With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Silveraith · Oct 14, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
At the very least, hearing about another worked example will help him clarify his thoughts.

Working.

Hell's Razer · Oct 14, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
By context, I would guess that means 'Friendly!' or 'Ally!' ...Though what was that about the trousers?

It means hello, though of course they would be laughing at Paul. There is no k sound in "Χαίρετε", that χ is pronounced similar to the 'h' in home or hello though more pronounced.

Similarly the sound of the letter is not 'chi' but 'hi' (NOT 'hai' as the word hi is pronounced in English) same 'h' sound.
Though I understand why they would write it that way, as it is kinda hard to differentiate the english greeting from the sound of the greek word.

Mr Zoat · Oct 14, 2021

Hell's Razer said:
It means hello, though of course they would be laughing at Paul. There is no k sound in "Χαίρετε", that χ is pronounced similar to the 'h' in home or hello though more pronounced.

Similarly the sound of the letter is not 'chi' but 'hi' (NOT 'hai' as the word hi is pronounced in English) same 'h' sound.
Though I understand why they would write it that way, as it is kinda hard to differentiate the english greeting from the sound of the greek word.

To be clear: I the author do not speak any form of Greek.

Silveraith said:
Working.

No, that's correct. It means when a textbook shows you step by step how an equation works. An example that's been worked out.

Hell's Razer · Oct 14, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
To be clear: I the author do not speak any form of Greek.

I know I'm just poking some fun towards the unfortunate choices of english speaking academics (and more importantly "academics") when attempting to phonetically write greek words they have never heard.

Edit: as for the first part, I was referencing this:

Starts at 0:11

DrThoth · Oct 14, 2021

I'm rereading a bit of the Earth -16 episode and the mentions of the Zatara Crime Family's signature backwards-talking magic that can't really be faked. I remember Sephtian's excitement and bafflement at testing her ability as well. Is the source of their logomancy in this setting going to be given an explanation at some point?
I personally have a headcanon about Leonardo da Vinci (Zatanna's ancestor) and Dream of the Endless being lovers or at least patron and..patronee? (what would someone who has a patron be called?), to explain the power of words reshaping reality.

Coda · Oct 14, 2021

Hell's Razer said:
It means hello, though of course they would be laughing at Paul. There is no k sound in "Χαίρετε", that χ is pronounced similar to the 'h' in home or hello though more pronounced.

Similarly the sound of the letter is not 'chi' but 'hi' (NOT 'hai' as the word hi is pronounced in English) same 'h' sound.
Though I understand why they would write it that way, as it is kinda hard to differentiate the english greeting from the sound of the greek word.

Not in ancient Greek! Χ was an aspirated velar stop, which means "kh" (the h isn't silent) is exactly the right way to describe it. And Themysciran Greek is closer to ancient Greek than modern or even Koine Greek, as they broke away from the rest of civilization circa 1200 BC.

Also, χαίρετε is specifically plural, so it's a greeting for groups of people.

DrThoth said:
what would someone who has a patron be called?

There's not a precise word in modern English for it. If you backtrack to definitions that are obsolete in modern use, the appropriate term is "protege."

Stsword · Oct 14, 2021

DrThoth said:
I'm rereading a bit of the Earth -16 episode and the mentions of the Zatara Crime Family's signature backwards-talking magic that can't really be faked. I remember Sephtian's excitement and bafflement at testing her ability as well. Is the source of their logomancy in this setting going to be given an explanation at some point?
I personally have a headcanon about Leonardo da Vinci (Zatanna's ancestor) and Dream of the Endless being lovers or at least patron and..patronee? (what would someone who has a patron be called?), to explain the power of words reshaping reality.

Zoat seems to be going with the Zatara logomancy being a genetic legacy- can't be faked because for non-Zataras it's as magical as pig latin.

DrThoth · Oct 14, 2021

Stsword said:
Zoat seems to be going with the Zatara logomancy being a genetic legacy- can't be faked because for non-Zataras it's as magical as pig latin.

I figured, but I was wondering if he'd provide an origin for it like he's done for other things (like the Genomorphs coming from a Kryptonian 'unicorn'-hybrid)

Hell's Razer · Oct 14, 2021

Coda said:
Also, χαίρετε is specifically plural, so it's a greeting for groups of people.

Also it is used specifically as what is called politeness plural. Generally it is a semiformal to formal way to say hello to someone or someones who you are not familiar with or to whom you were introduced for the first time.

As for this:

Coda said:
Not in ancient Greek!

I will remain skeptical until someone links me an actual academic paper, and just treat it as the quick and easy excuse that Hollywood used it as; to not bother to get things right with an (admittedly) troublesome to get right language.

Mr Zoat · Oct 14, 2021

DrThoth said:
I'm rereading a bit of the Earth -16 episode and the mentions of the Zatara Crime Family's signature backwards-talking magic that can't really be faked. I remember Sephtian's excitement and bafflement at testing her ability as well. Is the source of their logomancy in this setting going to be given an explanation at some point?

Probably not.

I personally have a headcanon about Leonardo da Vinci (Zatanna's ancestor) and Dream of the Endless being lovers or at least patron and..patronee? (what would someone who has a patron be called?), to explain the power of words reshaping reality.

Sounds about right.

Cherico · Oct 15, 2021

You know how Paul bought 40k did he bring back the squats?

Coda · Oct 15, 2021

Hell's Razer said:
I remain will remain skeptical until someone links me an actual academic paper, and just treat it as the quick and easy excuse that Hollywood used it as, to not bother to get things right with an (admittedly) troublesome to get right language.

https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0521335558 says (emphasis in original):

Vox Graeca said:
The evidence for this category is required primarily to show that in classical Attic the sounds written φ, θ, χ were aspirated plosives, like the ph, th, kh of Sanskrit and the modern Indian languages (and similar to the initial p, t, k of English or German), and not fricatives* as in modern Greek
[...]
When a final voiceless unaspirated plosive (π, τ, κ) stands before an aspirated vowel [...] it is changed to φ, θ, χ; which can only mean that φ, θ, χ here stand for aspirated [ph], [th], [kh], and not for fricatives.

Mr Zoat · Oct 15, 2021

11th September 2012
20:38 GMT

Athyns and I both head towards the forward edge of the defenders' position.

"Sorry to spring this on you." I take the sword out of subspace and offer it to him. "But you might find this helpful."

"A war-prize?"

"Their technology. The gods told me that you are a descendent of Rhea yourself, so you should be able to use it."

"I… Had suspected, but-."

The soldiers at the edge of our position open fire. Athyns ducks slightly, then takes the sword and hefts it.

"If it helps with their damnable personal shields then I will take it."

"Good show."

I shoot into the air, immediately drawing fire from the attackers' advanced party. Nothing particularly troubling. They all seem to be equipped as light infantry, and their weapons have nothing like the power needed to meaningfully damage my shields. I generate a draconic claw construct and send it downwards, grabbing the closest and pulling him into the air. He struggles for a moment, then prepares for death.

Admirable.

"Hello. I'd like to arrange a parlay. Who do I need to speak to in order to do that?"

"There will be no parlay with the servants of the parasites!"

"Now, are you informing me of policy there, or are you just talking me down? Has Sparta ordered no parlay with anyone?"

He hesitates.

"No, the-. The false gods are condemned, but she-. She has not made any decree on the fate of their servants."

"Then, surely, from your point of view… Is it not reasonable to grant pardon to the slaves of the false gods, who serve them because they know no other life?"

"I-. Who are you?"

"I am the Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps. Not one of the false gods you're here to fight, though that's sort of happened anyway. If you could send a message to your commanding officer?"

"The false gods still stand! Their soldiers still fight!"

"If you don't negotiate with them, they'll be forced to fight to the last. They will kill more of your side than they would otherwise. I don't see how that's advantageous."

I smile broadly.

"Would you please explain it to me?"

"I… I don't think that they would surrender…"

"You have the authority to make that determination?"

"No! But-. Ah, I can.. contact my squad leader?"

"Why are you asking my permission? I'm your enemy."

He reaches around the construct talons and taps his neck. "Primus. One of the fa-. Um, defenders, is requesting a parlay. Is there-?"

He pauses, and I don't listen in to the other half of the conversation.

"No, they're still resisting." I glance down. The scouting party is fanning out to form a containment perimeter, but not advancing. I'm not sure that Athyns' party could attack. "Because… Most of them are Karrakanian. If they hear the truth of the Ascendants-. Ah, of course, but are there… No conditions..? Yes, but I'm uninjured and he makes… A good point. We are all Rhea's people, and this is-."

There's a longer pause.

"Thank you, Primus." He looks directly at me. "My Primus will speak with you and the leader of the-. The soldiers below us. Just the two of you."

"Can your Primus order a wider ceasefire?"

"No, but he can take you to an Ascendant who can, if he thinks that it is worthwhile."

"Can't say fairer than that. And in the meanwhile?"

"Our soldiers will not attack if yours do the same, and will not advance further if yours do not retreat."

"Accepted."

I descend at speed, swapping the construct claw for a simple tether. Athyns readies his sword and two other defenders point their guns at us as I return to ground level.

"Good news; they've agreed to parlay."

My prisoner stares at Athyns' face in clear shock. Athyns merely frowns back.

"And that is good?"

"While these things can't always be settled through reasoned debate, one of the most important rules of warfare where I'm from is that both sides should openly state what they're trying to achieve. Aside from anything else, it encourages seeing the people you're killing as people, and not as some faceless manifestation of an abstract principle. Also."

I take a couple of purple healing ray devices out of subspace and thrust them at the soldiers acting as medical orderlies.

"Universal healing rays. Patch your soldiers up."

My 'prisoner' looks shocked. "That-."

"Is a technology that I will be happy to share upon the cessation of hostilities, but I am on the opposing side at the moment."

"It's… Yes. I can.. lead you to my Primus. You'll need to stow your weapons."

I dismiss my construct guns, while Athyns awkwardly holds the sword-.

I fabricate him a sheath and pass it over, and he sheathes the sword and attaches the sheath to his equipment harness.

"Adequate?"

He points to the tether and I remove that as well. Then he nods. "This way."

We follow up out of the area Athyns' soldiers are hunkering down in, out into an area where the attackers' scouts have a clear view of us. No shots, though they peer out only cautiously, checking that their colleague is alive and well. One nods and waves us onwards before getting back into full cover.

"I don't suppose that you took armour as a prize as well?"

"Sorry. I feel a little off about stripping corpses. I mean, if you try and kill me with something then you've got no right to complain if I keep it, but taking someone's clothes seems unsavoury."

We're led through sensor domes and shield generators and past the bodies of the fallen. Gradually we begin seeing more of the attackers' soldiers. No vehicles or Ascendants, but they're clearly mustering. A few have wounds or other battle damage, but the advantage of advancing is that you can gather your wounded somewhere safe.

A soldier with gold stripes on his armour is giving orders to a few without, but looks around as we approach. He takes a moment to look us over, then dismisses our escort with a gesture.

"I am the Primus of this cohort. What are you?"

"I am Athyns, commander of the New Cronus garrison."

"Is that high?"

"I report directly to the gods."

The Primus snorts contemptuously.

"Haven't you heard, commander? The gods are dead."

Darko · Oct 15, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
them, they'll be force to

'forced'

Mr Zoat said:
the sword and attached the sheath to his equipment harness.

'attaches'

Mr Zoat said:
soldier with gold striped on his armour

'stripes'

Mr Zoat said:
Haven't you heard, commander? The gods are dead."

Well he's either telling the truth and they died, which would explain why Paul can't contact them, or they're still alive but loosing the fight.

Ciber · Oct 15, 2021

Just finished another re-read.
Feels like it's been awhile since Paul used old classics like the Pithing Needle.

Chojin Patriarch · Oct 15, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
11th September 2012
20:38 GMT

Athyns and I both head towards the forward edge of the defenders' position.

"Sorry to spring this on you." I take the sword out of subspace and offer it to him. "But you might find this helpful."

Ah, good on you. He'll probably find it more useful than you will now, and even the odds a little. Assuming things come down to close melee. And given that they didn't simply bombard New Cronus from their ships in the first place... I'd say the Ascendants want to get up close and personal.

"A war-prize?"

"Their technology. The gods told me that you are a descendent of Rhea yourself, so you should be able to use it."

Indeed. Though I don't doubt it'll take him a moment to work out how to empower it.

"I… Had suspected, but-."

The soldiers at the edge of our position open fire. Athyns ducks slightly, then takes the sword and hefts it.

He's a pragmatic fellow, he'll use any advantage he can get...

"If it helps with their damnable personal shields then I will take it."

"Good show."

I take it that's been frustrating him thus far. But with any luck he won't need to use it.

I shoot into the air, immediately drawing fire from the attackers' advanced party. Nothing particularly troubling. They all seem to be equipped as light infantry, and their weapons have nothing like the power needed to meaningfully damage my shields. I generate a draconic claw construct and send it downwards, grabbing the closest and pulling him into the air. He struggles for a moment, then prepares for death.

Admirable.

I can imagine him pausing as OL watches with amusement, then opens one eye and asks, "Um... Why aren't I dead yet?"

"Hello. I'd like to arrange a parlay. Who do I need to speak to in order to do that."

"There will be no parlay with the servants of the parasites!"

Ah, your first Error: OL isn't on New Cronus' side, officially. When someone busts in and starts shooting at the people you're talking to, you don't stand there saying "I'm not with them, thanks." You duck and shoot back.

"Now, are you informing me of policy there, or are you just talking me down? Has Sparta ordered no parlay with anyone?"

He hesitates.

To be fair, I can see him not knowing, actually. If he's low rank, he's probably had the old mushroom treatment like the rest of the lads....

"No, the-. The false gods are condemned, but she-. She has not made any decree on the fate of their servants."

"Then, surely, from your point of view… Is it not reasonable to grant pardon to the slaves of the false gods, who serve them because they know no other life?"

Ah, OL. Only you could use a philosophic discussion as an opener for peace talks, in the middle of a firefight.

"I-. Who are you?"

"I am the Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps. Not one of the false gods you're here to fight, though that's sort of happened anyway. If you could send a message to your commanding officer?"

...I mean, you're not not looking like a god right now, flying above and holding him in a grand grasp...

"The false gods still stand! Their soldiers still fight!"

"If you don't negotiate with them, they'll be force to fight to the last. They will kill more of your side than they would otherwise. I don't see how that's advantageous."

And what good soldier doesn't want to avoid them or their mates dying?

I smile broadly.

"Would you please explain it to me?"

"I… I don't think that they would surrender…"

Not if you don't ask, certainly.

"You have the authority to make that determination?"

"No! But-. Ah, I can.. contact my squad leader?"

Ah, progress! Show a bit of spine, though. Just because he's holding you by the scruff of your neck doesn't mean you can't be firm.

"Why are you asking my permission? I'm your enemy."

He reaches around the construct talons and taps his neck. "Primus. One of the fa-. Um, defenders, is requesting a parlay. Is there-?"

Good to see the comms disruption isn't applying to them. Makes it much easier than going flying looking for said Primus.

He pauses, and I don't listen in to the other half of the conversation.

"No, they're still resisting." I glance down. The scouting party is fanning out to form a containment perimeter, but not advancing. I'm not sure that Athyns' party could attack. "Because… Most of them are Karrakanian. If they hear the truth of the Ascendants-. Ah, of course, but are there… No conditions..? Yes, but I'm uninjured and he makes… A good point. We are all Rhea's people, and this is-."

That is a good point. Most of the Titan's army is Karrakanian, isn't it? except where it's been supplemented by Minosyssines (Minosyssi? Argh, the nomenclature...) Depending on how long the trip from Karrakan took, some of the older ones would still remember the old days? Assuming it took years to get here...

There's a longer pause.

"Thank you, Primus." He looks directly at me. "My Primus will speak with you and the leader of the-. The soldiers below us. Just the two of you."

Necessitating a show of trust on their part. Not that I doubt OL couldn't carve his way out of the enemy positions...

"Can your Primus order a wider ceasefire?"

"No, but he can take you to an Ascendant who can, if he thinks that it is worthwhile."

Now that's going to take a much higher Diplomacy check Difficulty Class... Let's hope OL can diplomance his way through it...

"Can't say fairer than that. And in the meanwhile?"

"Our soldiers will not attack if yours do the same, and will not advance further if yours do not retreat."

So, stand around, hurry up and wait, no shooting? Sounds good. Smoke if you got them!

"Accepted."

I descend at speed, swapping the construct claw for a simple tether. Athyns readies his sword and two other defenders point their guns at us as I return to ground level.

Thankfully OL's shields are tough enough to tank their shots, if someone has a twitchy trigger finger. Wouldn't do to get the grunt shot...

"Good news; they've agreed to parlay."

My prisoner stares at Athyns' face in clear shock. Athyns merely frowns back.

Recognising an Ascendant fighting for the enemy, no doubt. I'll bet that's a shock, all right.

"And that is good?"

"While these things can't always be settled through reasoned debate, one of the most important rules of warfare where I'm from is that both sides should openly state what they're trying to achieve. Aside from anything else, it encourages seeing the people you're killing as people, and not as some faceless manifestation of an abstract principle. Also."

Yeah, no simply marching across a border without a proper Cassus Belli. That sort of thing went out centuries ago.

I take a couple of purple healing ray devices out of subspace and thrust them at the soldiers acting as medical orderlies.

"Universal healing rays. Patch your soldiers up."

Heh. That would put the defenders at quite the advantage, since I doubt any of Sparta's Ascendants are gods of healing.

My 'prisoner' looks shocked. "That-."

"Is a technology that I will be happy to share upon the cessation of hostilities, but I am on the opposing side at the moment."

A helpful carrot there.

"It's… Yes. I can.. lead you to my Primus. You'll need to stow your weapons."

I dismiss my construct guns, while Athyns awkwardly holds the sword-.

Ah, right. The other guy didn't have a scabbard, did he?

I fabricate him a sheath and pass it over, and he sheathes the sword and attached the sheath to his equipment harness.

"Adequate?"

As long as it's not the naughty kind of 'sheathing'...

He points to the tether and I remove that as well. Then he nods. "This way."

We follow up out of the area Athyns' soldiers are hunkering down in, out into an area where the attackers' scouts have a clear view of us. No shots, though they peer out only cautiously, checking that their colleague is alive and well. One nods and waves us onwards before getting back into full cover.

Though I suspect Athyns is feeling a little exposed. OL might be able to tank their shots, but...

"I don't suppose that you took armour as a prize as well?"

"Sorry. I feel a little off about stripping corpses. I mean, if you try and kill me with something then you've got no right to complain if I keep it, but taking someone's clothes seems unsavoury."

Plus, I doubt either corpse's armour was in the best shape, given the force needed to kill them. Something many adventurers forget about when they're looting everything not nailed down (and rummaging for prybars for the things that are.)

We're led through sensor domes and shield generators and past the bodies of the fallen. Gradually we begin seeing more of the attackers' soldiers. No vehicles of Ascendants, but they're clearly mustering. A few have wounds or other battle damage, but the advantage of advancing is that you can gather your wounded somewhere safe.

A soldier with gold striped on his armour is giving orders to a few without, but looks around as we approach. He takes a moment to look us over, then dismisses our escort with a gesture.

Ah, good sensible rank markings. No golden cuirasses or big, flashy crests here, eh?

"I am the Primus of this cohort. What are you?"

"I am Athyns, commander of the New Cronus garrison."

Which I suspect outranks the Primus just a bit. But it's not like high-ranked officers have never had to make peace with low ranks before...

"Is that high?"

"I report directly to the gods."

If they weren't so honourable about these things, I suspect a meaner man would be chuckling to himself evilly... Imagine the bounty on such a person.

The Primus snorts contemptuously.

"Haven't you heard, commander? The gods are dead."

...Not literally, I hope. I doubt the Titans went down that easily.

Ah, reasonable discourse and polite discussion. The best way to break up an armed scuffle. It's a lot easier when you've got the biggest guns with which to enforce a cease-fire, though, which OL does. It'll be interesting to hear what the Primus means by that last statement, though. Let's hope the Titans aren't feeling desperate. Especially Coeus...

Mr Zoat · Oct 15, 2021

Darko said:
'forced'
'attaches'
'stripes'

Thank you, corrected.

Darko · Oct 15, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
And given that they didn't simply bombard New Cronus from their ships in the first place... I'd say the Ascendants want to get up close and personal.

Well they may share something else in common with New Gods.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I mean, you're not not looking like a god right now, flying above and holding him in a grand grasp...

Plus he may still have some New God energy in him and this guy can sense it, probably due to being surrounded by the Ascendant.

Chojin Patriarch said:
...Not literally, I hope. I doubt the Titans went down that easily

They are outnumbered and in their avatars they would be weaker than they would be in full power, so Sparta and the other Ascendant may have been able to kill them.

Doccer · Oct 15, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
The Primus snorts contemptuously.

"Haven't you heard, commander? The gods are dead."

Hades is gonna stop letting OL take his daughter out.

AidanMorgan · Oct 15, 2021

I really hope Melinoë isn't included in that statement or Paul is in some deep shit.

Coda · Oct 15, 2021

Maybe he's just Nietzschean.

crazygrox · Oct 15, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"Well, short version, a while ago I found myself in your position. I talked to some wizards, and after a while we managed to get it fixed. Since I couldn't grow a soul normally, we used a little magic to make me grow one artificially. I'm not exactly sure how it would work for you, but we can talk to some people and see what we can come up with."

Doing something of a reread, now I'm rethinking this in light of more recent chapters revealing Paul's tattoos are making him into something equivalent to a new god(Avatar off the Ophidian), and wondering whether Earl Dukeston has much chance of ending up as Avatar of this god of technology, he already has technology control abilities, and his soul was created using a fetish of the god of technology's power.

Also, this scene got me thinking about the confrontation with Boss Smiley some more:

Mr Zoat said:
When If?

"Nearly. Your perception of her death set you on this path."

And now I have his attention.

"What do you mean?"

"If she died and you didn't know about it, your behaviour would be unaltered. If she was replaced by a gynoid programmed to mimic her, or a shapeshifter, your behaviour would be unaltered. On the other hand, if you believed that she died…"

It sort of seemed like Boss Smiley is actually an impressive master planner from that whole confrontation, aside from being able to hijack a bunch of saints' energy in the first place, the important thing is how he went about that whole confrontation, with a series of goals of increasing difficulty and decreasing likeliness of success, starting with a possible goal of ill-disposing the religious community towards OL, then the deaths of those associates driving the technological revolution(later reversed by resurrection) then the destruction of the Sword of the Fallen(apparently successful, but probably reversible by a method I've just come up with, but also removing one of the only things we're sure could kill Smiley), then putting OL in a disadvantageous position to try to offer a series of deals.

So basically I've been assuming that the destruction of the sword was planned, and have been wondering why Grayven hasn't been seeing more pushback.

But also I've been thinking that Smiley is probably why every parallel version of Sivana except for the theoretical physicist ended up a supervillain. Because only the one that didn't produce practical applications wasn't a threat to the balance of power, and it wouldn't be that difficult to convince people to not invest in his tech, and to convince Sivana himself to take revenge and become a supervillain.

Anyway, getting to how time travel is related to Smiley, I suspect that there will be a future anti-smiley alliance, and Sivana will be critical, because he could use a time machine to go back and pick up the Sword of the Fallen from before the Angels would have destroyed it. I know that the whole 'perception of a series of events in time leading to the present to avoid paradox' thing is unnecessary since OL changed how time works, but by the same token it probably wouldn't be that hard to fake the sword to a casual analysis followed by destruction, just in case for some reason they want to avoid creating a noticeably distinct hypertime branch.

Darko · Oct 15, 2021

crazygrox said:
Doing something of a reread, now I'm rethinking this in light of more recent chapters revealing Paul's tattoos are making him into something equivalent to a new god(Avatar off the Ophidian), and wondering whether Earl Dukeston has much chance of ending up as Avatar of this god of technology, he already has technology control abilities, and his soul was created using a fetish of the god of technology's power.

Also, this scene got me thinking about the confrontation with Boss Smiley some more:

It sort of seemed like Boss Smiley is actually an impressive master planner from that whole confrontation, aside from being able to hijack a bunch of saints' energy in the first place, the important thing is how he went about that whole confrontation, with a series of goals of increasing difficulty and decreasing likeliness of success, starting with a possible goal of ill-disposing the religious community towards OL, then the deaths of those associates driving the technological revolution(later reversed by resurrection) then the destruction of the Sword of the Fallen(apparently successful, but probably reversible by a method I've just come up with, but also removing one of the only things we're sure could kill Smiley), then putting OL in a disadvantageous position to try to offer a series of deals.

So basically I've been assuming that the destruction of the sword was planned, and have been wondering why Grayven hasn't been seeing more pushback.

But also I've been thinking that Smiley is probably why every parallel version of Sivana except for the theoretical physicist ended up a supervillain. Because only the one that didn't produce practical applications wasn't a threat to the balance of power, and it wouldn't be that difficult to convince people to not invest in his tech, and to convince Sivana himself to take revenge and become a supervillain.

Anyway, getting to how time travel is related to Smiley, I suspect that there will be a future anti-smiley alliance, and Sivana will be critical, because he could use a time machine to go back and pick up the Sword of the Fallen from before the Angels would have destroyed it. I know that the whole 'perception of a series of events in time leading to the present to avoid paradox' thing is unnecessary since OL changed how time works, but by the same token it probably wouldn't be that hard to fake the sword to a casual analysis followed by destruction, just in case for some reason they want to avoid creating a noticeably distinct hypertime branch.

I don't think Smiley planned the destruction of the Sword.

At least not in the way it happened, but it could be possible.

As for why renegade hasn't been confronted with Smiley, well that could be because Smiley is more cautious around him.

If he's aware of Apokalips then he may not want to have a fight with someone from there, at least not without extensive preparation.

Smiley could think that if he got in renegades way then he'd also have to deal with Darkseid, which would be extremely dangerous.

And that theory about Sivana could prove to be true.

Georgie is researching why advanced tech isn't spread more and she may discover Smiley, so that could be a way her the Sivana family to get involved.

Stsword · Oct 15, 2021

Darko said:
They are outnumbered and in their avatars they would be weaker than they would be in full power, so Sparta and the other Ascendant may have been able to kill them.

Theoretically, sure.

But I doubt it. As the soldier stated, they are here to kill the gods, they have no orders about their followers.

So if they finished their mission, why are they still fighting instead of trying to leave?

Mission Accomplished, after all.

Smartkittykhan · Oct 15, 2021

Ciber said:
Just finished another re-read.
Feels like it's been awhile since Paul used old classics like the Pithing Needle.

Going to be honest, I don't remember what that is.

Ngamer11 · Oct 16, 2021

Smartkittykhan said:
Going to be honest, I don't remember what that is.

It's a construct that creates a needle that, when inserted into a human's body, will render them mostly unable to move. Effectiveness against non-humans or altered humans may vary.

Darko · Oct 16, 2021

Stsword said:
Theoretically, sure.

But I doubt it. As the soldier stated, they are here to kill the gods, they have no orders about their followers.

So if they finished their mission, why are they still fighting instead of trying to leave?

Mission Accomplished, after all.

Because either the followers are still fighting them or Sparta's followers just want to keep fighting and killing to sate their bloodlust.

Prince Charon · Oct 16, 2021

Darko said:
Because either the followers are still fighting them or Sparta's followers just want to keep fighting and killing to sate their bloodlust.

Alternatively, the Primus could be lying. Not saying he necessarily is, just that it's clearly an option.

Darko · Oct 16, 2021

Prince Charon said:
Alternatively, the Primus could be lying. Not saying he necessarily is, just that it's clearly an option.

True.

Or it could be that some of them are still alive and fighting, but losing to the point that they're unlikely to live much longer, so the Primus considers them dead already.

Prince Charon · Oct 16, 2021

Darko said:
True.

Or it could be that some of them are still alive and fighting, but losing to the point that they're unlikely to live much longer, so the Primus considers them dead already.

Yes. Also, the Primus could have been lied to by someone else (e.g. Sparta).

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