With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ardy]

And if you believe that Paul I know a Nigerian Prince that needs your help.

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Of course! Those slums could be valuable cattle grazing land, so they're being torn down in the fall

 

[Chaoswind]

Oh, I wasn't intending to say I supported unregulated capitalism. So I guess it was more like a poorly worded addendum that Paul probably shouldn't be showing things that might reinforce her belief that National Socialism was a good thing.

"Earth 10's Brazil doesn't have slums and we kept capitalism in check. Perhaps we know what we're talking about after all."

Insert image of a smug Overgirl.

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Or maybe most countries around the world had less stability problems after the second world war because the fight was won decisively by the fascist and the cold war and the ideological tug of war didn't happen?


I would figure the Nazis/Fascist had a very easy time installing pro fascist governments around the world and with no counter weight to challenge them things were very stable... Sucked for the minoritys and the people of color... Paul should ask what the total population of earth 10 is like, because I am betting on four billion people tops, probably something like two billion.

 

[Coda]

I would figure the Nazis/Fascist had a very easy time installing pro fascist governments around the world and with no counter weight to challenge them things were very stable... Sucked for the minoritys and the people of color... Paul should ask what the total population of earth 10 is like, because I am betting on four billion people tops, probably something like two billion.

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I doubt it's that low. The current population boom is heavily due to improving life expectancies in third-world areas, and the Nazis didn't mount extermination campaigns there. Birth rates in the West have been on the decline for decades. It would take something truly global, such as the Roanoke incident on Earth 16, to have an impact on the scale of billions.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

What is even the point of this arc?

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To beat us into submission for the ponies.

 

[Vaermina]

The sad thing here is that with Nazi earth being both more advanced and more competently run the best Paul can hope for is convincing Overgirl that the various minority groups aren't evil caricatures.

 

[ForeverShogo]

Well, going by which groups they wanted completely or mostly gone (Blacks, Jews, Gypsies, and most Slavs), how many people they thought they could Germanize after conquering Eastern Europe, and which groups they were okay with as long as they stayed in their own countries . . . Uh . . . I'd guess that Earth 10 probably has a population somewhere in the ballpark of 5.6 Billion.

For reference, the current population is estimated to be around 7.8 Billion.

Most of the difference would be from those who simply wouldn't be born vs those directly killed. With the world population getting bumped up a little just from the natalist policies of the Nazis.

Or you go maximum comic book Nazis and they literally took over the entire world and genocided anyone who wasn't white, too. In which case the world population probably would be closer to 2 or 3 Billion. (Assuming natalist policies worked fan-fucking-tastically.)

But the latter scenario doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[RagnarokAscendant]

Because people like to put the Nazis on a pedestal. A different pedestal than the weirdos who actually like Nazis, but a pedestal nonetheless.

Well, that and I guess people are a lot more willing to overlook fictional atrocities even when talking about what characters within that fiction should or should not be doing.

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Fictional atrocities are easier to forget, easier to debate about, etc. They're...safely abstract. Horrendous, yes, but less gut-punchy. There's some stuff I could also bring up but it would break the recent politics rule.

Nazis? Nazis are relevant in a way that fictional atrocities aren't.

I'm just trying to picture what would happen if Zoat was posting this arc on SV, and it's...not pretty. Like, would probably result in a clusterfuck of pissed-off posters that makes Maxx's reactions look temperate not pretty.

Still don't see why Zoat went for Nazi Girl from a narrative perspective, though. There's a lot of stuff he could've done instead if he wanted to tread the ground of a redemption story, without tap-dancing on the buttons of his readership. If the point of this ends up being that you can't fix certain mindsets, then I'm going to be really happy when Overgirl gets the crap kicked out of her.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Well, going by which groups they wanted completely or mostly gone (Blacks, Jews, Gypsies, and most Slavs), how many people they thought they could Germanize after conquering Eastern Europe, and which groups they were okay with as long as they stayed in their own countries . . . Uh . . . I'd guess that Earth 10 probably has a population somewhere in the ballpark of 5.6 Billion.

For reference, the current population is estimated to be around 7.8 Billion.

Most of the difference would be from those who simply wouldn't be born vs those directly killed. With the world population getting bumped up a little just from the natalist policies of the Nazis.

Or you go maximum comic book Nazis and they literally took over the entire world and genocided anyone who wasn't white, too. In which case the world population probably would be closer to 2 or 3 Billion. (Assuming natalist policies worked fan-fucking-tastically.)

But the latter scenario doesn't seem to be the case.

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You're missing the emphasis the National Socialists put on big families.

Fictional atrocities are easier to forget, easier to debate about, etc. They're...safely abstract. Horrendous, yes, but less gut-punchy. There's some stuff I could also bring up but it would break the recent politics rule.

Nazis? Nazis are relevant in a way that fictional atrocities aren't.

I'm just trying to picture what would happen if Zoat was posting this arc on SV, and it's...not pretty. Like, would probably result in a clusterfuck of pissed-off posters that makes Maxx's reactions look temperate not pretty.

Still don't see why Zoat went for Nazi Girl from a narrative perspective, though. There's a lot of stuff he could've done instead if he wanted to tread the ground of a redemption story, without tap-dancing on the buttons of his readership. If the point of this ends up being that you can't fix certain mindsets, then I'm going to be really happy when Overgirl gets the crap kicked out of her.

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No, that's the whole point. The Spider Queen is from a species that routinely exterminates planetary populations by eating them and people talked about her being a waifu. Then some blonde woman shows up and everyone loses their minds.

 

[Darko]

Aside from the Spider Queen there is also Canis.
A total monster responsible for the deaths of millions who everyone liked when he thought someone cloned Hitler just to get a sex toy, kissed Kaldur and may want to start some kind of relationship with Kon and possibly M'gann, either romantic or purely sexual, when he saw Kon destroy Oceanus body.

 

[John At Dawn]

Mr Zoat Did you miss the part where I said it wouldn't help? It's the equivalent of flicking the forehead.

 

[Coda]

Well, going by which groups they wanted completely or mostly gone (Blacks, Jews, Gypsies, and most Slavs), how many people they thought they could Germanize after conquering Eastern Europe, and which groups they were okay with as long as they stayed in their own countries . . . Uh . . . I'd guess that Earth 10 probably has a population somewhere in the ballpark of 5.6 Billion.

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That's a valid point. If the Nazis controlled the Western world, then Africa wouldn't have received the same level of humanitarian aid as it did on our Earth. That would slow the population growth.

Though... one thing I don't know -- what year is it at the current point in the timeline on Earth 10?

 

[RagnarokAscendant]

No, that's the whole point. The Spider Queen is from a species that routinely exterminates planetary populations by eating them and people talked about her being a waifu. Then some blonde woman shows up and everyone loses their minds.

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Okay, but did the Spider Queen have a sentence or two in every one of her appearances that repeated that little piece of information somehow? Because that's what you'd need narratively to achieve the same amount of emotional weight and cultural significance as 'Nazi'. With Overgirl, any time she says...just about anything, she reminds everyone that she's a Nazi with all that implies. With the Spider Queen, the atrocities aren't implicitly recognized because nobody really has the same cultural or narrative perspective to link those atrocities to her personal viewpoint or actions.

Also Paul hasn't accidentally had sex with Overgirl.

 

[Lazurman]

Also Paul hasn't accidentally had sex with Overgirl.

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Yet. Give it time.

 

[PDV]

Somehow I knew we'd have Americans in the thread claiming the Nazis were actually socialist...

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They were both, and neither, as they claimed. There's an excellent analysis of it I've read (by a Swede), which places Fascism opposite Liberalism as a high-collectivism, low-abundance philosophy, as contrasted with high-collectivism high-abundance communism and low-collectivism low-abundance traditionalism. (Warning: discusses modern politics in parts.) This explanation also spits out reasons for why Communist governments look the same as Fascist ones despite significant underlying differences (make a high-abundance philosophy deal with low abundance in practice and it collapses toward the low-abundance neighbor) and a number of other theoretical puzzles.

 

[Simonbob]

I've known that Nazis were the worst socialists ever for quite a while, since they were pro-big business.

Pro-big business though is not the same as being pro-capitalism.

The Nazis did very much want control, you are right, but you were wrong about the nature of the control they wanted.

They didn't want to be big business, they wanted big business co-opted.


Here's a paper about Fascist Italy's privatization.

Here's a paper about Nazi Germany's privatization.

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Ok.

I see what you mean.

Much of that I've seen, not said in the ways you said it.


So, agreed. Ish, at least.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

The Spider Queen is from a species that routinely exterminates planetary populations by eating them and people talked about her being a waifu. Then some blonde woman shows up and everyone loses their minds.

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I distinctly remember supporting bringing out the Space Raid upon the spiders.

I've been very consistent with my burn them all attitudes thank you.

 

[Jiro]

Seriously. Wendigos? I'm surprised the Cattle Rancher's Association has even heard of those.

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If I lived in a world where various supernatural critters were real, I'd probably learn what they are even if I wouldn't have any interest in them in the real world.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Somehow I knew we'd have Americans in the thread claiming the Nazis were actually socialist...

What is even the point of this arc?

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I take offence to that I'm not a bloody colonial traitor!

Also, gee who'd have thought some people think national SOCIALISTS might be socialists whether it's accurate or not?

I distinctly remember supporting bringing out the Space Raid upon the spiders.

I've been very consistent with my burn them all attitudes thank you.

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And that is why for all our bluster we still love you.

 

[Jormuungaand]

And that is why for all our bluster we still love you.

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*Looks at Maxx Crowley 's profile pic*
Puppy love?

 

[Lord Ernest]

Gotta say, I love when there's a lot of debate in the thread, but at the same time... at this point there's not even a horse, the bloodstained place where its corpse was is getting beaten so hard and deep that it looks like we're looking for petroleum.

On the other hand, now I'm really looking forward to the visit to pony-land. Not sure if there's any connection.

 

[Gantradies]

There's also the badass who WINS every important fight in his long life. So good no one can kill him yet denied Valhalla/Gre'thor (yes, this originally occurred to me concerning Klingons) because he was too good a warrior?

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....the thing i always thought was stupid/outright moronic about the Klingon Warrior-caste's "Honour" system, is that otherwise Impeccably Honorable individuals are cast into Gre'thor for being the VICTIMS of treachery-
like...whats the point of even trying, if you could be doomed to an afterlife/eternity of shame because someone knifed you in the back on the way to the battlefield >.<

 

[Maxx Crowley]

*Looks at Maxx Crowley 's profile pic*
Puppy love?

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Everyone loves Les Potats.

 

[Stsword]

....the thing i always thought was stupid/outright moronic about the Klingon Warrior-caste's "Honour" system, is that otherwise Impeccably Honorable individuals are cast into Gre'thor for being the VICTIMS of treachery-
like...whats the point of even trying, if you could be doomed to an afterlife/eternity of shame because someone knifed you in the back on the way to the battlefield >.<

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To have buddies willing to undergo a suitably awesome quest in your name to earn you glory enough for Stovokor posthumously.

Or to have a loved one suitably Dragonborn-esque to enter Grethor and rescue you.

 

[Itypeslow]

No no, that's a hurrock, from Tamora Pierce's Wild Magic series. Sort of. Actual hurrock's are supposed to have forward facing eyes, but that was the best picture I could find. Basically, they're what happens when people think too much about what an evil Pegasus would look like and cause the world's magic to respond.

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I prefer Protector of the Small, myself

 

[Chaoswind]

Okay, but did the Spider Queen have a sentence or two in every one of her appearances that repeated that little piece of information somehow? Because that's what you'd need narratively to achieve the same amount of emotional weight and cultural significance as 'Nazi'. With Overgirl, any time she says...just about anything, she reminds everyone that she's a Nazi with all that implies. With the Spider Queen, the atrocities aren't implicitly recognized because nobody really has the same cultural or narrative perspective to link those atrocities to her personal viewpoint or actions.

Also Paul hasn't accidentally had sex with Overgirl.

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Yet. Give it time.

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Now there is an idea for an absurd omake.

 

[ForeverShogo]

Hmmm. Zoat is probably right. Even accounting for their natalist policies, that first estimate is probably a little low. I still think around 3 Billion is probably accurate for the scenario of them making the entire planet as white as possible.

But since they still have allies among certain groups/nations in at least this fic's version of Earth 10 . . .

The biggest dip in population would probably be them purging black people from Africa. Because I don't think they'd they'd merely deny aid to African peoples. When these Nazis are conquering Britain and launching Trans-Atlantic invasions that end with the successful conquest of the United States?

I definitely think they'd basically take Sub-Saharan Africa away from the defeated French and British. Get to work on their idea of a Mittelafrika.

Just assume they also grab Liberia and the rest of South Africa. Especially South Africa. That has good Germanic stock in the form of the Boers that they can work on integrating. (They planned to buy Mozambique and Angola from Portugal, just FYI.)

Oh, and more than likely let Italy have Djibouti so it can be added to Italian East Africa.

The Nazis considered black people to be on the same level as Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies. So you can imagine just how badly Africa would be depopulated.

Interestingly enough, despite this, they weren't really sent to the camps because there were so few blacks in Germany that they didn't really consider them enough of a threat to do much more than sterilize some of them. Though they did still face quite a bit of racial discrimination.

I'm sure this would change after a total victory, and that they would have ended up in the camps as well in due time.

ANYWAYS . . . While that would ordinarily result in a smaller population for Earth 10, the Nazis really, really wanted German women to pop out a lot of babies. To the extent that the created a special medal to honor German women with lots of babies. A medal that came with a boatload of special privileges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honour_of_the_German_Mother

If you don't feel like reading . . . They were pushing for every German family to have 4 to 8 kids.

So yeah. Earth 10 is probably above 8 Billion now that I've thought about it more. With between 2 and 3 Billion of that being white, and with black people being considered endangered.

 

[Mquz]

Hmmm. Zoat is probably right. Even accounting for their natalist policies, that first estimate is probably a little low. I still think around 3 Billion is probably accurate for the scenario of them making the entire planet as white as possible.

But since they still have allies among certain groups/nations in at least this fic's version of Earth 10 . . .

The biggest dip in population would probably be them purging black people from Africa. Because I don't think they'd they'd merely deny aid to African peoples. When these Nazis are conquering Britain and launching Trans-Atlantic invasions that end with the successful conquest of the United States?

I definitely think they'd basically take Sub-Saharan Africa away from the defeated French and British. Get to work on their idea of a Mittelafrika.

Just assume they also grab Liberia and the rest of South Africa. Especially South Africa. That has good Germanic stock in the form of the Boers that they can work on integrating. (They planned to buy Mozambique and Angola from Portugal, just FYI.)

Oh, and more than likely let Italy have Djibouti so it can be added to Italian East Africa.

The Nazis considered black people to be on the same level as Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies. So you can imagine just how badly Africa would be depopulated.

Interestingly enough, despite this, they weren't really sent to the camps because there were so few blacks in Germany that they didn't really consider them enough of a threat to do much more than sterilize some of them. Though they did still face quite a bit of racial discrimination.

I'm sure this would change after a total victory, and that they would have ended up in the camps as well in due time.

ANYWAYS . . . While that would ordinarily result in a smaller population for Earth 10, the Nazis really, really wanted German women to pop out a lot of babies. To the extent that the created a special medal to honor German women with lots of babies. A medal that came with a boatload of special privileges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honour_of_the_German_Mother

If you don't feel like reading . . . They were pushing for every German family to have 4 to 8 kids.

So yeah. Earth 10 is probably above 8 Billion now that I've thought about it more. With between 2 and 3 Billion of that being white, and with black people being considered endangered.

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That's what Mars is for. They're also anti-science and especially against helping the weak. That means they likely don't have any of the medical revolutions developed post-WW2 (such as the many vaccines developed in the 60s), so people die more often. 8 children then was sort of the equivalent of 4 today apparently, from what I understand, at least as far as how many make it to adulthood. While Kal-El's pod having a database would help with material science, computing, Engineering, etc... the one thing it couldn't give Germans would be medical treatments that worked on humans. This would maybe be better as far as population control goes.

 

[Handlewithcare]

the one thing it couldn't give Germans would be medical treatments that worked on humans. This would maybe be better as far as population control goes.

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Better tech does not just mean knowing more, it also means being better and faster at finding out new things. And the fortress contains medical analysis tools.

It would have been a huge boost to Nazi medicine.

 

[Mquz]

Better tech does not just mean knowing more, it also means being better and faster at finding out new things. And the fortress contains medical analysis tools.

It would have been a huge boost to Nazi medicine.

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Yes and no. For analysis, sure, for genetics, sure. For disease - which could be interpreted as weakness? No way would there be funding. They could have found out about them, but they wouldn't have funded certain things

 

[ForeverShogo]

Despite the goofy ideas they had on race, I wouldn't really describe the Nazis as anti-science. Even the most popular thing people try to point to when making that claim, the "Jewish Physics" thing, was something that wasn't actually supported by the Nazi government.

It was basically just two dudes, Lenard and Stark, who tried to push the idea of Jewish Physics. With the two of them quickly losing any influence they had when they pissed off Himmler by harassing Werner Heisenberg. With Himmler promising that the SS would finance a state of the art physics institute, with Heisenberg in charge of it, after they won the war.

Lenard began to play less and less of a role, and soon Stark ran into even more difficulty, as other scientists and industrialists known for being exceptionally "Aryan" came to the defense of Relativity and quantum mechanics. As historian Mark Walker puts it, "despite his best efforts, in the end his science was not accepted, supported, or used by the Third Reich. Stark spent a great deal of his time during the Third Reich fighting with bureaucrats within the National Socialist state. Most of the National Socialist leadership either never supported Lenard and Stark, or abandoned them in the course of the Third Reich."

The Nazis still wanted scientists. They just didn't want Jewish scientists.

Nor were they anti-vaccinations. They put a fair amount of effort into furthering vaccine development. Mostly by testing them on people they tossed into the camps. Which, uh, even disregarding the Kryptonian tech, might mean their medicine is further along. The Nazis were all too happy to experiment on those they considered sub-human. I'd assume a medical industry that can ignore animal testing altogether and just test on humans whenever the fuck it feels like it would be further along, anyways.

So. Uh. Yeah. Earth 10. The "utopia" built on the suffering of those they considered undesirable.