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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Raquel is probably going to be bad for the attempt to reform Overgirl. By which I mean she's going to be the exact kind of confrontational that would make someone like Overgirl dig in her heels and defend her Nazi beliefs all the harder.

Or maybe I'm just assuming the worst because Raquel tends to be annoying.

Also find it a little amusing that the Thule Society is always so prominent in fiction involving the Nazis. Hitler never liked them, or really any occult groups, and marginalized them to the point they were disbanded before the Nazis ever took power. (Disbanded around 1925.)

I would have figured it'd still have been an SS facility. Just with any actual magicians from the defunct Thule Society absorbed into it. But I guess when you're dealing with actual magic the Thule Society might actually manage to continue existing.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

The ring could just translate it.

No. As he said, she's going to be working with them for a little while. She isn't joining up just yet.
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Ah, sorry, misswrote.

Darko said:
The League and the Team let Canis join them.
He worked for a person whose empire makes nazi Germany and the shit they did look saintly by comparison.
Canis has burned cities and killed innocent people and he probably still doesn't see anything wrong with that and still admires the person who sent the god of assassin's to kill him.

Overgirl on the other hand has been involved in traditional superheroic activities and the people she killed were most likely responsible for civilian deaths.
She is also having doubts about her way of life and may be able to change, Canis still reveres Darkseid.

OL has recruited Kalmin, who may be responsible for multiple genocides and other crimes against sapient life and when he trained those lanterns when he went back to Maltus he saw that one of them invaded peaceful civilizations because he was disgusted by their way of life.

He also works with demons and is known for his efforts to try to rehabilitate people.
People may react negatively to Angelika because they simply hate nazis, even though she hasn't commited any of the atrocities they did and is having doubts.
The most positive emotion they, even Raquel to an extent, could have for her would be pity seeing as she has never been shown another way to live.

Not relative to the above but Zoat what would a renegade version of the SI be like in the avenger and MCU universe?
Would he try to say that he is Thane and deal with T hanos like Renegade Paul is dealing with Darkseid?
And will the paragon gain any other superpowers, aside from the empathy and emotional control he has with enlightement, any time in your story?
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Canis is so far into Blue and Orange Morality that it's very easy to forget his origins and past actions, plus his particular approach isn't quite as identifiably evil and outright incorrect as Nazism.
 
Darko said:
Canis has burned cities and killed innocent people and he probably still doesn't see anything wrong with that and still admires the person who sent the god of assassin's to kill him.
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Canis has never burned a city. Burning a city is grunt work and he is an artist and an officer.

He oversees the burning of cities.
Not relative to the above but Zoat what would a renegade version of the SI be like in the avenger and MCU universe?

Would he try to say that he is Thane and deal with Thanos like Renegade Paul is dealing with Darkseid?
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Probably something like this. Unfortunately I know a good deal less about the wider Marvel universe than I do about DC and so would struggle to leverage quite as well.
And will the paragon gain any other superpowers, aside from the empathy and emotional control he has with enlightenment, any time in your story?
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Yes.
Maxx Crowley said:
I rather expected her to stick around and learn the magic of friendship or what have you.
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I don't have any plans for the SI to visit Equestria again. And... Angelika has friends.
 
Darko said:
How is Anti green powering his ring now?
Is he still taking energy from green lanterns or something else, like say using magic?
How is Baul charging his ring?
Still feeding on hope around him, or did John Constantine-14 build some magic device that can tap into the plane of hope and function like a lantern?
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Didn't anti green get eaten by a red portal just a few updates ago? I am pretty sure he got grabbed by the acme looking thing time trapper Paul and the Red queen used.

If that is related to how time trapper is feeding his universe energy then we can expect the anti green universe to be collapsing/collapsed to feed the Mandated universe.

Remember people these are the setup chapters for the incoming Crisis, heck I wouldn't be surprised if universe-10z isn't also getting burned for fuel atm and Overgirl will be left without a home to return to.
 
Overgirls portal situation may have been a pure accident.
And Time Trapper and Red Queen may be taking alternate versions of themselves to fix whatever is causing Time Trapper to canibalize universes.
 
Right sorry i forgot.
He is probably taking his alternate versions to help him stabilize his universe or to deal with something else.
 
thebishop8 said:
If she's actually sticking around longer than this episode, I'm sure Maxx will be thrilled.
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As rabid as Maxx has been about her, I'm actually pretty sure Raquel will be more upset about it. After all, Maxx is just reading about a distasteful fictional character. Raquel is actually going to have to deal with the bigot.

On the plus side, as ideologies go, Nazism is weak. A month working with the team and cut off from her fellow Nazis and she'll be having a crisis of faith, guaranteed. That could be accelerated if she gets a beatdown at the hands of a black or Jewish villain, though there aren't a whole lot of DC characters who both meet that criteria and are powerful enough to go toe to toe with her. Mostly because there aren't a whole lot of HUMAN DC characters that can go toe to toe with a Kryptonian. Maybe Father Lost if he got lucky. Or Painkiller. I could totally see Painkiller getting the better of her. So much the better if she's then saved by Raquel or Kaldur in a way that leaves her feeling indebted.

Mr Zoat said:
Canis has never burned a city. Burning a city is grunt work and he is an artist and an officer.

He oversees the burning of cities.
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Eh, the same could be said of Hitler...and I'm pretty sure it would fly with exactly no one.
 
I'm not really sure if you can call Nazism a weak ideology. An evil one, sure, but it seems just a little too persistent to be written off as weak.

And despite the catharsis factor, Overgirl getting her ass kicked by some black or jewish villain is probably the last thing someone interested in reforming her would want. It'd probably make her backslide from any progress she may have made. I mean, if I got my ass kicked by someone I already hated it'd just make me hate them more. A beating isn't the kind of thing that would make me think, "Maybe I was wrong to hate them."

You have to ask open ended questions and essentially leave a trail of breadcrumbs so they can come to the right conclusion themselves. Being angry and confrontational just makes them dig in.

I'm also not sure about that viruscomix link. Like, Nazi Germany rose and fell within a single generation. Overgirl is from a world where the Nazis triumphed and were free to indoctrinate people over multiple generations.

In a world where the Nazis won, Gertraud never would have had reason to really think about what the Nazis were actually doing, and there wouldn't have been a plaque dedicated to Sophie to give her some after the fact epiphany. There's a clear difference between when it was happening and when they lost and the Germans had their faces rubbed in it.

As they say, hindsight is always 20/20.
 
ForeverShogo said:
I'm not really sure if you can call Nazism a weak ideology. An evil one, sure, but it seems just a little too persistent to be written off as weak.

And despite the catharsis factor, Overgirl getting her ass kicked by some black or jewish villain is probably the last thing someone interested in reforming her would want. It'd probably make her backslide from any progress she may have made. I mean, if I got my ass kicked by someone I already hated it'd just make me hate them more. A beating isn't the kind of thing that would make me think, "Maybe I was wrong to hate them."

You have to ask open ended questions and essentially leave a trail of breadcrumbs so they can come to the right conclusion themselves. Being angry and confrontational just makes them dig in.

I'm also not sure about that viruscomix link. Like, Nazi Germany rose and fell within a single generation. Overgirl is from a world where the Nazis triumphed and were free to indoctrinate people over multiple generations.

In a world where the Nazis won, Gertraud never would have had reason to really think about what the Nazis were actually doing, and there wouldn't have been a plaque dedicated to Sophie to give her some after the fact epiphany. There's a clear difference between when it was happening and when they lost and the Germans had their faces rubbed in it.

As they say, hindsight is always 20/20.
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My point is that 'I was young, I was raised this way, I didn't question' really isn't an excuse when it comes to something as horrendously wrong as Nazism.
Facts are facts are facts, and to put it bluntly someone with even a fraction of Superman's sensory abilities doesn't even have the excuse of not being in a position to find out for herself the truth of things.
 
I mean, for the first time, I'm looking forward to a Raquel chewing out. Finally, a proper target.

It's why nazis are the baddies in so many video games. You can do anything to them and it's all good.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
It's why nazis are the baddies in so many video games. You can do anything to them and it's all good.
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Apart from treat them like human beings. That's just a no go apparently? :rolleyes:

Jokes aside I think seeing her character develop in the coming episodes will at the very least be intresting. Even if the level of apathy she has for groups of people is enough to make my skin crawl at points.
Mr Zoat said:
A fortunate escape for Lucky Hans
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That sounds like the perfect title for an amazing WWII movie. I'm thinking The Great Escape meets The Sound of Music with a smidge of Naked Gun.
 
w34v3r said:
Ok would it be too much to ask how she justifies the camps?
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Pretty much the same way a modern American justifies slavery and the treatment of native Americans?

I mean, most countries have some sort of dark past, where the usual response by modern citizens ranges from being ashamed about it to whitewashing it to literally defending it as being an unfortunate necessity at the time.

... that is, if they're forced to have a response. The honest actual response for an overwhelming majority of people living in a country that has a genocide in their past is simply not giving a fuck about it.
 
Galler said:
That sounds like the perfect title for an amazing WWII movie. I'm thinking The Great Escape meets The Sound of Music with a smidge of Naked Gun.
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Actually showing Overgirl the Sound of Music would be a good idea! She'd likely enjoy it and the ending combined with it based being on a true story would help de-Nazi-fy her.
 
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Cuchulin said:
Actually showing Overgirl the Sound of Music would be a good idea! She'd likely enjoy it and the ending combined that it was based on a true story would help de-Nazi-fy her.
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I wouldn't count on that. Would you like watching a movie about a traitor?
 
Valint said:
Pretty much the same way a modern American justifies slavery and the treatment of native Americans?

I mean, most countries have some sort of dark past, where the usual response by modern citizens ranges from being ashamed about it to whitewashing it to literally defending it as being an unfortunate necessity at the time.

... that is, if they're forced to have a response. The honest actual response for an overwhelming majority of people living in a country that has a genocide in their past is simply not giving a fuck about it.
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I'd like to see her forced to have a response, though.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"National Soc-." She frowns. "Unless he was actually from Bavaria, and his name was a joke? I don't think that he would call himself 'Nazi'."

Huh. Obvious, when you think about it.
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I'm not quite sure what's supposed to be obvious here.

Mr Zoat said:
"His spear was really the Spear of Destiny?"

"It's a very powerful magic spear. I don't know what its origin was, or whether it's the same spear mentioned in whatever arcane text you're thinking of."
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I mean, I suppose that no angel explicitly confirmed it during the Heaven-Hell War arc, but I feel like it's probably accurate to say yes, given its observable effects.

I wonder if Blaze will consider using it (I'm still a bit confused by both her and Overgirl having essentially the same name, is that canonical?).
 
Coda said:
So it is as you say -- there is no good way of defining what a "species" actually is, so we can't really judge the clickers by any strict definition.
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I agree there's no good universal definition. But there's lots of cases where any reasonable notion will give the same answer. And for sexually reproducing organisms that have no possible way of mingling genes, that answer is "separate species".
 
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