With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[BoML]

"Nice to see someone talking his personal protective equipment so seriously. But if things turn nasty here, you might want-"

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"talking" should be 'taking'.

 

[Vaermina]

What fallout? Everyone is happy. Everyone is working together harmoniously for a better future. He might feel bad about having done the things he did, however for practical purposes he has already reached the point where the 'ends' parts of 'ends justify the means' has already arrived.

He would hopefully stop being a self-indulgent (mind-)raping arsehole but I doubt his overall methods would change.

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Of course, he can't avoid the book of destiny forever.

Eventually one or more of the heroes are going to get their minds back, his entire house of cards will fall apart, and he will end up in a science cell somewhere.

And then the world goes boom in World War 3.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

If he's cured of his evil then maybe he can reverse it himself as a attempt at redemption.

Or if say paragon defeats him then he can reverse the changes to people.

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Umm... why would he do that? if he tried there is a good chance that the 'heroes' he changed the desires of would fight him believing his mind to be compromised. (leaving alone the fact he's made superheroing more efficient).

I'm not sure if paragon would either he left the syndicate alone and even helped them out before.

Or maybe he has made a contingency for that.

 

[Mr Zoat]

"talking" should be 'taking'.

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Thank you, corrected.

You did say she was bound to the orange light battery for sometime by her own lasso. Not only would that be reminiscent of Heracles did to her mother which would be a horrible call back, but knowing that her true mind was slipping away, a slow painful death of her ego and id, (or whatever the personality would be called), I'd say that was quite a torturous experience that Paul inflicted upon her. The way he phrased the act he did have every intent or altering her mind to one he'd prefer. One that wouldn't fight him. One that agree with him. And apparently one that is fine with him slapping her ass or coping a feel at the least. And giving what her people constantly told her of men I imagine becoming that kind of woman or allowing her body to be mistreated in such a way was certainly a fear of hers. If she was still around I am sure she'd argue the description of torture with you.
Further more torture is torture. If you had ever been tortured I am sure your torturers informing you that they've no pleasure from this wouldn't really matter to you. They are still the ones doing this to you.

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If I'm trying to kill someone, and I shoot them with a gun, and it doesn't kill them right away and causes them pain, that's not torture.

 

[Darko]

All the pleasantness came afterwards. Giggity.

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Ah, making a reference to a rapist, pedophile,necrophiliac, that is somehow meant to make this better.

Umm... why would he do that? if he tried there is a good chance that the 'heroes' he changed the desires of would fight him believing his mind to be compromised. (leaving alone the fact he's made superheroing more efficient).

I'm not sure if paragon would either he left the syndicate alone and even helped them out before.

Or maybe he has made a contingency for that.

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Guilt is a good reason for him reversing their conditioning.

He could also just try to get away from them after he reverses them so he can finish with the rest.

Paragon may also not be all that comfortable with mind controlling tyrants, seeing as he's fighting the Reach now, who mind control people and who he has been shown to dislike.

And putting quote marks when you wrote heroes makes it sound like you don't actually consider them to be heroes when they are.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I swear to god.....if people who wanna argue with Zoat about the semantics of what amounts to a one off side character that literally doesn't matter in the slightest, and that gets Zoat to say something that runs afoul of the rules, and this piece of work gets kicked off this site...I am going to be pissed.

 

[Darko]

If I'm trying to kill someone, and I shoot them with a gun, and it doesn't kill them right away and causes them pain, that's not torture.

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This is...honestly one the most half assed excuses I have ever read on why something that is very clearly something is not that something.

 

[Flightless Man]

This is...honestly one the most half assed excuses I have ever read on why something that is very clearly something is not that something.

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Thank you, corrected.

If I'm trying to kill someone, and I shoot them with a gun, and it doesn't kill them right away and causes them pain, that's not torture.

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Your example is correct, but culturally and psychollogically, what he Tangsied does to Dianna is torture.

Having a choice to kill someone quickly and the wound takes longer to bleed out is one thing. Choosing a long drawn out way of killing someone is torture when he could have branded/OL copied her for same general result.

Now i like Tangsied existing as a worst case scenario, I like seeing what horrible things you can do with him. I see it as dark mirrrors of earlier times when Paul/Grayven were shown similar oprotunities that they resisted. Like how Paul told Zatana his age and didn't hook up with a lovepowered girl.

Paul and even his darker renegade side have shown Zoat doesnt't morrally agree with the evil versions, so attributing Zoat to what kind of monsters his villains are is very unfair and only being done because we have a PoV of him.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Guilt is a good reason for him reversing their conditioning.

He could also just try to get away from them after he reverses them so he can finish with the rest.

Paragon may also not be all that comfortable with mind controlling tyrants, seeing as he's fighting the Reach now, who mind control people and who he has been shown to dislike.

And putting quote marks when you wrote heroes makes it sound like you don't actually consider them to be heroes when they are.

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No, no I mean the currently mind-controlled "heroes" who have had their brains rewritten is who I was referring to.

Perhaps I should have made that more clear.

I was thinking tangseid had a contingency for being 'returned to baseline' and have plans for the 'baseline' Tanglseid to get mobbed and redosed.

 

[Darko]

Paul and even his darker renegade side have shown Zoat doesnt't morrally agree with the evil versions, so attributing Zoat to what kind of monsters his villains are is very unfair and only being done because we have a PoV of him.

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I wasn't trying to compare their characteristics to Zoat, but rather trying to show that his reasoning was flawed.

No, no I mean the currently mind-controlled "heroes" who have had their brains rewritten is who I was referring to.

Perhaps I should have made that more clear.

I was thinking tangseid had a contingency for being 'returned to baseline' and have plans for the 'baseline' Tanglseid to get mobbed and redosed.

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Sadly you may have a point about that contingency thing.

 

[Flightless Man]

I wasn't trying to compare their characteristics to Zoat, but rather trying to show that his reasoning was flawed.
.

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You did not succeed then. It really comes across like your calling Zoat evil.

Your well reasoned parts got mixed with the snarkier comments and it blends your responses, making it unclear your intent.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Sadly you may have a point about that contingency thing.

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I mean if I had my mind altered into an 'evil' (evil in quotation because that would imply I'm good) and the 'evil' version of me liked how I now was it's the first thing I'd do.

 

[Pez]

Zoat's not doing anything against the rules. This is in the SFW section, and it is. If you're looking for something darker, I believe Cambrian has a one-shot where a WW clone is captured by a Circe clone, who mind breaks her by having her constantly raped by giant pigs.

Rape and mind control are semi-common themes in comics. I mean, Superman almost filed a sex tape with Big Barda. What Zoat's doing here is tame. Now, if he put some of these as sidestories in the Eros thread... Great, now I really want that.

Ah, making a reference to a rapist, pedophile,necrophiliac, that is somehow meant to make this better.

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This is QQ. Kink shaming is discouraged. Bad guys are bad guys. I'm not trying to claim that that version of Paul is good, though I'd love to see what made him decide to do that to WW. I can't fathom a valid reason for it, but I'd love to see if there was a reason other than "I really want to fuck her, and I really want her to want to fuck me."

[Edit: fixed typo. And to hell with French kings.]

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Rape and mind control are semi-common themes in comics. I mean, Superman almost filed a sex tape with Big Barda. What Zoat's doing here is tame. Now, if he put some of these as sidestories in the Eros thread... Great, now I really want that.

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Plot twist eros paul is actually tangseid.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

King shaming is discouraged.

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I think Louis XVIII of France should be ashamed that no one in his family could think up a better name after 17 other tries, and I'm not afraid to say it. What's the matter frenchy? Bad food, too much cheese, can't think of names?

 

[Darko]

You did not succeed then. It really comes across like your calling Zoat evil.

Your well reasoned parts got mixed with the snarkier comments and it blends your responses, making it unclear your intent.

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Sorry if you thought that but I was just trying to show that his reasoning was flawed, not imply Zoat is evil.

I mean if I had my mind altered into an 'evil' (evil in quotation because that would imply I'm good) and the 'evil' version of me liked how I now was it's the first thing I'd do.

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Well seeing as this one jumped at the chance for an upgrade even though he didn't know what said upgrade would do to humans, maybe he'll be a bit more reckless and hopefully not make such a contingency.

This is QQ. King shaming is discouraged. Bad guys are bad guys. I'm not trying to claim that that version of Paul is good, though I'd love to see what made him decide to do that to WW. I can't fathom a valid reason for it, but I'd love to see if there was a reason other than "I really want to fuck her, and I really want her to want to fuck me."

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I doubt there was any deeper reason than that, and even if we are given one it will most likely be an extremely hollow one that makes little sense to anyone but his deluded self.

Plot twist eros paul is actually tangseid.

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Not really.

Eros Paul is just a version of paragon that decided to accept a three way invitation.

He's enlightened, Tangseid is not.

He cares about consent, Tangseid does not.

Though I'm assuming you were just joking there.

 

[Doccer]

I wasn't trying to compare their characteristics to Zoat, but rather trying to show that his reasoning was flawed.

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Hear Hear!

Your example is correct, but culturally and psychollogically, what he Tangsied does to Dianna is torture.

Having a choice to kill someone quickly and the wound takes longer to bleed out is one thing. Choosing a long drawn out way of killing someone is torture when he could have branded/OL copied her for same general result.

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Correct. Especially in a culture where men are notorious for forcing women into a subservient role of being obedient objects for their pleasure.
Assuming of course the purpose was to kill quickly and he was unable to finish the job or unable to heal/alleviate the injury/pain in an expedient manner due to some physically blocked reason that kept you from doing so.
I mean there are a number situational factors that can apply and be argued with with only the knowledge of:

If I'm trying to kill someone, and I shoot them with a gun, and it doesn't kill them right away and causes them pain,

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What that Paul did was wrong. And not just for the parts that Mr Zoat is aware of.

 

[Flightless Man]

Sorry if you thought that but I was just trying to show that his reasoning was flawed, not imply Zoat is evil

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That is fair, and i do agree with his reasoning being an end result i would not reach (It's not flawed though, it follows a logical train of thought even if we disagree.). Its a difference of opinion, not factually incorrect.

I was trying to explain. But i failed and came across accusatory instead, which was not my intent.

I apologize. My goal was to clear up the snarky comments that were intermingled with the comments on this topic and highlight were the argument why your responses were getting so much push back. It was not my intent to come across as another hostile. I am bad at explaining myself and generally need several tries for clarification.

 

[Darko]

That is fair, and i do agree with his reasoning being an end result i would not reach (It's not flawed though, it follows a logical train of thought even if we disagree.). Its a difference of opinion, not factually incorrect.

I was trying to explain. But i failed and came across accusatory instead, which was not my intent.

I apologize. My goal was to clear up the snarky comments that were intermingled with the comments on this topic and highlight were the argument why your responses were getting so much push back. It was not my intent to come across as another hostile. I am bad at explaining myself and generally need several tries for clarification.

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Yeah, I also sometimes have trouble explaining myself, at least in verbal conversations, so I can sympathise.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat's not doing anything against the rules. This is in the SFW section, and it is. If you're looking for something darker, I believe Cambrian has a one-shot where a WW clone is captured by a Circe clone, who mind breaks her by having her constantly raped by giant pigs.

Rape and mind control are semi-common themes in comics. I mean, Superman almost filed a sex tape with Big Barda. What Zoat's doing here is tame. Now, if he put some of these as sidestories in the Eros thread... Great, now I really want that.



This is QQ. Kink shaming is discouraged. Bad guys are bad guys. I'm not trying to claim that that version of Paul is good, though I'd love to see what made him decide to do that to WW. I can't fathom a valid reason for it, but I'd love to see if there was a reason other than "I really want to fuck her, and I really want her to want to fuck me."

[Edit: fixed typo. And to hell with French kings.]

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No, Superman did film a sex tape with Big Barda. Darkseid shows it to Scott earlier in that comic. Scott just stops him filming another one.

 

[Rafin]

Not really. The whole 'settling the surface' thing is reducing property values anyway.



The SI informed J'emm of the true origin of modern Martians as well as showing him the mission telepathically. That information caused him to agree that apartide had to end and to promise to get the other Reds to go along with it. The SI left him to it, but told him that he would release the information eventually. In the Renegade timeline, M'gann released the information and caused a civil war.

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I meant "property values" in the same vein as white flight in US history where white people rapidly sold their houses after black people managed to move in.

Where does the White Martian conversing with Paul have the term Neapolitan Laws from? Did Paul mention this quip on Martian live TV in the past?

 

[Darko]

I meant "property values" in the same vein as white flight in US history where white people rapidly sold their houses after black people managed to move in.

Where does the White Martian conversing with Paul have the term Neapolitan Laws from? Did Paul mention this quip on Martian live TV in the past?

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The term could have been used in some of the materials Martian Womanhunter brought with him.

I'm assuming that not all of it was porn.

That, or the ring just translated whatever word he used into 'Neapolitan', since it had the closest meaning.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

The term could have been used in some of the materials Martian Womanhumter brought with him.

I'm assuming that not all of it was porn.

That, or the ring just translated whatever word he used into 'Neapolitan', since it had the closest meaning.

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I still don't understand what ice cream has to do with this.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

I still don't understand what ice cream has to do with this.

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Ice cream that has 3 distinct colours

Martians have 3 distinct colours.

Its a sort of nick name for policy.

We have plenty of weird names for laws in this world.

 

[Flightless Man]

Ice cream that has 3 distinct colours

Martians have 3 distinct colours.

Its a sort of nick name for policy.

We have plenty of weird names for laws in this world.

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Well its also used to refer to someone from Naples.

Origin of 3 color icecream is Believed to be Naples from all evidence.

3 color icecream is also called Harlequin icecream in many areas. (i doubt Harley is on the moon sadly)
Chocolate/vanilla/strawberry was only popularized in america. in Italy it was made to look like the flag with things like pistachio. Now in my head, all Martians have an Italian accent.

 

[Sockmonkey]

Cold's just not capable of caring, anymore, and it looks like Paul would be like that if not for his exposure to the Orange Light.

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Snart can care. His issue is that his brain can no longer grok the concept of long-term safety.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Ice cream that has 3 distinct colours

Martians have 3 distinct colours.

Its a sort of nick name for policy.

We have plenty of weird names for laws in this world.

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Thank you for clarifying.

 

[thebishop8]

If I'm trying to kill someone, and I shoot them with a gun, and it doesn't kill them right away and causes them pain, that's not torture.

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[Mr Zoat]

4th July 2012
21:39 GMT

The White Martian with the guns pointed at him looks my way.

…

"If you think I'm lowering my telepathic defences in a situation like this, you've got another thing coming. I realise that it's not your preferred way of communicating, but I would appreciate it if you could speak out loud."

The shape of that Martian's throat changes slightly.

"This.. is.. inefficient."

"Direct contact with my mind can be… Unhealthy. Non-green power rings require a rather emotional mind state, and I've knocked Manhunters out through simple mental contact before. Besides, would you want-" I glance at the four… No, now eight Manhunters who are guarding the tunnel. "-to risk them influencing me into attacking you?"

One of the Manhunters jerks his head my way, his form shifting into that of a J'onn lookalike.

"You have been invited here by the Prelate. Your person is inviolable. I would rather let this mob cut off my arms than disobey her command."

"Let us say that I accept that you would not do so deliberately. Do you know enough about unshielded human minds to avoid doing so accidentally, by inadvertently imprinting your schematic models into my thought processes?"

"It.. should not-. No." The Manhunter doesn't look around, but the rest of the squad ripple and either adopt a similar shape -and given the appearance of one of them, they've clearly been watching Mr. J'aarkn's recording- or at least add a larynx to their default shape. "Are you satisfied?"

"I can only talk with people who can talk." I turn my head towards John. "Lantern Stewart, what set this off?"

"The Manhunters don't want to let anyone other than B'enn B'lanx talk to us. Which means everyone else has to stay outside. Mister B'lanx's followers aren't happy with that."

Gun-target White Martian inclines his head slightly.

"They think I might have an accident."

"I don't care enough about what happens here to want to kill you."

"So you say. But we Whites don't get access to planetwide news messages unless we steal them. I have no idea who you are or what you've done."

"You know how Mars has a habitable surface now?"

"It does?"

"Yes. Well, breathable atmosphere and enough of a magnetic field that you don't have to worry about cosmic rays. It's not exactly liveable yet, due to being a barren wasteland, but that's a work in progress. I was going to claim credit on the grounds that it was an Orange Lantern who got things to this stage at my request, but I suppose… If you didn't know about it there's no credit to claim."

"I suppose that it's nice that you made an effort."

"I'm also why most Martian cities have relaxed or abolished restrictions on their White inhabitants. I assume that you knew about that?"

"Yes. Why?"

"Because colour-based restrictions with no basis in biological reality are horribly unfair. I have a White-."

"You have a White. Best. Friend."

"M'gann M'orzz is the only Martian I know well enough to call a friend, and she's been on Earth for over two years."

For a moment I consider creating a construct image with her likeness, but of course colour is important. Instead, I take out a hologram projector and generate an image of her default form, next to one of her monochrome mission form.

"Have her reports of earthly heroism made it this far?"

"No. We would never be told anything about a heroic White."

Well, darn. No, I suppose that they wouldn't, and Martians probably wouldn't consider heroics on Earth all that important anyway.

I tap the side of my forehead with my right forefinger.

"Alright. I'll focus on everything heroic I've seen her do. For your own safety, don't stray from my surface thoughts. And-" I look around the crowd. "-just you."

"Fine."

I feel a slight push even as I go through the mental transformations needed to remove my shields. My familiarity with M'gann and Henry means that I also feel his response to an alien mindscape: a distinct hesitation. Good. That shows good sense and is what I wanted anyway.

**[Meeting M'gann for the first time.] [The fight with Mister Twister.] [Santa Prisca.] [Red Volcano.] [J'aarkn, when she went white full time.] [The Young Offenders.]**

I skip the Burner without making it obvious that I'm skipping something. If he were more used to my mind he might spot it, but since he knows that he's getting a slideshow it doesn't appear to register.

**[The Star Conquerors.] [And a hundred snapshots of minor social interactions and heroic deeds that didn't qualify as full-fledged missions.]**

"I see."

His eyes glow faintly, and from the way the Martians closest to him are doing the same I assume that he's sharing what he saw with them.

"Do you accept that on the balance of probability I do in fact have a White friend?"

"Yes. And you have no special reason to harm me." He raises his right arm and points to the talkative Manhunter. "That one does."

"Would you accept a smaller bodyguard? The rest could stay in the next cavern and watch telepathically."

The talkative Manhunter grimaces. "They should do what they are told."

"You can go back to beating up unarmed civil rights activists once I'm gone. My understanding is that you've been told that I'm allowed to have this meeting. I'm choosing to have it with…" I count Manhunters. "Twenty White Martians rather than a hundred. Or one. Is complying with my request a problem?"

"Yes. They aren't our only security concern."

"Last year the Hyperclan tried to kill me when they tried to undo the mental reprogramming of a convicted rapist and murderer I was visiting. The fight ended with most of them retreating while one remained in Manhunter custody. I doubt that the violent fringe of the White Rights movement regards me fondly."

I pause.

"You have access to those records, don't you?"

"Yes." The eyes of another member of the squad light up, presumably the communications specialist. "We will confirm-." An eye-flicker. "I see. Very well. We accept your claim. We will permit you to discuss matters with a small group. The rest will disperse."

"The rest will remain outside."

He stares at me, and his eyes flicker for a moment.

"Very well."

"But. " I turn back to Mr. B'lanx. "No one with the Hyperclan symbol. They already tried to kill me once. I'm not keen on them trying again."

 

[Darko]

they've clearly been watching Mr. J'aarkn's recording

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I doubt he's all that flattered that a potential racist is a fan.

"You know how Mars has a habitable surface now?"

"It does?"

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Sweet Christ, they honestly aren't informed of even that?

"You have a White. Best. Friend."

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Ohh, so do Martians have something similar to that 'I have many black friends' thing, but use Whites?

Henry mean that I

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'means'

movement regard me fondly."

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'regards'