With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Korfayron]

I hope OL gives them a report on what their weaknesses are and how to cover them most effectively.

 

[Inbetweenaction]

... I mean, he's not wrong.

So, Paul's powerful enough that he can trivially take down the Justice League, but it's not possible for him to actually wrap up the Crime Syndicate without collateral damage? He just doesn't give a fuck about this world, so he can't be arsed to power up enough to deal with it?

I'm still having difficulty with why Paul's on the Crime Syndicate's side here. The kind of mindset he wants the heroes to adopt seems like the same kind of mindset that's okay with Nabu (because shutting him down is a messy complicated situation that might cause collateral damage), and we know how he felt about that... or maybe that was just because it was someone he knew, and his righteous rage was just a front?

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The only reason he could take them down was that he has studied them extensively and has stolen their enemies most effective weapons against them ages ago. He didn't Ower power them, he batmanened them. Them being powerful and well known was why he could take them. Otherwise, it would take a lot of work for each one to batman them into submission.

Doing the same for the management would take a lot of time. And he probably could not get that time without tipping them of, especially the b and c listers he has little to no idea what they can do, let alone the difference in this universe.

And this isn't his world. And with the orange ring, That matters hugely, he can't go full power since he doesn't care enough about this America, and is further depowered by there being a peaceful ish sulotion and evil committed on both sides. If slade backed down from issuing ultimatums and gauls for life for any association (from what we where told about the illegal Mexican imitation handling even minor posseuon of weed would be a life without parole if you are even slightly suspected of having bought from a management dealer ) he might have tried to clean the place up, but not now.

 

[Vaermina]

The idea of alternate universe kryptonite not effecting it's non native kryptonians does have comic book history going for it.

Spoiler: Ye Old Comic

In this early DC comic, superman crosses the multiverse, and ends up using the local kryptonite to kill several resident kryptonians, while he is immune to it as its not from his universes krypton.

Another issue came up during the battle with Superboy-Prime, where Kal-El and Kal-L, drag Prime to the Ro system. Prime is immune to the local radiation....so they tackle him through the star itself, which being a Red Sun, does have an effect of removing his powers, because THAT fact was common to all 3.

I'm sure it's come up a number of times during the continuity battles later on with Power Girl being a non native kryptonian after the crisis, but I'd rather not dive into that bit of insanity.

So...kryptonite radiation and vulnerability can differ from universe to universe. The mechanics and power levels of kryptonians change universe to universe.

The closest thing we have for a comparison would be Gravyen Vs Kara In-ze when he visited the Justice Lords universe. The Lords and JLU universes are....Close? In the grand scheme of things. The power Nullifier that Luthor cooks up works on the Lords, and may well have worked on the League, which is why he had to hand it over as part of his deal. However That thing worked, it was shared between those universes, so, as a guess I'd say Kryptonite would likely be identical.

Gravyen used a yellow ring to synthesize Green Kryptonite to take down Kara in the Lord's universe and later made Gold to deal with Justice Lord Superman possibly regaining his powers. Now while he did use a local to that universe Ring, IIRC he did that from Memory of His world's Kryptonite structures and Father Box. And it worked on both targets.

However he also noticed several physical differences in the Lord's universe, Kryptonian 'stealth' heat vision, and shapes of boom tubes stand out. So physical laws themselves seemed different, but still functional.

Gravyen-16's kryptonite working on the Lords earlier on makes Paul-16's kryptonite working on the League a fairly easy sell.

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The argument you just gave basically amounts to "Zoat changed the rules so his characters could do something that would allow them to win.".

Which is the general problem here.

Because changing the rules specifically so your special insert character can win when said character otherwise shouldn't, is bad writing.

 

[Buggy123]

The argument you just gave basically amounts to "Zoat changed the rules so his characters could do something that would allow them to win.".

Which is the general problem here.

Because changing the rules specifically so your special insert character can win when said character otherwise shouldn't, is bad writing.

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I don't really agree with you here, but if we're dismissing fiction on the basis of bad writing, I nominate the entire DC franchise for immediate incineration.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Ugh, this is probably just another enlightenment alien worldview thing that keeps bugging me, but would it really be so bad to attempt to talk things out before completely dismantling them.

Now he will just look like a villain that is only nice when he holds all the cards...


"So... why did you beat us up, take away our powers, and cut off body parts?"

"You might not have listened to me if I tried talking. But now that I have you at my mercy you'll have no choice but to listen and agree to my perfectly reasonable ideas and plans!"

"Why didn't you start with that then?"

Looks confused "... because you might have said no. Please try to keep up."

All sighing "Yep, supervillain."



This. This is what was bugging me. He is actively shutting down other people's choices and plans because they aren't what he wants.

If he wants to be a complete authoritarian where he is in control, that would be fine, interesting story direction.

But it feels like he is trying to have it both ways. He has to be in charge and everyone has to do things his way because everyone else would be wrong and his way is the right way.

I'm probably just depressed at the anti-climax but it keeps feeling like people only matter to ol if he decides they matter, otherwise he just runs right over them because they might inconvenience him.

I'm definitely not at "ol is mary-sue. Ruined forever!" levels, more like "oh. That was disappointing."

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Except the JL turning up here and being spotted or 'Not listening' to Paul might result in a Civil war with hundreds of millions dead across America or billions dead across the world if the syndicate has proper WMD's in its hands. Beat up a justice league to explain yourself or risk global destruction with billions dead? not really a supervillain choice is it?

Hell the Marvel secret wars 2015 had a group of heroes condemn billions of lives to death to save their own world destroying at least three earths and they're still 'Heroes' (See when Namor the submariner blew up another earth to stop it crashing into his and when the rest of them built world ending devices) although many of them were disgusted with their actions.

No, I haven't, it's quite literally canon to the DC Multiverse that each Earth's kryptonite only effects Kryptonians from their own universe.

Heck it's even a fricken plot point in the "Crisis on Two Earths" movie.

So I will ask one last time.

Where did Paul get the exact radiation Wavelength for Earth 12 Kryptonite?

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The greatly beloved by Zoat New 52 in forever evil Ultraman absorbs kryptonite and the radiation affects it in the same way it did on his own parallel demonstrating that some kryptonite's can have the same effects on Kryptonians from different worlds.

 

[RichardWhereat]

Now he will just look like a villain that is only nice when he holds all the cards...
...
This. This is what was bugging me. He is actively shutting down other people's choices and plans because they aren't what he wants.

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Yes. He's a Supervillain. He's the best supervillain; one with great press, alliances with the good guys, and both power and resources to back up his plans, that are put in motion legally. For the most part.

And really, isn't that what we all want to be?

 

[Chaoswind]

I'm probably just depressed at the anti-climax but it keeps feeling like people only matter to ol if he decides they matter, otherwise he just runs right over them because they might inconvenience him.

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Yes, this has been a thing for a very long while do try to keep up.

Paul is orange, his worldview is entirely based on the perspective of what he wants, he can do everything in his power to help people if he is invested on them and completely run them over if they interfere...

Paul wanted to be in the side of the heroes and they blew him off after he took a risk to help them first and they took his investment of his UNIQUE star sapphire and demonstrated it wasn't worth anything to them; as Paulophidian would say, the investment was a complete NET LOST and he is mad he gave his shit away and it wasn't worth anything to the heroes. If they want Paul to be Neutral and leave them do what THEY want then THE VERY LEAST they need to do is return HIS property.

 

[david]

I really don't understand why anyone expected something different here. We're talking about the character we've been reading about for the last...I don't even know how many pages, ambushing one of the weakest Justice Leagues. This is like a Batman vs Zod fight except Batman doesn't know about kryptonians. Lots of people would be angry about Batman being punted over the horizon but rationally there would be no other outcome.

Paul can't beat the YJ Justice league, but despite the incredible writing and stories, a kids cartoon from the 90's is going to be a joke when it comes to combat feats. I swear, some of the people here would be calling "Mary Sue" if Paul managed to beat the Super Friends

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Um, doesn't "Grayven's bullshit" stem directly from Batman tasking Grayven with infiltrating the Light and turning them to more productive ends and means?

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Given that Grayven's bullshit is comprised of his myriad of lies about who and what he is. I'd say no.

Wasn't there something about speedsters forgetting things they've read in this universe?
I can't find it now, but I remember a scene with Wally reading a book at superspeed.

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Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Bart Allen for instance remembers everything he reads in such a manner. Superman too, silver age at least, I haven't seen him do it as much in the modern era as he is less of a science hero than he used to be.

 

[Bigking321]

Paul wanted to be in the side of the heroes and they blew him off after he took a risk to help them first and they took his investment of his UNIQUE star sapphire and demonstrated it wasn't worth anything to them; as Paulophidian would say, the investment was a complete NET LOST and he is mad he gave his shit away and it wasn't worth anything to the heroes. If they want Paul to be Neutral and leave them do what THEY want then THE VERY LEAST they need to do is return HIS property.

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That's fine in all, but my main issue is his treatment of the Justice League from 12 that, as far as I know, had nothing to do with the people you're talking about and literally just appeared in the universe.

Unless I missed something about them being part of negotiations or the in universe heros being in contact with them?

 

[Buggy123]

Which doesn't matter because the Earth 12 League is canonically a lot more powerful then their Earth 16 counterparts.


No, I haven't, it's quite literally canon to the DC Multiverse that each Earth's kryptonite only effects Kryptonians from their own universe.

Heck it's even a fricken plot point in the "Crisis on Two Earths" movie.

So I will ask one last time.

Where did Paul get the exact radiation Wavelength for Earth 12 Kryptonite?

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Okay, Someguy Somewhere has raised a good point, it is relatively common DC canon that this is true.

So fine, I will say it:

Zoat changed things, I was wrong.

However, I don't admit defeat. It wasn't changed here, specifically for this event. As Someguy Somewhere also pointed out, Grayven used non-local kryptonite in the Justice Lords universe, quite a while ago.

And put simply, this is still a relatively mild change. So a story element from DC canon got changed, ultimately to the main character's advantage? Congratulations, Zoat is now in the same league as basically every DC writer to ever live.

The people who win is who the writer says wins, the rules are made up, and the points don't matter. At least things are a bit less mind-numbingly stupid compared to most DC fiction.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

That's fine in all, but my main issue is his treatment of the Justice League from 12 that, as far as I know, had nothing to do with the people you're talking about and literally just appeared in the universe.

Unless I missed something about them being part of negotiations or the in universe heros being in contact with them?

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If the rest of the new management saw them or they met it could start a civil war with hundreds of millions if not billions dead as every WMD and every super-powered villain goes postal as their last chance of getting out alive goes kaput. a cornered rat will bite you a cornered superpowered rat with WMD's will blow up the bloody world.

EDIT FOR CLEANING:

Given that Grayven's bullshit is comprised of his myriad of lies about who and what he is. I'd say no.

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Pretty sure he started infiltrating the light before the Forever people called him Grayven

 

[Bigking321]

If the rest of the new management saw them or they met it could start a civil war with hundreds of millions if not billions dead as every WMD and every super-powered villain goes postal as their last chance of getting out alive goes kaput. a cornered rat will bite you a cornered superpowered rat with WMD's will blow up the bloody world.

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I find "the people I'm working with are so unstable they might destroy the world if I take the time to talk to you" to be a flimsy excuse.

I don't doubt that is probably what the logic is but if they are so crazy the mere sight of the Justice League will send them into a world ending panic, well maybe ol is on the wrong side of the argument.

 

[Mr Zoat]

That's fine in all, but my main issue is his treatment of the Justice League from 12 that, as far as I know, had nothing to do with the people you're talking about and literally just appeared in the universe.

Unless I missed something about them being part of negotiations or the in universe heros being in contact with them?

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The SI strong suspected that Talon would be calling back the Justice League who aided in the original decapitation. Thus, he knew they would be strongly likely to side with President Wilson, and probably weren't stopping off in a Syndicate base to hear the other fellow's point of view. Observe that he wasn't trying to cause lasting harm and stopped as soon as they were incapacitated.

If it had turned out they were a different Justice League group, he would have apologised at once.

With regards to kryptonite, I am aware that in the comics parallel universe kryptonite does literally nothing. However, in Crisis on Two Earths, Lex Luthor specifically says that he got his blue kryptonite from a parallel universe and it works on Ultraman just fine. My explanation is that kryptonians from parallel universes are biologically similar to one another but not identical, and as such respond slightly differently to radiation wavelengths. 12 and 16 are close enough that both green and gold work fine on both, while they would have a different effect than intended on a -14 kryptonian like Ultraman.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

I find "the people I'm working with are so unstable they might destroy the world if I take the time to talk to you" to be a flimsy excuse.

I don't doubt that is probably what the logic is but if they are so crazy the mere sight of the Justice League will send them into a world ending panic, well maybe ol is on the wrong side of the argument.

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No, no they see the justice league and panic, the justice league being righteous face punchers attack and best case scenario lose and are now prisoners of the syndicate (not a good end) or worst and more likely case scenario win and hand them over to the local police where everyone who didn't escape is killed leading to every member of the syndicate who was willing to talk either dead or discredited and things spiralling out of control from there.

 

[Sad Machine]

Can we go back to Grayven soon. The more focus there is on Paul the more I hate him. And given that he is the author that doesn't say good things about him imo.


Edit: Or least have him face a Non-nerfed justice league from the comics. That would kick his teeth in real quick and might actually give him some character growth. Cause right now I can tell you/he has a swelled head that moons could orbit.

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What crackpipe have you been smoking? He loses way more fights than the MOST POWERFUL ORANGE LANTERN is supposed to and always has to call a different hero to help him out finally we get a showing of how strong he is and your immediate reaction is "hes got a big head now".

You can start here.

https://www.dcuniverse.com/videos/batman-the-animated-series/65/season-1?page=1

From there go to Superman the Animated Series, then Justice League, then Justice League Unlimited, then Static Shock, then Zeta Project, then Batman Beyond, then finally the movies.


The prepared Thanagarians had been studying everything about those particular versions of the Justice League for years.

Simple question here, and if you can satisfactorily answer it without going "Zoat changed things" you will win internet points.

Where did Paul get the exact radiation Wavelength for Earth 12 Kryptonite? Because it's canon to the multiverse that every universe's Kryptonite has a different radiation wavelength and only effects Kryptonians from the universe it was created in.

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I love how your like "yeah a bunch of cronks with maces studied the JL and beat them" BuT nOT PaUuUULlL hE dOEsNt KnOwWW aBOuT JLLLL HEs oNlY A bIG DuM dUM MAAAARRRRYYYYYYY SSSSUUUUUEEEEE!!!!!

 

[Baladar]

My only complaint is that the fight text is hard to read.

For all the people saying it's a wankfest, Paul knows all their weaknesses, has had the ability to put multiple constructs and subspaced equipment into the field at a time, and has had the ability to micro control of those things by fractions of seconds since almost the very beginning. Him stomping an unprepared JL is as expected as a 20th level wizard, with the ability to change prepared spells on the fly, stomping.....anything really.

This also leads to the part we were really looking forward to, Paul having a friendly conversation with the justice league of the animated universe. I really hope he just asked Diana to toss him the end of her lasso, so they know he's telling the truth.

Seriously Zoat,This is been the highlight of my this is been the highlight of my entire last two weeks.

(SOs having mysteriously crippling gastro problems is not fun)

 

[Senevri]

So cross-universe kryptonite works here?

 

[Ngamer11]

So cross-universe kryptonite works here?

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Only if the universes are close enough in similarity. Otherwise, its effects will change and be more random.

 

[Inbetweenaction]

What crackpipe have you been smoking? He loses way more fights than the MOST POWERFUL ORANGE LANTERN is supposed to and always has to call a different hero to help him out finally we get a showing of how strong he is and your immediate reaction is "hes got a big head now".

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He isn't just the most powerful orange lantern. He also has the hobby of stacking as many other heroes and villains powers as he can get his greedy fingers on.

By now, the justice league faced of with the powers of several Mr Frezze in ambush , several crusher creeal on velocity (supersonic crusher rounds) , orange illustres, idol and racket, hawkman, a budged speedster (mental only) count vertigo, some dude in one of the most advanced power armor in the galaxy, anti psyker wards and every single one of them armed with cryptonite and with batman level Intel on how they fight and react.

 

[Jirachi]

Also, the kryptonite question is kind of moot becuase he could always just use 'red sun lasers' which seem to be a constant across universes, irregardless of some odder continuity details.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

That would kick his teeth in real quick and might actually give him some character growth.

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Again with this shit. I fail to see how losing a fight is going to promote "growth".

Plus we already have WoZ that all that would accomplish is OL devoting time to being able to counter whatever he lost to.

Finally, OL was shut down and murdered by the Silver city, and other then taking Boss Smiley's words to heart, OL remains the same.

You can't get any more "teeth kicked in" than being KILLED.

Pretty sure he started infiltrating the light before the Forever people called him Grayven

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Probably true, but being in the Light, or just the Light in general have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

 

[Senevri]

That brings up one question: Where's Batman?

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At home, washing his tights!

 

[Siskulous]

Well...That went about how I expected it to, but not how I'd hoped. While OL is pretty risk averse I'd hoped that he'd have talked first rather than taking them down instantly like I knew he could.

Also....He thinks Sai is bringing reinforcements? Is he always this slow on the uptake, or is he being unusually dull this time?

 

[Chaoswind]

Well...That went about how I expected it to, but not how I'd hoped. While OL is pretty risk averse I'd hoped that he'd have talked first rather than taking them down instantly like I knew he could.

Also....He thinks Sai is bringing reinforcements? Is he always this slow on the uptake, or is he being unusually dull this time?

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I don't think he expects the reinforments to be his... Far more likely its a Justice Underground strike team.

 

[protoss16]

Why wasn't there a renegade symbol in the update?

 

[PDV]

Why wasn't there a renegade symbol in the update?

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OK, this is a good point.

 

[Chaoswind]

Why wasn't there a renegade symbol in the update?

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Paul no longer deals with those most of the time, he is constantly and perfectly aware of what he wants and always wants the means.

Beating them extremely quickly and negotiating from a position of strength is far less risky than talking with them, its also why he wasted his star sapphire in the justice underground, he wanted a peaceful parlay and was willing to invest heavily in getting it. But instead he got a hostile parlay in with the other party demonstrated themselves to be little better than Zealous nutjobs, thus his investment was a huge net lost.

Always look at Paul through the glass of what he wants.

Right now he is invested in getting a cease-fire as a prelude to peaceful negotiations.

He wants to go home (only ones that can do that easily are the Syndicate) by dinner or at the very least as soon as possible.


Anything that gets in the way of those goals is going to get stomped.


He wasn't on the side of the Syndicate and could have been flipped easily by the heroes if they hadn't fucked up during the parlay he arranged at a personal cost of both rep and equipment (NET LOST ONE STAR SAPPHIRE), while they told him both him and Zatanna would be lucky to survive the coming onslaught of self-righteousness.

Right now Paul is showing a lot of restraint.

 

[Pinklestia]

Really hope they can get over what Paul just did and work together properly.

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They did get over when an alternate Batman took then down... but that was because Justice Lord Batman betrayed his team.

"Picture this, a group of heroes go into a journey to defeat an evil wizard and they kill it. Only those heroes then disappear and it turns out the evil wizard had kids, powerful kids, and without the heroes around... their fight killed the whole Kingdom. I am trying to avoid that."

 

[Maxx Crowley]

I did get a kick out of this update standing as a shinning example of something I've said before.

When OL faces villains, they tens to tank everything he throws their way, often requiring calling in just the right character for help.

When OL faces heroes, he tends to run right over them.