder?

Across the table, Hawkman leans forwards.

"Why can't I see his face?"

"Magic." Zatara glances at the image. "Very powerful magic. Someone has gone to considerable effort to erase this man's identity."

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Not his own work, presumably, like Constantine's little trick. It would have faded on death in most cases. Presumably his killer wanted him to remain anonymous.

That's odd. Though I've seen odder. I wasn't the Allies only super powered operative in mainland Europe because I interact with magic in a remotely normal way.

I raise my right hand a little.

"You can't see his face?"

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The joy of having more metaphysical Oomph as avatar of the Shadowlands. It would take something far more powerful to affect him, and there are few things on that level.

Zatara looks at me.

"You can?"

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And telling that Zatara can't see through the spell. I would have expected him to attempt some kind of counterspell, but he may well not have had the chance yet...

"Yes. I.. don't recognise him, but… Yes?"

I extend the shadow of the table we're sitting at, causing it to rise up in an approximation of the man's shape. Not quite… I lean left and right; I know that the image is in three dimensions but I'm only looking at it from one and since it doesn't create a shadow I can't get a feel for it that way, but…

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So it'll be an approximation of the young man's face. Still, close enough for the numerous scanning methods on the team.

Well, I was never an artist.

"Can you recognise that?"

Zatara shakes his head, then his eyes traverse the room to see if anyone else can. There don't appear to be any-.

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Oh, really? Batman isn't taking a photo to search for in his files? What about the Lanterns?

Gardner grimaces, a glowing emerald mesh flying from his ring and surrounding my tenebrous construct. I have to make a little effort to hold it solid against a glowing object, a little more of the Shadowlands extruding into the World of Light. But it doesn't hurt and -if I'm honest- isn't even uncomfortable. It's more… A pressure. Distracting but… Ultimately not an issue.

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Ah, there we go. And good to see Richard's not totally invincible. Some would no doubt complain about that.

At this level. I remember a time when Alan Scott shot a full intensity through a patch of shadow and took off my left forearm. I hadn't even known that was possible!

The new chaps are fine, I suppose. But you never forget your first Lantern.

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A pity Alan can't be here, but alas, Grayven took too long on the timing. That'll be an interesting point of difference if Paragon and Renegade ever meet, unlikely as that might be...

"I'm gettin' nuthin'." Gardner allows his construct to fade away. "Someone else wanna try?"

Free holds out one of those marvellous toys of his, which twinkles prettily for a moment before fading. He shakes his head.

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That spell must have some whammy to beat out a Lantern's Ring (admittedly not great against magic at the best of times) and New God technology. Presumably that was Scott's Mother Box he was waving about...

I smile pleasantly.

"Well, don't I feel special. How about…"

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Looks like you just got volunteered to assist in the investigation...

I allow most of the body to fade away, leaving just the upper portion of the head and a certain amount of shadowy skeleton as a support structure. I look around the table but I get the bad news when Marvel shakes his head.

Most inconvenient.

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So something totally memory-holed young Will's existence. Arion the Immortal must really have been annoyed.

I wave what's left away.

"I assume that I'll be assisting Zatara with this one, then. What do we know of the corpus?"

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Indeed. Was he stabbed? Shot? had his soul ripped out? That would go a long way to helping identify matters...

Well, then. A fun change of perspective. I've always liked the Shade, from the Starman comics and his own series that I've read. And this is an interesting murder mystery Zatara's brought to the League's attention. Let's hope we get to see some part of it play out. It'll be interesting to see if the elder Arion will make an appearance, and whether it'll tie into Grayven's affairs in Atlantis.

 

[Darko]

Ah, Richard Swift gets a turn in the limelight. His is a fascinating perspective. I've included a reminder of his pre-Flashpoint self for those who might have forgotten. Also to remind folks: He's a serving member of the league at Grayven's request, sort of an inside man to keep them from dying bravely and needlessly

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Until the EDF gets more powerful the League is the only thing standing between Earth and invading aliens.

At least you're not the only one not wearing spandex, leather and/or rubber panels. It takes class to fight evil in a snappy suit.

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I don't think a lot of the League actually wears spandex.

Diana's bikini suit was made by Hephaestus and I think it may be chain mail.

Batmans suit is probably some light, flexible, but hard material.

Supermans outfit may be Kryptonian in origin so it may be made of some other material etc.

Presumably it decided he's as good an owner as any.

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Or he just took over.

Just in case you'd forgotten he's hardly a true believer in Truth, Justice and the American Way. Still, he has things, and people, he wants to keep safe, after all.

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His fiance and Opal City.

Yes, certain power-sets tend to encourage a certain way of fighting. But that's no excuse not to expand your skills. Most version of Superman do learn some moves from Batman, after all.

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Maybe Wonder Woman.

She's roughly on his level, and knows how to use super strength for fighting.

Paragon and Renegade ever meet, unlikely as that might be...

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Now they will meet.

That spell must have some whammy to beat out a Lantern's Ring (admittedly not great against magic at the best of times) and New God technology. Presumably that was Scott's Mother Box he was waving about...

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Arion is a powerful wizard.

In the pre n52 comics he was everything from a demigod, to a Lord of Order, to using some of his dads divine power.

In the n52 he received knowledge from Poseidon and some alien sea gods, and crafted several powerful tools.

Zoat said that his version was just a mortal that reached his level of power by himself, but he's still a powerful wizard.

 

[Chaoswind]

Oh, then! In that case here you go!

The Blackhawk Program led by Colonel Andrew Lincoln, they're a clandestine military unit funded by the United Nations, have experience fighting against technologically advanced foes, have their own air (peregrines) and infantry units (austringers) and aren't terrorists? And even if you decide not to like them there's nothing saying there has to be one magic fit.

You don't need one group to handle all the training, didn't Grayven hire Buckface, Lightning Dust, and Tempest Shadow to retrain the guard instead of having one person handling the training from a single group. So this isn't a new concept.

Jim Lockhart might still be around and he has experience in 3D combat fields both underwater and in the air, or the Drift from Atlantis if you insist on going fishy, and if you give me five minutes I could give you examples for the other fields that aren't off the top of my head.

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Ufff Zoat started to write this fic out of an irrational hatred for Nu, approaching him with things from the corners of DC he really hates is best done carefully.

 

[Ngamer11]

"Recognized, The Shade, Two Three."

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The Shade's POV. This will be interesting. Also, Mr Zoat, can we get an updated list of members of League in both timelines to see how different they are?

As the other fag, Blake has the pleasure of occupying a seat next to me, which he duly does. Unlike most of our colleagues he hasn't assigned himself to any one city; I can well understand that he doesn't have any desire to return to the family manse when the entirety of said family are no longer with us. Rather, he's been working with Batman on tracking international criminal syndicates, flows of money-

And I admit I made a few rather rapid transfers myself after hearing that. Even brain damaged, he has a ferocious intellect.

- and where certain nefarious individuals who have eluded the law might be hiding themselves. He was also the one who got nominated to speak to me about my 'envelope all the evildoers in freezing blackness' approach to certain militant groups. Apparently it gives the wrong impression. I'm not.. honestly.. sure why. I knew Diana and Allen before joining the League, and I knew more about most other serving members than I do him. Not to say that he's bad company-.

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Nice to see that Captain Comet is a full functioning member of the League in the Renegade timeline. How much weaker is he compared to the version in the Paragon timeline because of his brain damage?

Golden lights flare and golden motes of dust swirl as the other sensibly dressed League member makes an appearance. Zatara may not have the Helm of Fate since Grayven followed through on his offer of a mercy killing, but the Tower of Fate is still granting him access to its armoury and he's been taking the opportunity to 'tool up'. His jacket conceals knives that can wound anything; damn things even pinned me in place…

Alright, I could probably have gotten away if I went all out, but at levels of power I'm comfortable using around people with whom I wish to continue to interact… Pinned. A shadow attached to a solid by a knife.

His cape looks like the opera cape he used to wear save for being slightly larger. But it is in fact a protective artefact, able to ward off blows both corporeal and non. The amulet on a thong around his neck is another tool, one which I… Vaguely remember Kent Nelson using against me during my 'anti-social' period. I generally just mugged to the energy beams because the last thing I wanted was a Lord of Order deciding to try doing something that might actually affect me.

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I didn't expect to see Zatara still using Nabu's arsenal. What does his outfit look like now that he's using some gear from the Tower of Fate?

I used to think that keeping the mortal men and women of the League alive in a fire fight would be the difficult part. Then Diana challenged me to fight her 'using all of my power' and I observed Icon stand in place while a group of cultists shot him. It seems that people who are used to getting hurt learn how to dodge, and people who are used to being invulnerable…

Myself included. There's a reason why that knife caught me. And since I'm now a League member I'm obligated to keep myself alive as well.

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No matter how powerful you are, you aren't invincible. Even if it will take something very esoteric to beat you, it's possible it could happen.

Batman nods and Diana takes her seat while Zatara remains at the head of the table. Batman pulls a lever on his console and an image of… A young man in a startlingly generic super hero costume appears out of the ether. Very… Blue, with belts that look very nineties. A belt around his waist, two around his chest, and… He even has belts around his arms. It's almost a self-parody. Fortunately his feet don't appear to have been bound. From the caste of his face I deduce that he was dead when this was taken, though there's no obvious injury.

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Seems like Arion might be around. I wonder how Atlantis will react to learning that their most esteemed magician is a super Purist?

That's odd. Though I've seen odder. I wasn't the Allies only super powered operative in mainland Europe because I interact with magic in a remotely normal way.

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What about General Glory? Paul told Guy that he was able to operate in Europe because he was too nuts for the Spear of Destiny to affect him.

Gardner grimaces, a glowing emerald mesh flying from his ring and surrounding my tenebrous construct. I have to make a little effort to hold it solid against a glowing object, a little more of the Shadowlands extruding into the World of Light. But it doesn't hurt and -if I'm honest- isn't even uncomfortable. It's more… A pressure. Distracting but… Ultimately not an issue.

At this level. I remember a time when Alan Scott shot a full intensity through a patch of shadow and took off my left forearm. I hadn't even known that was possible!

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This reminds me of when Paul once told an alien that drew power from the Shadowlands that one reason she wasn't getting a power ring was because no one was sure on how that would react with her powers. Is this ever going to become a plot point?