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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

I really like this explanation for how the ring works- it's certainly better than how the comics did it. Direct mental alteration does fit when a lot of what green rings rely on is knowing how to do things- and the more complex and detailed a given fix is, the more willpower it requires (which can result in things like John Stewart breaking his ring when he tried to reassemble a planet because he had too much willpower)

Newer GL comics (ie: Stuff occurring during [redacted]) I think I've heard of a couple instances of green rings healing without relying on detailed knowledge of how to do it, but from what I recall everyone and their mother basically tells the GL in question it's impossible.

Generally I imagine you'd really just want a ring that doesn't require willpower to do it- aka, literally anything else (well, maybe not yellow except for battlefield triage)- because it seems like a feature of will directed rings that you need to precisely know what's going on. That's why Soranik Natu can heal with a ring- because she's a doctor and she does it 'manually'.

Meanwhile, Paul can just want it really hard, a Star Sapphire can just encase you in crystal and it'll take care of some of that, and blue rings are optimized for healing and other frankly bullshit manifestations and ratio of 'effect to ring charge'. Saint Walker, in one of his first blue lantern appearances, fixed a failing main sequence star using his ring- and I very much doubt he knows literally anything about how stars work.

In the comics, these 'prototype' rings were said to mentally alter their wielder so they 'became what they most feared' in order to force them to overcome it. Except it kind of didn't really do that? It actually made them experience intense avarice going by the actions of those who wielded them.

I could totally see mental alterations to make better [specific color] constructs being a thing, because the alterations to make someone really good at a given color's constructs would by their very nature would have to be color specific. Every ring makes constructs in a different way- though I suppose there is enough commonality that you might be able to make a generalized 'info' package that a ring could write onto users' brains to jumpstart their training.

Stuff like boosting intelligence, pattern recognition, and ye olde tutorial of 'hold emotion A while imagining thing B'? of course it's still rewriting someone's mind, which is problematic, but I could see a lot of lanterns taking advantage of something like that voluntarily if given the choice and if the downsides weren't so severe.
 
I was totally looking forward to OL getting a Jail Broken Scarab and green ring. I am now sad.
More conventional power-ups like those would be somewhat superfluous but yoinking the enemy's supergear is always awesome.
 
It would be highly inaccurate because someone using emotional light gains a transient property to their mental processes. Green Lanterns being able to maintain focus in spite of chemicals turning their brain to mush and things like that. It makes it hard to know exactly how much someone is able to focus on their constructs, and thus how powerful they are. Also, would a shard be able to accurately map the brain of someone inside a ring energy shield anyways? If not, then every time you use your ring you become very hard to predict
That's all stuff Shards can already do, not through the same methods as power rings mind you, but as I said before, as long as they can model the "what" the "how" of a thing doesn't matter so much.

And Yes, Shard sensors could, many of them are extra-dimensional in nature.

Mind you, all of this is kind of moot since Zoat refuses to actually read Worm and continually ignores Worm canon to have his SI run around as an unopposed unstoppable force there.
 
That's all stuff Shards can already do, not through the same methods as power rings mind you, but as I said before, as long as they can model the "what" the "how" of a thing doesn't matter so much.

And Yes, Shard sensors could, many of them are extra-dimensional in nature.

Mind you, all of this is kind of moot since Zoat refuses to actually read Worm and continually ignores Worm canon to have his SI run around as an unopposed unstoppable force there.
The problem is that channeling an emotional spectrum color results in behaviors that are not the result of any physical processes that can be observed. Green Light causes you to have increased willpower, by an undefined and inconsistent amount. This means that while you can generally model what their decisions will be by modeling their brain when it isn't channeling the emotional spectrum and their abilities by observing them while they are channeling the emotional spectrum, you cant accurately account for how channeling the emotional spectrum will influence their personality, decisions, and construct strength.

You could make a general model that is mostly accurate, but frankly, the emotional spectrum is most unpredictable when someone is pushed against the wall.
 
Ah, when I made my comment about charm-matter/anti-matter I was referring to an anti-matter variant that annihilated with charm-matter (both of which I presume that the Scarab is fabricating on-site since I can't imagine that they carry anti-matter around all the time), not the container being made of it.
If that's me not understanding how this all works than I'll blame me not being a particle physicist, and maybe not listening as well as I should have during an Isaac Arthur video.
The antimatter variant that annihilates with charmed matter is charmed antimatter: made of anti-charm, anti-strange, and anti-muons.
 
And this ring just tried to hotwire my brain into making better constructs. Better green constructs.

Is this function of this ring different from how Anti-Green rings work? Aside from the charging source, Anti-Green rings in this story 'compel' the bearer to experience sufficient Will to form constructs.
 
Newer GL comics (ie: Stuff occurring during [redacted]) I think I've heard of a couple instances of green rings healing without relying on detailed knowledge of how to do it, but from what I recall everyone and their mother basically tells the GL in question it's impossible.

Oddities with green rings healing are nothing new.

The guy who made Amazo also made an immortality procedure because he was afraid of death.

It disfigured him, and it was making him worse- It was a case of gone horribly right, the immortality was going to be as a sessile lump of immortal flesh.

And that was a horror that frightened him more than dying, but he couldn't fix it.

Ice, wearing Guy's ring, fixed him.

Guy's attitude was "What? No way, I couldn't even fix my hemorrhoids."

My conclusion would be that it seems willing boxing gloves to hit people in the face or flying around isn't the same as willing someone to be healthy, they aren't actually the same skill in the comics.

So I suppose in some universe in which it's the Green Lantern Medical Corps, the Guardians would recruit for being able to heal and not for righteous facepunching.
 
The problem is that channeling an emotional spectrum color results in behaviors that are not the result of any physical processes that can be observed. Green Light causes you to have increased willpower, by an undefined and inconsistent amount. This means that while you can generally model what their decisions will be by modeling their brain when it isn't channeling the emotional spectrum and their abilities by observing them while they are channeling the emotional spectrum, you cant accurately account for how channeling the emotional spectrum will influence their personality, decisions, and construct strength.

You could make a general model that is mostly accurate, but frankly, the emotional spectrum is most unpredictable when someone is pushed against the wall.
I'd need citation that Emotional Spectrum Technology is further away from what is physically possible and scientifically sensible than all the bullshit that the Entities pull.

Remember that the Entities initially evolved in order to combat each other and they definitely deal in weird emotional manipulation that affects power expression. Individual Shards also have no problem with interfering with each other and ruining each other's pet plans during the life cycle and so the Thinker-specialized Shards need to model powers they themselves don't know or personally have access to.
 
I'd need citation that Emotional Spectrum Technology is further away from what is physically possible and scientifically sensible than all the bullshit that the Entities pull.

This is a little absurd, requiring the equivalent of a statement from God about how Entities would interact with something from outside of their own fictional universe. We can use our own brains to figure things out if the author hasn't made a statement about cross-fictional interactions.

Remember that the Entities initially evolved in order to combat each other and they definitely deal in weird emotional manipulation that affects power expression.

No. The Emotional Electromagnetic Spectrum (Rainbow of Emotions is what I like to call it hahaha) is not just what an emotion is and how much it is present. The Entities think about emotions in the form of chemical reactions that cause certain behaviors. The metaphysical aspect associated with the Rainbow of Emotions, which is the very thing that I am saying will give them trouble with modeling Lanterns, is not even closely related to what the Entities do with emotions at all.

If you are referring to combat between an Entity and a Lantern, then the Metaphysical aspect of the Rainbow of Emotions will unreliably and passively protect them from having their emotions interrupted by the type of emotional manipulation that Entities use, but a Ring can actively protect them if they know about the threat.

Individual Shards also have no problem with interfering with each other and ruining each other's pet plans during the life cycle and so the Thinker-specialized Shards need to model powers they themselves don't know or personally have access to.

I don't think you understand my point. This is effectively the same as how Magic is an out-of-context problem for Orange Lantern at the beginning of this story. It took creativity to overcome that problem (something the entities are really bad at according to the author of worm), and it was still an ineffective solution.

Also, we must also (if we are talking generalities) ask how the emotional spectrum is being used in Worm. If it is an energy source that is naturally present in the setting, well they probably would already know about it and use it, but if it is an energy source from a foreign universe then it is effectively magic because it uses a different set of physics and the author of Worm said that magic is an instant win against Entities.

Metaphysics isn't really a thing in Worm, so an energy source that has different physical laws and metaphysical laws too is the closest thing to magic in Worm without actually being magic. I am only saying that it would be really hard to model Lanterns, and it would take a lot of research. Dont forget that they had to steal gravity manipulation tech from a society that used it, and they couldn't just look at what was being done to figure it out, they needed to steal the actual tech.
 
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This is a little absurd, requiring the equivalent of a statement from God about how Entities would interact with something from outside of their own fictional universe. We can use our own brains to figure things out if the author hasn't made a statement about cross-fictional interactions.



No. The Emotional Electromagnetic Spectrum (Rainbow of Emotions is what I like to call it hahaha) is not just what an emotion is and how much it is present. The Entities think about emotions in the form of chemical reactions that cause certain behaviors. The metaphysical aspect associated with the Rainbow of Emotions, which is the very thing that I am saying will give them trouble with modeling Lanterns, is not even closely related to what the Entities do with emotions at all.

If you are referring to combat between an Entity and a Lantern, then the Metaphysical aspect of the Rainbow of Emotions will unreliably and passively protect them from having their emotions interrupted by the type of emotional manipulation that Entities use, but a Ring can actively protect them if they know about the threat.



I don't think you understand my point. This is effectively the same as how Magic is an out-of-context problem for Orange Lantern at the beginning of this story. It took creativity to overcome that problem (something the entities are really bad at according to the author of worm), and it was still an ineffective solution.

Also, we must also (if we are talking generalities) ask how the emotional spectrum is being used in Worm. If it is an energy source that is naturally present in the setting, well they probably would already know about it and use it, but if it is an energy source from a foreign universe then it is effectively magic because it uses a different set of physics and the author of Worm said that magic is an instant win against Entities.

Metaphysics isn't really a thing in Worm, so an energy source that has different physical laws and metaphysical laws too is the closest thing to magic in Worm without actually being magic. I am only saying that it would be really hard to model Lanterns, and it would take a lot of research. Dont forget that they had to steal gravity manipulation tech from a society that used it, and they couldn't just look at what was being done to figure it out, they needed to steal the actual tech.
You're underestimating the calculation power of the entities. Canonically Earth was the first time they encountered music, and not only did it not cause any issues for them to model but there is a character whose power requires singing. Precog shards have multiple avenues available to them to model something they've never seen before.
Oh, and Pact canonically takes place on an alternate Earth in the greater Parahumans multiverse, and since the entities are multiversal beings, magic is not an out of context problem.
 
Far from just them. There is a significant trend in the modern mainstream that no authority can be good. No organisation can be uncorrupt. No heaven can be benevolent.
There are reasons for that (not necessarily good ones), some of which significantly pre-date the Rule 8 cut-off ('twenty years ago'), but I'm not sure if you particularly want to discuss them (and probably not in this thread).
 
Negetiations (part 22)
12th August 2012
22:39 GMT


"…that the Reach has disavowed any-."

"Good." I fly in through the hole shot in the office building where our peace talks have been taking place. "Because you weren't getting your money's worth."

The Negotiator appears to take my reappearance in his stride, though whether that's because he was confident I would win anyway or because he would have been in more political difficulty if the people he disavowed had I'm not sure. Miss Arfat on the other hand flutters her eyelids in what for the gyuanite is an expression of profound relief.

"They are dead?"

"The ships we detected and the scarab warrior accompanying them are all destroyed. I took some of the crew as constructs but there's little going on in their minds. There'll be no point in interrogating them."

She nods. "Salvage rights are of course awarded to your people, and a monetary sum will be deposited in your account to reflect the harm you have avenged."

"Thank you, but-" I give the Negotiator a hard look. "-until I know who actually ordered this, I can hardly count the job as completed."

"Rest assured that the Reach will deal with this off-mode element internally. Compensation will be paid to the families of the victims of this counter-canon mission." His eyes move to my right hand. "I see that you recovered the ring."

"No. I salvaged it. You're certainly not getting it."

"We never 'had' it. As I stated, the individuals behind the operation were doing so contrary to standing rules of process. Do you wish to continue these negotiations, or do you consider your mission here to be complete?"

It.. sort of is. I mean, I imagine that between my reassurances, my actions just now and their own anti-interventionist tendencies that the locals will be grateful enough to maintain our current relationship. And having a Reach ship kill a large number of non-combatants isn't going to endear the Reach to the people of Yuna. I only started talking as a distraction, so…

I shrug nonchalantly.

"Since we're both here. You know the Reach. Your culture already changed massively when you negotiated your treaty with the Green Lantern Corps, and I imagine that there were a lot of Reach military officers who didn't like that. Is that something your people would do again? Could they do it again? Is there… Any chance that N.E.M.O. could get anything like an acceptable deal in our current situation?"

"At this time I think it unlikely that the Hivemasters will be willing to accept the terms you proposed."

"Thank you! A straight answer!" I shrug. "But then there probably isn't any point." I nod to Miss Arfat. "Thank you for trying. In the unlikely event that we attempt a negotiated solution again, I'll be sure to come back here. I'll be available to your government for the next seven days in order for us to formalise our ongoing trading relationship, but under the circumstances… I think that a.. recess is in order."

She nods.

"I will make the necessary arrangements."

I nod, raise my index and middle fingers to my forehead and then do a regular transition to the spaceport landing platform which the Free Lancers are using.

The place is somewhat shot up, indentations and scorch marks in the super hard surface marking where the Scarab Warrior unleashed her arsenal. Or… I suppose it could have been Lantern K'ryssma; I don't have any information on what sort of constructs she prefers.

"Blimey."

Harrow purses his lips as he strolls out of his ship's force field envelope and takes a look around.

"Glad I kept my nose out of that one." He looks at me. "Is she still alive, by any chance?"

"Yes."

"Oh, good show! Since you've clearly gotten the ring I'm not too worried about you, but the Green Lantern Corps get a bit narked when one of them dies."

"This…" I raise my right hand. "Was what the Reach wanted?"

"The local Negotiator is my usual contact. They've been on the lookout for things that can fight Lanterns for a while now." He wrinkles his nose. "They don't usually use a Scarab to handle things."

"So you didn't get paid?"

"What?" He looks bemused. "Of course I didn't get paid. The Reach are usually really good about paying independent contractors, but when someone goes rogue it's tough luck. Not like I expect you to give it to me."

"Good, because I'm not going to."

"No. Interesting you didn't give it to that Green Lantern, though."

"There are some issues to work out on inter-Corps cooperation. And on that subject, if you should come across anything the Reach would be interested in, we're happy to counter-bid."

"I will certainly bear that in mind, Illustres. I thank you in advance for your future custom."

I nod. "I'd say that I'm sympathetic for your loss…"

"But that would be a lie." He shrugs. "The price of doing business. We price it in."

"I'm sure that attitude has helped you immensely in your chosen career. Farewell."

I raise my fingers to my forehead once more and transition again, this time reappearing next to Lantern Drusa inside our trade mission building.

"Illustres."

"Everything packed up?"

"Yes." She nods. "And they had offloaded enough cargo that we didn't need to dump anything." Her eyes alight on the ring. "Is that it?"

I hold it up. "Yes. Though I wouldn't recommend trying to use it. It does something to boost the strength of constructs. It wasn't a problem for me, but I doubt that would be the case for most people."

"What do you intend to do with it? Keep it?"

"No. Ring, contact Controller Hinon."

"Compliance."

Her face appears almost immediately.

"Yes?"

"I've got the ring. I assume that you want to take a look at it?"

"That would be pleasant. Meadlux wasn't involved in early power ring adaptation efforts. It could be instructive to see what he considered to be an 'improvement'." She regards me for a moment. "I hope you didn't have to tread on too many toes to get hold of it?"

"Not too many. See you in a week."
 
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You're underestimating the calculation power of the entities. Canonically Earth was the first time they encountered music, and not only did it not cause any issues for them to model but there is a character whose power requires singing. Precog shards have multiple avenues available to them to model something they've never seen before.
Oh, and Pact canonically takes place on an alternate Earth in the greater Parahumans multiverse, and since the entities are multiversal beings, magic is not an out of context problem.
Not an out of context problem? The author said that magic is beyond the entities in an interview on Reddit, that magic is effectively an instant win against them, and that they will never be able to use it if it existed because they lack creativity. Yeah, when someone asked him if Worm and Pact were in the same multiverse, if Taylor existed on a Pact Earth, he said "Sure, why not? But they won't show up." (I went and checked his comment from 2014 to be sure) and he has consistently said that there will be no crossovers.

Honestly, the only way to reconcile the statements is to basically say that Magic doesn't exist in Worm, but that magic allows someone to hypothetically jump from Pact to Worm. The point is that magic is beyond them though, and we can assume somewhat reasonably that Emotional Rainbow shit is beyond them too.
 
Also, we must also (if we are talking generalities) ask how the emotional spectrum is being used in Worm. If it is an energy source that is naturally present in the setting, well they probably would already know about it and use it, but if it is an energy source from a foreign universe then it is effectively magic because it uses a different set of physics and the author of Worm said that magic is an instant win against Entities.

I'm going to need a citation for that "Wildbow said that magic is an instant win against the Entities."
 
12th August 2012
22:39 GMT


"…that the Reach has disavowed any-."

"Good." I fly in through the hole shot in the office building where our peace talks has been taking place. "Because you weren't getting your money's worth."
Why, OL... Not fixing it behind you? You are feeling lazy today, aren't you? Then again, given the heavily bureaucratic nature of the gyuanites, he'd probably get fined for 'performing construction without the necessary permits'...

The Negotiator appears to take my reappearance in his stride, though whether that's because he was confident I would win anyway or because he would have been in more political difficulty if the people he disavowed had I'm not sure. Miss Arfat on the other hand flutters her eyelids in what for the gyuanite is an expression of profound relief.

"They are dead?"
Comprehensively so. And there's even a few pieces left, here and there.

"The ships we detected and the scarab warrior accompanying them are all destroyed. I took some of the crew as constructs but there's little going on in their minds. They'll be no point in interrogating them."

She nods. "Salvage rights are of course awarded to your people, and a monetary sum will be deposited in your account to reflect the harm you have avenged."
So no problems with him confiscating the Reach ship wreckage. And even got some local currency for souvenirs! But what about The Ring?

"Thank you, but-" I give the Negotiator a hard look. "-until I know who actually ordered this, I can hardly count the job as completed."

"Rest assured that the Reach will deal with this off-mode element internally. Compensation will be paid to the families of the victims of this counter-canon mission." His eyes move to my right hand. "I see that you recovered the ring."
Definitely feeling the hit to his career, I bet. Though I'm surprised OL is still taking the risk of wearing the ring personally. Presumably having his own ring block any other attempts to interface with him.

"No. I salvaged it. You're certainly not getting it."

"We never 'had' it. As I stated, the individuals behind the operation were doing so contrary to standing rules of process. Do you wish to continue these negotiations, or do you consider your mission here to be complete?"
I don't know... Which would inconvenience the Reach more? :p

It.. sort of is. I mean, I imagine that between my reassurances, my actions just now and their own anti-interventionist tendencies that the locals will be grateful enough to maintain our current relationship. And having a Reach ship kill a large number of non-combatants isn't going to endear the Reach to the people of Yuna. I only started talking as a distraction, so…

I shrug nonchalantly.
No skin off his nose, and no great impact on his free time.

"Since we're both here. You know the Reach. Your culture already changed massively when you negotiated your treaty with the Green Lantern Corps, and I imagine that there were a lot of Reach military officers who didn't like that. Is that something your people would do again? Could they do it again? Is there… Any chance that N.E.M.O. could get anything like an acceptable deal in our current situation?"

"At this time I think it unlikely that the Hivemasters will be willing to accept the terms you proposed."
Well, that lays it out nice and clear. Hopefully they'll end up changing their minds later, as things turn against them...

"Thank you! A straight answer!" I shrug. "But then there probably isn't any point." I nod to Miss Arfat. "Thank you for trying. In the unlikely event that we attempt a negotiated solution again, I'll be sure to come back here. I'll be available to your government for the next seven days in order for us to formalise our ongoing trading relationship, but under the circumstances… I think that a.. recess is in order."

She nods.

"I will make the necessary arrangements."
Oh, good, more sitting around in dull conference rooms. Perhaps this is something he can fob off on Drusa, then. Or, you know, any N.E.M.O. staff who actually came with them for that purpose.

I nod, raise my index and forefinger to my forehead and then do a regular transition to the spaceport, landing platform which the Free Lancers are using.

The place is somewhat shot up, indentations and scorch marks in the super hard surface marking where the Scarab Warrior unleashed her arsenal. Or… I suppose it could have been Lantern K'ryssma; I don't have any information on what sort of constructs she prefers.
Huh. Okay, so greedyporting with The Ring is no problem? That's one question settled. He hasn't jaunted back to Hinon and handed it over because... o_O He wants to make sure K'Ryssma isn't going to complain?
Scratch that, he used a normal FTL transition (I missed that, got fooled by the greediport gesture...) Still, plenty of time for K'Ryssma to call in to the Guardians, maybe get some backup... I get the feeling this isn't over.

"Blimey."

Harrow purses his lips as he strolls out of his ship's force field envelope and takes a look around.
I see they came out of it without a scratch. Lucky them.

"Glad I kept my nose out of that one." He looks at me. "Is she still alive, by any chance?"

"Yes."
Wonder why she isn't here yet. Still patching herself up?

"Oh, good show! Since you've clearly gotten the ring I'm not too worried about you, but the Green Lantern Corps get a bit narked when one of them dies."

"This…" I raise my right hand. "Was what the Reach wanted?"

"The local Negotiator is my usual contact. They've been on the lookout for things that can fight Lanterns for a while now." He wrinkles his nose. "They don't usually use a Scarab to handle things."
And another question confirmed. Evidently the Reach aren't as confident with anti-Spectrum options as some thought.

"So you didn't get paid?"

"What?" He looks bemused. "Of course I didn't get paid. The Reach are usually really good about paying independent contractors, but when someone goes rogue it's tough luck. Not like I expect you to give it to me."
Oh well. I'm sure a clever fellow like you can find another payday... On a planet known for interstellar trade...

"Good, because I'm not going to."

"No. Interesting you didn't give it to that Green Lantern, though."
She didn't ask nicely enough. Now the matter gets passed up to their respective bosses.

"There are some issues to work out on inter-Corps cooperation. And on that subject, if you should come across anything the Reach would be interested in, we're happy to counter-bid."

"I will certainly bear that in mind, Illustres. I thank you in advance for your future custom."
Though I suspect he'll ask for hard currency up front as a deposit, from now on...

I nod. "I'd say that I'm sympathetic for your loss…"

"But that would be a lie." He shrugs. "The price of doing business. We price it in."
...A very large deposit.

"I'm sure that attitude has helped you immensely in your chosen career. Farewell."

I raise my fingers to my forehead once more and transition again, this time reappearing next to Lantern Drusa inside our trade mission building.
Well, back to the boring side of the job...

"Illustres."

"Everything packed up?"

"Yes." She nods. "And they had offloaded enough cargo that we didn't need to dump anything." Her eyes alight on the ring. "Is that it?"
No going and getting any ideas, Junior.

I hold it up. "Yes. Though I wouldn't recommend trying to use it. It does something to boost the strength of constructs. It wasn't a problem for me, but I doubt that would be the case for most people."

"What do you intend to do with it? Keep it?"
Why keep it when you can have R&D learn everything about it and make a better one?

"No. Ring, contact Controller Hinon."

"Compliance."

Her face appears almost immediately.
:rolleyes: You'd think she was waiting by the phone ring for his callback, with how quick she picked up.

"Yes?"

"I've got the ring. I assume that you want to take a look at it?"
In the same way you can assume water is wet, Earth grass is green and most Guardians are jerks, yes.

"That would be pleasant. Meadlux wasn't involved in early power ring adaptation efforts. It could be instructive to see what he considered to be an 'improvement'." She regards me for a moment. "I hope you didn't have to tread on too many toes to get hold of it?"

"Not too many. See you in a week."
"Illustres, I know you can be here in a moment's thought. I want that ring somewhere safe now, if you please." Considering his evident reluctance to greediport with it, maybe not...

I really hope he doesn't plan to wear that thing all week. Sure, he might be blocking it now, but who knows how aggressive that mental effect is? I mean, it's not like the gyuanites will be able to notice his transit... Or is it more that he doesn't want to risk such a long hop through the Honden with it? o_O

They'll be no point in interrogating them.
There'll be no point in interrogating them.
 
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