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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

From context, the highlighted sentence doesn't make sense unless it was supposed to be something like

"Because of the repercussions. An Orange Lantern who has decided to kill someone isn't going to be put off by the fact that they may have to kill themselves to do so."
No, it makes sense. Toren is pointing out that rushing a Sector like that would cause havoc with existing power structures. The SI is saying that Orange Lanterns wouldn't consider that bad. Orange Lanterns wouldn't kick over an ant hill and then complain about the ants.
 
I bow my head. Should I be proud or ashamed that humans are known for being fecund and dangerously crazy? I mean… As I said, it's not unreasonable.
Who do you think it is that GAVE humans that reputation? Or rather, any reputation at all, Mr. "Never miss a chance to spout off about Earth insanity"?
 
Sungate (part 2)
11th September 2012
08:36 GMT


"…you think that's what it takes?"

Interesting. Hearing what I actually did to the Guild-owned worlds to force them to cease their offensives appears to have knocked Vode-M out of her constantly-focused state. Which lets me get a slightly better look at her. Ah, yes, someone lives a little closer to the border, don't they?

"There's a saying on my homeworld. 'You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs'." I shrug. "I don't see a way to stop the Spider Guild that doesn't involve vastly reducing their industrial power as well as their military. And forget about occupying their Nests; you'd need an army of billions for each world, plus a fleet… Do you have one?"

"No."

"Do you have a plan to get one?"

"I have working agreements with the militaries of all worlds in my Sector, but I haven't tried to recruit a force for myself."

I take a bite of something that's very nearly a crumpet, covered in what is actually jam from a local fruit that reminds me of the fig.

"So what was the plan? I can see how much you hate them, and how much of your life revolves around that hatred. Presumably you have… Some idea of how you were going to realise that ambition. Tell me."

"I negotiated for access to the network of sensor buoys each world maintains, and I intercept every ship I can. I've convinced Lanterns from neighbouring Sectors to meet up to share information, and to make recordings of everything they see. My aim is to shame the worlds of this region into increasing the strength of their militaries until they can combine their efforts to destroy the Guild."

I nod as I chew, then swallow.

"Any progress?"

"I've intercepted hundreds of vessels."

I nod. "Probably keeping the price up nicely. What about the military build up?"

"I wouldn't be talking to you if it was going as I want it to."

"I am actually slightly impressed by that, by the way. A lot of Green Lanterns will beat their head against a wall until the wall breaks. I mean, that's a problem for a lot of people, but the Green Lantern Corps deliberately trains for it."

"I don't want to engage in wholesale slaughter. Plenty of civilisations manage perfectly well without cannibalism and piracy."

"Not theirs. Do you know how many Nests have ever reformed?"

"I wasn't aware that any had."

"Oh, yes. Precisely one. Sector Two Eight Two Eight. They lost a war and their entire leadership was killed, but the victors didn't want to launch an invasion. So -and this is the funny bit- one of their biological experiments took control of the Nest and negotiated a surrender, which she could do because she hadn't had a normal Guild upbringing or socialisation and so didn't share their assumptions. And she'd have been killed if I hadn't been around to look after her."

"How did she take over?"

"It wasn't just the leadership who'd been killed; it was most of the adults. Their new ruler, the Queen, was free to culturise the children in any way she wanted, so she left out everything that wasn't helpful and had to leave out everything she didn't know."

"Is that your plan? Kill every adult-."

"No, of course not. It's completely impractical. Who would bring up the children? Someone from the civilisations on the border, populated by people who hate them? Or… Default to hating them, since they won't have had any personal contact. Would they? Would you?"

"No. Would this 'Queen'?"

"She wouldn't take that many. And why ask her to take any at all? Biologically, she's got all of the records on Guilder genetics that she needs. Sociologically, she's in her teens and she's created something better; nothing worth preserving there. Which leaves the idea of valuing individual existence for its own sake, which… Yes, I do. I just don't value them more than the people who will eventually be their victims."

"You want to kill… All of them."

"No. I don't actually care all that much about the Spider Guild. I'm just using them as training dummies for the Lanterns I'm trying to upskill because I recognise them as the drain on universal utility that they are. If I wanted them dead, then I assure you: they would be dead."

"You're willing to see them all dead."

"Not all. As I said, the Queen is abiding by the terms of her surrender, and has reformed her Nest. But all the ones here? Certainly."

I finish off my pseudo-crumpet as she considers her response.

"But I imagine that makes you uncomfortable. So tell me, if the stellar nations of the region had done as you want and mustered their forces, what would you want their rules of engagement to be?"

"It wouldn't be my decision."

"It wouldn't be your decision because it's not going to happen. But if it was? Hm? Target only warships, known pirates and military installations?"

She doesn't rise to the bait.

"I use the Guild for target practice, because they're both nearly as bad as it gets, and weaker than the people who are actually as bad as it gets. But come on. Would anyone be willing to occupy those worlds?"

"They would not."

"Do you believe that there is some substantial internal resistance who you could work with to form a collaborationist government?"

"No. There is none."

"The Green Lantern Corps usually limits itself to arresting named individuals. Do you believe-?"

"There is no one I could arrest who would not be replaced by someone near-identical."

"See, I get it. You're a good person. You want to help people, improve their circumstances, rescue them from those who would enslave and consume them. But while you're trying to go about it in a reasonably rational way, I can see how you feel about the methods I'd use. So what do you really want? Do you want to be someone who fights the Spider Guild? Or do you want to actually destroy them?"

"By killing every last member of their civilisation."

"Or by whatever method you can make work. Because as far as I can see, what you're doing isn't bringing you any closer to that objective. All it's doing is making you fail more efficiently."

I lean forward slightly.

"What do you want, Lantern Vode-M? What is your most fundamental desire? What drives you to fight? What does your ideal universe look like?"

"I thought you already knew."

"I've got a fairly good idea. But these sessions can cause changes in our reflective equilibrium. Would you like to join my other students, or have I said enough to drive you off yet?"
 
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"You want to kill… All of them. You're willing to see them all dead."
"It's one of the fundamental problems when writers create a planet of hats as an antagonist. If their entire society is fundamentally 'evil' in a way that allows the protagonist to destroy them without moral grey areas, it begs the question; is there a reason not to finish the job?"

"Wait, what?"
 
I take a bite of something that's very nearly a crumpet, covered the what is actually jam from a local fruit that reminds me of the fig.

should be ' in '

"I've intercepted hundred of vessels."

' hundreds '

"I would be talking to you if it was going as I want it to."

' wouldn't ' or 'would not '

"Not theirs. Do you know how many Nest have ever reformed?"

' Nests '

"But I imagine that makes you uncomfortable. So tell me, if the stellar nations of the region had done as you want an mustered their forces, what would you want their rules of engagement to be?"

' and '
 
"I use the Guild for target practice, because they're both nearly as bad as it gets, and weaker than the people who are actually as bad as it gets. But come on. Would anyone be willing to occupy those worlds?"
And it just clicked for me that the Controllers are doing the same thing but with the Reach and the entire Orange Lantern Corps.
 
And it just clicked for me that the Controllers are doing the same thing but with the Reach and the entire Orange Lantern Corps.

Indeed they are!

I had a thought, though; the Controllers only care about the number of 'universe-ending calamity' scale threats out there. How many of those actually exist? It's DC, so more than probably should.

Anti-Monitor
Starbreaker
Darkseid
Mageddon
Some of the more exotic New God tech like Metron?
 
Indeed they are!

I had a thought, though; the Controllers only care about the number of 'universe-ending calamity' scale threats out there. How many of those actually exist? It's DC, so more than probably should.

Anti-Monitor
Starbreaker
Darkseid
Mageddon
Some of the more exotic New God tech like Metron?
Any given human, at any time, for any reason.

Sometimes for shits n' giggles
 
Indeed they are!

I had a thought, though; the Controllers only care about the number of 'universe-ending calamity' scale threats out there. How many of those actually exist? It's DC, so more than probably should.

Anti-Monitor
Starbreaker
Darkseid
Mageddon
Some of the more exotic New God tech like Metron?

Assuming comic levels of insanity? Well...

Any mage could, at least in theory, become powerful enough to just snuff out the entire multiverse.

The Over Monitor could decide that watching whatever the weird thing inside of it is doing isn't worth it anymore and find a way to delete it.

Retconn could cancel their DC line of products and remove the multiverse from existence.

Starro could gain access to The Collective Unconscious and just win.

Trigon could snap his fingers and kill everyone at once.

And on the list goes. It's really more a question of what can't kill off everyone and everything in DC.
 
11th September 2012
08:36 GMT


"…you think that's what it takes?"

Interesting. Hearing what I actually did to the Guild-owned worlds to force them to cease their offensives appears to have knocked Vode-M out of her constantly-focused state. Which lets me get a slightly better look at her. Ah, yes, someone lives a little closer to the border, don't they?
Of course she's gung-ho to do the work, until she actually hears what the work involves. Such a common situation. Certainly, she may have the resolve to do it, but does she have the stomach for what's needed? Okay, might have misread a bit there. Still, I suppose it's one thing to want to do these things you aren't allowed to, but quite another to hear someone who has done them talk about them. Like the difference between, say, shooting in a video-game and shooting a real gun.

"There's a saying on my homeworld. 'You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs'." I shrug. "I don't see a way to stop the Spider Guild that doesn't involve vastly reducing their industrial power as well as their military. And forget about occupying their Nests; you'd need an army of billions for each world, plus a fleet… Do you have one?"

"No."
Especially since that sort of thing could be seen as pulling a Sinestro... There would be very pointed questions being asked of her by the Guardians...

"Do you have a plan to get one?"

"I have working agreements with the militaries of all worlds in my Sector, but I haven't tried to recruit a force for myself."
Ah, but agreements will only go so far. And even a Green Lantern doesn't have the kind of budget needed to start a private fleet.

I take a bite of something that's very nearly a crumpet, covered the what is actually jam from a local fruit that reminds me of the fig.

"So what was the plan? I can see how much you hate them, and how much of your life revolves around that hatred. Presumably you have… Some idea of how you were going to realise that ambition. Tell me."
Ironically, I bet that hatred would go a ways to earning her a Red Ring if they existed. Not that it'd be much use making her a berserker...

"I negotiated for access to the network of sensor buoys each world maintains, and I intercept every ship I can. I've convinced Lanterns from neighbouring Sectors to meet up to share information, and to make recordings of everything they see. My aim is to shame the worlds of this region into increasing the strength of their militaries until they can combine their efforts to destroy the Guild."

I nod as I chew, then swallow.
In other words, you've been taking a downright Orange Lantern route to getting what you want.

"Any progress?"

"I've intercepted hundred of vessels."
Whoopie. They probably have thousands shipping. A drop in the ocean.

I nod. "Probably keeping the price up nicely. What about the military build up?"

"I would be talking to you if it was going as I want it to."
Not as fast as you'd like, then. Gee, you'd think inciting an entire Sector into an interstellar war wouldn't be so hard, huh? ;)

"I am actually slightly impressed by that, by the way. A lot of Green Lanterns will beat their head against a wall until the wall breaks. I mean, that's a problem for a lot of people, but the Green Lantern Corps deliberately trains for it."

"I don't want to engage in wholesale slaughter. Plenty of civilisations manage perfectly well without cannibalism and piracy."
Indeed. It's like some cosmic writer needed an unequivocally bad guy for a protagonist to fight...

"Not theirs. Do you know how many Nest have ever reformed?"

"I wasn't aware that any had."
Because you weren't looking on the right place.

"Oh, yes. Precisely one. Sector Two Eight Two Eight. They lost a war and their entire leadership was killed, but the victors didn't want to launch an invasion. So -and this is the funny bit- one of their biological experiments took control of the Nest and negotiated a surrender, which she could do because she hadn't had a normal Guild upbringing or socialisation and so didn't share their assumptions. And she'd have been killed if I hadn't been around to look after her."
Ah, our dear Spider Queen. About the closest thing to a 'good' Spider Guild nest in the galaxy...

"How did she take over?"

"It wasn't just the leadership who'd been killed; it was most of the adults. Their new ruler the Queen was free to culturise the children in any way she wanted, so she left out everything that wasn't helpful and had to leave out everything she didn't know."
Which says a lot about their culture. Still, her neighbours are much happier about it.

"Is that your plan? Kill every adult-."

"No, of course not. It's completely impractical. Who would bring up the children? Someone from the civilisations on the border, populated by people who hate them? Or… Default to hating them, since they won't have had any personal contact. Would they? Would you?"
Just imagine the psychological abuse that would produce, even if they didn't realise it.

"No. Would this 'Queen'?"

"She wouldn't take that many. And why ask her to take any at all? Biologically, she's got all of the records on Guilder genetics that she needs. Sociologically, she's in her teens and she's created something better; nothing worth preserving there. Which leaves the idea of valuing individual existence for its own sake, which… Yes, I do. I just don't value them more than the people who will eventually be their victims."
Because when you take to eating other sapient life when you don't absolutely need to? You've basically forfeited your right to continued existence...

"You want to kill… All of them."

"No. I don't actually care all that much about the Spider Guild. I'm just using them as training dummies for the Lanterns I'm trying to upskill because I recognise them as the drain on universal utility that they are. If I wanted them dead, then I assure you: they would be dead."
And their tech level is high enough for it to not be a total walkover. So his trainees actually have to work for it. Like punching bags that can punch back.

"You're willing to see them all dead."

"Not all. As I said, the Queen is abiding by the terms of her surrender, and has reformed her Nest. But all the ones here? Certainly."
And you'd rejoice at the victory. Plus the lessons learned by your students are always useful.

I finish off my pseudo-crumpet as she considers her response.

"But I imagine that makes you uncomfortable. So tell me, if the stellar nations of the region had done as you want an mustered their forces, what would you want their rules of engagement to be?"
Because there's a big difference between warfare and genocide, and I think some of those races you plan to involve might draw the line at the latter.

"It wouldn't be my decision."

"It wouldn't be your decision because it's not going to happen. But if it was? Hm? Target only warships, known pirates and military instillations?"
A tiny fraction of the whole problem. You'd be treating a symptom, not the root cause.

She doesn't rise to the bait.

"I use the Guild for target practice, because they're both nearly as bad as it gets, and weaker than the people who are actually as bad as it gets. But come on. Would anyone be willing to occupy those worlds?"
Whether after wiping the spiders out or not. Since they can live on worlds inhospitable to regular humanoids...

"They would not."

"Do you believe that there is some substantial internal resistance who you could work with to form a collaborationist government?"
Pfft! As if...

"No. There is none."

"The Green Lantern Corps usually limits itself to arresting named individuals. Do you believe-?"

"There is no one I could arrest who would not be replaced by someone near-identical."
Their culture doesn't really lend itself to making those who would object to the state of 'normal'...

"See, I get it. You're a good person. You want to help people, improve their circumstances, rescue them from those who would enslave and consume them. But while you're trying to go about it in a reasonably rational way, I can see how you feel about the methods I'd use. So what do you really want? Do you want to be someone who fights the Spider Guild? Or do you want to actually destroy them?"

"By killing every last member of their civilisation."
Yes, since even one functioning Nest would simply begin rebuilding. Total genocide or nothing at all. There is no middle ground here.

"Or by whatever method you can make work. Because as far as I can see, what you're doing isn't bringing you any closer to that objective. All it's doing is making you fail more efficiently."

I lean forward slightly.
Admirable, but pointless. And no doubt frustrating for her...

"What do you want, Lantern Vode-M? What is your most fundamental desire? What drives you to fight? What does your ideal universe look like?"

"I thought you already knew."
More than likely, but saying it helps you more than it does him.

"I've got a fairly good idea. But these sessions can cause changes in our reflexive equilibrium. Would you like to join my other students, or have I said enough to drive you off yet?"
Since I don't think she'd be happy wearing the Orange. Totally not her colour...

It's a rare sight to see OL not happily handing out a Ring to someone who asks for it. But then, when you can see if it's not what someone really wants, its easy to dissuade them of that notion. And I can't say Vode-M's preparations haven't been beneficial to the rest of the Sector. Getting other races to see each other as ally rather than enemy definitely makes them more likely to help each other... Ah, if only the Greenies had a diplomatic branch...
 
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"You want to kill… All of them."

"No. I don't actually care all that much about the Spider Guild. I'm just using them as training dummies for the Lanterns I'm trying to upskill because I recognise them as the drain on universal utility that they are. If I wanted them dead, then I assure you: they would be dead."

"You're willing to see them all dead."

She's sharp and quick to catch on.
She already knows everything that OL has pointed out in this discussion and has already come to the obvious conclusion, but she's not willing to actually voice it, because she was brought up to think that "Just blow up their planets and kill them all" is something that only bad people suggest.

Paul is even scarier because he doesn't personally hate them enough to even care about solving this problem, because if he did he'd have already blown up their planets without even hesitating.
Instead he recognizes that them being so cartoonish evil that there's no moral or ethical reason not to exterminate them makes them wonderful punching bags for his little Orange Lanterns to train on.

Of course she's gung-ho to do the work, until she actually hears what the work involves. Such a common situation. Certainly, she may have the resolve to do it, but does she have the stomach for what's needed?

She seems to already know what the work involves, but she's hesitating because she's sure that it can't actually be the right answer.

OL pointed out step by step that there's absolutely no method of permamently solving the problem without just killing all of them, and she was right there with him along every step of his reasoning.
This isn't a new thought to her.
She knows. She's probably known for a long time.

But "Fuck it, just genocide them." isn't something that a member of the green lantern corps should suggest. That's the sort of thing that gets your ring taken away.

And even then, the plan with convincing all of the neighbours to up-arm... she had to have known what they'd do if they could fight the spider-guild and win. They'd have exterminated them.
But it wouldn't have been her fault, because she wouldn't have been the one in command.
 
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military instillations?
instillations -> installations
"I've got a fairly good idea. But these sessions can cause changes in our reflexive equilibrium. Would you like to join my other students, or have I said enough to drive you off yet?"
OL's really leaning into his sensai role. I like it.

Could Vode-M get around the Guardian's rules by subspacing her green ring and using an orange ring to kill spider guilders?
 
Paragon is trying to recruit her but only is she has the focus to Want properly. I do think this chapter is a nice explainer of his attitude to the guild. It's a wasps nest and really the only solution is fire.
 
Their new ruler the Queen was free to culturise the children in any way she wanted, so she left out everything that wasn't helpful and had to leave out everything she didn't know.
I think there should be commas there, making it: Their new ruler, the Queen, was free to culturise the children in any way she wanted, so she left out everything that wasn't helpful and had to leave out everything she didn't know.
 
"By killing every last member of their civilisation."

"Or by whatever method you can make work. Because as far as I can see, what you're doing isn't bringing you any closer to that objective. All it's doing is making you fail more efficiently."

I lean forward slightly.

"What do you want, Lantern Vode-M? What is your most fundamental desire? What drives you to fight? What does your ideal universe look like?"

"I thought you already knew."

"I've got a fairly good idea. But these sessions can cause changes in our reflexive equilibrium. Would you like to join my other students, or have I said enough to drive you off yet?"
Easy easy there Paul. You're already hooking her now let out the line or the tension will cause a break.
 

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