With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ace Dreamer]

I'm really not a fan of n52, and will admit to have drifted away from DC&Marvel, etc., the last decade or so. The Green was workable, as an elemental mystical realm, the Red I was more dubious about (arguably it should pre-date the Green), the Grey was (I think) fungi, which I can just about see, but...

The Metal is really dubious, as without oxygen there's naturally iron and nickel all over the place (universe), and gold, silver and copper has been around humans for quite a few millennia. Tech is, if anything, moving away from metal, towards materials with useful nano-structure, providing required properties, like silicon and carbon, neither of which are metals. In a lot of cases the structure and flow of information is what makes the tech work. Metal? That's the clothes the tech (currently) wears. The Flow (electrons, photons, something more esoteric) would arguably be a better name.

Sorry, got a bit carried away, there.

 

[Coda]

Silicon and (arguably) carbon are metalloids, at least! And some allotropes of carbon are even semimetals!

 

[Ace Dreamer]

Silicon and (arguably) carbon are metalloids, at least! And some allotropes of carbon are even semimetals!

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Astronomers call everything but hydrogen and helium 'metals'. The Red includes things with no (red) blood - it seemed to be based on non-plant=animal=blood=red (excluding fungi), what you might call the 'common understanding'. Like most terms, 'metal', when you look at it closely enough, is fuzzy around the edges.

 

[Coda]

Astronomers call everything but hydrogen and helium 'metals'. The Red includes things with no (red) blood - it seemed to be based on non-plant=animal=blood=red (excluding fungi), what you might call the 'common understanding'. Like most terms, 'metal', when you look at it closely enough, is fuzzy around the edges.

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Yes, exactly the point -- given that those are included in the Red, then nitpicking on "the Metal" including things that aren't formally metallic seems a bit silly.

 

[Mr Zoat]

CRUELLY

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Darko]

I think it was also called the Algorithm, or at least that was what the top intelligence that ran the Metal was called.

 

[Jiro]

Hm. He would have been infected before the procedure. I don't know enough about it to know whether the Super Soldier Formula makes the recipients immune to disease. If it does, yes.

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The Super Soldier Formula killed That Which Endures. If that's just another name for Sublime, or if it's similar enough, then he's no longer infected.

Looks like a completely pointless character that Marvel in no way needs. One that I have heard of, but in all my years of reading...have never actually seen show up in an issue. Gladiator I've at least seen.

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Hyperion was a member of the Squadron Supreme, which was explicitly a JLA analog, so this isn't really pointless (except insofar as having a JLA analog is pointless).

 

[DAT_NOOB]

Isn't the story he's been telling everyone is that he was Grayven, who travelled through the Bleed to escape from Darkseid's dominion/find somewhere he could conquer and be sole Power, became Paul in our magicless Earth, then somehow ended back up in DC-verse where his memories came back? So him saying he's Paul would make sense since he'd just lived 20+ years as Paul and it feels more real than his short time as Grayven reborn.

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Except he wasn't actually Grayven who travelled through the bleed a restoration to a false self isn't honesty, while Grayven has (for lack of a better word I'm sorry FAQ I did read you) mantled New god of conquest so that for all conceptual purposes he is Grayven as the Truth it isn't honest, while they can be related they aren't the same.

If he says I am Paul and gains honesty it's proof to the universe he's been fooling that he isn't Grayven.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Hyperion was a member of the Squadron Supreme, which was explicitly a JLA analog, so this isn't really pointless (except insofar as having a JLA analog is pointless).

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So a group of D-listers that no one cares about.

 

[Gantradies]

Do you mean Canis Minor?

He didn't remember fucking Nightmare Moon. He remembered recruiting Nightmare Moon.

No. How a god is worshipped makes little difference to its nature. However, if people keep asking for help with war and not with agriculture then most of his impact will be in the field of war and not agriculture.

If no one asks, the god isn't going to do anything.

No. It would take a massive feat of magic to alter a god's nature once it has come fully into its powers.

Would this mean that Hades could add the domain of wealth to his portfolio because people thought he already had it, or would it mean he would be able to use his powers to locate and manipulate these precious metals and gems because people thought he could, thereby making it easier for him to influence the material universe, but not to the same level as a god who actually possess the domain of wealth or... gem/metal finding/manipulating?

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No.

Only by radical thaumatic chirurgy.

No.[/QUOTE]

... from memory, didnt the Greeks actually associate hades with wealth/precious metals/gems anyway?

its been something like a decade since I last did serious research on Greeko-Roman mythology (too many assholes immune to consequences/coasting after being lucky at birth for my own Liking-allways liked the stories of the Aesir more...), but I vaguely remember something about that being one of the compensations for hades drawing the short straw of a position guarantied to make him... rather unloved by mortals (the Greeks had... quite a thing about death culturally)after Kronos was dealt with- possession of "all the riches of the earth" or something similar..

 

[Vaermina]

It's re-engineering an existing one that's effectively impossible.

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Unless your name is John Constantine, then it's Tuesday.

 

[Gantradies]

Unless your name is John Constantine, then it's Tuesday.

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To be fair, he's got a literal upper-G God/god-tier probability warper devoting 80% of their "life"/powers to fucking with probability to fuck John (and his entire timeline) over out of childish pique- does it really count if the net result is essentially "and the world became just a little more fucked up" each and every time?

 

[Coda]

... from memory, didnt the Greeks actually associate hades with wealth/precious metals/gems anyway?

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They asserted that those riches beneath the earth belonged to the underworld. Hades wasn't a god with the power over those things; they were just his material possessions.

 

[Gantradies]

They asserted that those riches beneath the earth belonged to the underworld. Hades wasn't a god with the power over those things; they were just his material possessions.

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Ah! Thank you for the correction!

 

[Darko]

Plus Erebos isn't so much under the ground as it is in another dimension

 

[Coda]

Plus Erebos isn't so much under the ground as it is in another dimension

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Depends on who you talk to. At least some adherents to the ancient Greek religion believed that the underworld was literally under the world.

 

[Amrynel]

She glares. "Even if We felt inclined to such behaviour, yours would be the last 'proud standing' that We would touch."

I smile saucily. "But you would get there eventually?"

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For some reason I can't get the imagery of Grayven!Paul cosplaying as Jack Sparrow out of my head.

 

[Gantradies]

For some reason I can't get the imagery of Grayven!Paul cosplaying as Jack Sparrow out of my head.

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"you cheated!"
*touches nose* "Apokolyptican!"

 

[desolatedsabers]

"You're the most despicable man i've ever heard of!"
"But you have heard of me?"

Captain jack grayven is a fun idea.

 

[quietwhile]

Plus Erebos isn't so much under the ground as it is in another dimension

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You mean like a lot of christians believe that heaven is both another dimension AND upwards/above the clouds?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Because
why not

Fortunately we both have wings, so while the initial surprise results in us dropping quite a way we both unfurl our natural parachutes and by the time we land on solid ground we're both fully under control.

"Any idea what that was supposed to achieve?"

"Neigh, we do not." Luna and I look around. "And this room doth not exist in Our Palace."

Well, I should hope not. It looks like a Dungeon Keeper's treasure vault in here. Piles of coins of various denominations… They look Wilsonian, so I'm going to assume that they're taken from Luna's memories. There are gem stones as well, and decorative ornaments which use them to contrast the colour of the precious metals that make up most of their mass. One or two paintings with regal-looking ponies and griffins and… One of a dragon.

"This place is a monetarist's nightmare. Why would-?"

"It is another distraction. We must-."

"It's home. For now."

A stallion with a purple pelt and golden mane and tail walks between the piles, smiling as he sees us. His cutie mark is an upended amphora, coins cascading from the opening.

"Though you're quite right, Prince Grayven. My banker has a fit whenever he sees it."

"Prince?"

"That statue earlier? He's the ruler of the planet Apokolips. I'm his son."

"And he cursed you with-?"

"It's a gift, including me in his grand project to eliminate selfhood. A rare favour."

"And you're so ungrateful to him." The stallion shakes his head. "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is. And you, Luna-."

"You would name him 'prince' and yet deny Us Our rightful title?"

"A pity-prize granted you by Princess Celestia. Equestria doesn't really need you, as you know well."

"Yes. We do. Though that shall not prevent Us from placing Ourself in its service. We shall earn Our place once more."

I nod approvingly. "Good attitude. I'll help."

"I can as well."

"We doubt that."

"Oh, but I can. You see, each of the five of us want different things, and… Not all of those desires are best fulfilled by working together."

"Who are you, and what do you want?"

"Now we're getting somewhere. I'm Spoiled Prince, the most generous of us all. You.. want to get out of here with your minds and souls in one piece and I'm happy to help."

"We are somewhat sceptical. What are you?"

"Generosity. More or less. I would happily give away all that I have, and ask nothing in return but to be thought well of. And what I have for you is information."

"The first of you We encountered. The knight."

"Forsaken Vanguard. Our Illustrious Overlord told him to go, so he went. That's what he is."

"He is loyalty, then."

I snort. "He's mindlessly obedient. That's it, isn't it? You're the Elements with parts missing. Forsaken Vanguard can't… What, can't disobey, can't use his own judgement?"

"Our Illustrious Overlord doesn't care about us, obviously. It sends us out without much caring if we can do what it wants."

"Oh, I see. No one who treats those loyal to them that way deserves that loyalty. Having faith in the faithless is inherently self-destructive, which in turn undermines the appeal and value of loyalty."

"Yes, you see, it's rather sophisticated-."

"It's irrelevant. Luna, what do you hate?"

"We have always endeavoured to rise above-."

"Hehhahhahhahhah!"

"Oh.. dear."

Luna turns her head towards the sound. "Who is that?

"Broken Jester. He can keep laughing through any problem… But I'm not sure that laughter is what you need at the moment."

I snort. "Fine. You want to survive. What is your offer?"

"Our Illustrious Overlord won't let Luna leave. It can't; it literally exists to make her miserable. But I can. If you let me I can trot out of here into the dreams of another. I can alert whomsoever you wish. And then it would be a simple matter to alert Princess Celestia or have Prince Grayven conveyed to the Tree of Harmony to have any left within him purged."

"But thou wouldst be safe."

"Ain't that a gag?!"

The Broken Jester stumbles into sight. And I do mean 'stumbles'. His legs are badly burned and trembling and he appears to be having trouble moving them properly. Which is the least of his problems. His eyes have been gouged out, and the remains of his eyes are smeared around their orbits. He's also carrying some sort of wound in his abdomen…

Eyes. And abdomen. And burns.

"Luna, you're better at dream navigation than me." I scoop up the closest coin and hold it out to her. "What is this connected to?"

"It is simply-." She blinks. "A.. coin I saw upon one of the stands on the night of my return. It is literally-."

I scoop up another as Spoiled Prince scowls.

"And this one?"

"It was on the top of the coins in the chest given to us by Chief Æthelgriff by means of reparations. And-" She looks aside. "-this was next to it, and this…"

"Broken Jester is showing some of my more serious injuries. They're taking bits from us to make themselves."

"If they can do that… Granting him access to other dreams would-."

"How perceptive! Yes, yes, we'd strip them of every memory until we were strong enough to enter the real world. But oh well. We already have enough from you to-."

A coin pile to our left explodes as Twisted Caretaker leaps out, dozens of-. Ow, suddenly sharpened metal discs bite into my face and armour.

"Surprise! We're going to empty everyone out slowly, and I'll hold them and stroke their manes as their minds collapse!"

Behind us, a pile of coins is shoved aside, the Forsaken Vanguard wading into position with shield and halberd at the ready.

"I do as I am-"

The Elements of Harmony.

"-bid."

"You're actually compatible with the Elements of Harmony, aren't you? You could make a run at the Tree."

Another pile slides aside to reveal Yelling Fool.

"That's what I was told!"

Spoiled Prince smiles at his fellows.

"I could hardly deny them their ambition. And don't all ponies want to become more virtuous?"

"Luna-."

"In fact…"

Their eyes light up and rainbow lights dance around them.

"Didn't you want to be exposed to the Elements?"

 

[Handlewithcare]

Uh oh. Nega-Rainbow Lazors.

Though me thinks the Tree might object to this.

 

[Istaran]

Well done, Zoat. Up until now I didn't know what to think of the creepy dream ponies and they just sort of quietly were there.. But this.. I've got shivers from the creepfest. Beautifully done.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Because
why not

Fortunately we both have wings, so while the initial surprise results in us dropping quite a way we both unfurl our natural parachutes and by the time we hand on solid ground we're both fully under control.

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Yeah, kind of expected that. Hard for falling to be a threat to anyone with wings.

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Any idea what that was supposed to achieve?"

"Neigh, we do not." Luna and I look around. "And this room doth not exist in Our Palace."

Click to shrink...

It was a symbolic movement sequence. You were somewhere, now you're somewhere else...

Well, I should hope not. It looks like a Dungeon Keeper's treasure vault in here. Piles of coins of various denominations… They look Wilsonian, so I'm going to assume that they're taken from Luna's memories. There are gem stones as well, and decorative ornaments which use them to contrast the colour of the precious metals that make up most of their mass. One or two paintings with regal-looking ponies and griffins and… One of a dragon.

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Huh, someone has odd tastes.

"This place is a monetarist's nightmare. Why would-?"

"It is another distraction. We must-."

"It's home. For now."

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And another one? What's that make? Six?

A stallion with a purple pelt and golden mane and tail walks between the piles, smiling as he sees us. His cutie mark is an upended amphora, coins cascading from the opening.

"Though you're quite right, Prince Grayven. My banker has a fit whenever he sees it."

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Huh, someone who actually recognises Grayven's title. That's not good.

"Prince?"

"That statue earlier? He's the ruler of the planet Apokolips. I'm his son."

"And he cursed you with-?"

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"He has strange tastes."

"It's a gift; including me in his grand project to eliminate selfhood. A rare favour."

"And you're so ungrateful to him." The stallion shakes his head. "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is. And you, Luna-."

"You would name him 'prince' and yet deny Us Our rightful title?"

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Well, technically...

"A pity-prize granted you by Princess Celestia. Equestria doesn't really need you, as you know well."

"Yes. We do. Though that shall not prevent Us from placing Ourself in its service. We shall earn Our place once more."

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...Yes. Equestria must have been in a flap about what Kuna's status as Princess meant now. They've been ruled by a single Princess for a millenium. What does a second one mean? Do they rule together? Take turns? Will Luna go somewhere to rule there? I can imagine the concern in the upper nobility.

I nod approvingly. "Good attitude. I'll help."

"I can as well."

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Yeah, they don't want whatever help you're offering...

"We doubt that."

"Oh, but I can. You see, each of the five of us want different things, and… Not all of those desires are best fulfilled by working together."

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Fascinating. Almost like a dark mirror of...

"Who are you, and what do you want?"

"Now we're getting somewhere. I'm Spoiled Prince, the most generous of us all. You.. want to get out of here with your minds and souls in one piece and I'm happy to help."

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Just as long as he can follow in their wake? How mercenary.

"We are somewhat sceptical. What are you?"

"Generosity. More or less. I would happily give away all that I have, and ask nothing in return but to be thought well of. And what I have for you is information."

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I see. He values nothing of what he has, so giving it away means nothing to him. What sort of generosity is that?

"The first of you We encountered. The knight."

"Forsaken Vanguard. Our Illustrious Overlord told him to go, so he went. That's what he is."

"He is loyalty, then."

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Blind loyalty. Unreasoning obedience.

I snort. "He's mindlessly obedient. That's it, isn't it? You're the Elements with parts missing. Forsaken Vanguard can't… What, can't disobey, can't use his own judgement?"

"Our Illustrious Overlord doesn't care about us, obviously. It sends us out without much caring if we can do what it wants."

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Much like what Darkseid does with the Lowlies, and even His soldiers.

"Oh, I see. No one who treats those loyal to them that way deserves that loyalty. Having faith in the faithless is inherently self-destructive, which in turn undermines the appeal and value of loyalty."

"Yes, you see, it's rather sophisticated-."

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It's horrifying, that's what it is...

"It's irrelevant. Luna, what do you hate?"

"We have always endeavoured to rise above-."

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Not 'Politely dislike', Luna. Hate with all your being.

"Hehhahhahhahhah!"

"Oh.. dear."

Luna turns her head towards the sound. "Who is that?

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Crud, more of them turning up. That can't be good.

"Broken Jester. He can keep laughing through any problem… But I'm not sure that laughter is what you need at the moment."

I snort. "Fine. You want to survive. What is your offer?"

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Again: "What do you want?" I can tell that's going to be a running joke here.

"Our Illustrious Overlord won't let Luna leave. It can't; it literally exists to make her miserable. But I can. If you let me I can trot out of here into the dreams of another. I can alert whomsoever you wish. And then it would be a simple matter to alert Princess Celestia or have Prince Grayven conveyed to the Tree of Harmony to have any left within him purged."

"But thou wouldn't be safe."

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And running loose about the minds of Equestria. I'd say that'll be a hard 'No'.

"Ain't that a gag?!"

The Broken Jester stumbles into sight. And I do mean 'stumbles'. His legs are badly burned and trembling and he appears to be having trouble moving them properly. Which is the least of his problems. His eyes have been gouged out, and the remains of his eyes are smeared around their orbits. He's also carrying some sort of wound in his abdomen…

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Wait, those injuries...

Eyes. And abdomen. And burns.

"Luna, you're better at dream navigation than me." I scoop up the closest coin and hold it out to her. "What is this connected to?"

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He caught it too...

"It is simply-." She blinks. "A.. coin I saw upon one of the stands on the night of my return. It is literally-."

I scoop up another as Spoiled Prince scowls.

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Yeah, your fortune is stolen, isn't it? No wonder you're so generous, spending other people's money.

"And this one?"

"It was on the top of the coins in the chest given to us by Chief Æthelgriff by means of reparations. And-" She looks aside. "-this was next to it, and this…"

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It's all stolen, isn't it? Not the money, the Ponies.

"Broken Jester is showing some of my more serious injuries. They're taking bits from us to make themselves."

"If they can do that… Granting him access to other dreams would-."

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Yep. None of them can be allowed to leave. They'd destroy the world just because they can.

"How perceptive! Yes, yes, we'd strip them of every memory until we were strong enough to enter the real world. But oh well. We already have enough from you to-."

A coin pile to our left explodes as Twisted Caretaker leaps out, dozens of-. Ow, suddenly sharpened metal discs bite into my face and armour.

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And twisted Kindness. She's going to take care of you, all right. Even if she has to hurt you herself...

"Surprise! We're going to empty everyone out slowly, and I'll hold them and stroke their manes as their minds collapse!"

Behind us, a pile of coins is shoved aside, the Forsaken Vanguard wading into position with shield and halberd at the ready.

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And foolish Loyalty.

"I do as I am-"

The Elements of Harmony.

"-bid."

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Elements twisted into cursed, mad reflections. Truly insidious.

"You're actually compatible with the Elements of Harmony, aren't you? You could make a run at the Tree."

Another pile slides aside to reveal Yelling Fool.

"That's what I was told!"

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Honesty. Cruel, unthinking honesty with no concern for the harm it causes.

Spoiled Prince smiles at his fellows.

"I could hardly deny them their ambition. And don't all ponies want to become more virtuous?"

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But... There's one missing, isn't there?

"Luna-."

"In fact…"

Their eyes light up and rainbow lights dance around them.

"Didn't you want to be exposed to the Elements?"

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Not these elements. I wouldn't be surprised if the Tantaquation is acting as the sixth element.

Well, done, Mr Zoat. Well done indeed. This turned from a simple vision quest into a twisted battle for the safety of Equestria. It'll be interesting to go back and read the Dark Elements' appearances, with this in mind.

 

[Enochi]

Well ain't that interesting. Very similar to what RHjunior mentioned in Audience on how his character would deal with the elements by ramping up their virtues into vices.

Loyalty into Fanaticism
Kindness into Smothering
Generosity into Self-Destruction
Honesty into Tactlessness
Laughter into Ludicrous
and Friendship into Co-dependency

So which of these fakes are which again might be getting some mixed up.

Twisted Caretaker is Kindness
Spoiled Prince is Generosity
Broken Jester is Laughter
Forsaken Vanguard is Loyalty
Yelling Fool is Honesty?
Was Friendship mentioned yet or no?

 

[Diraniola]

Well ain't that interesting. Very similar to what RHjunior mentioned in Audience on how his character would deal with the elements by ramping up their virtues into vices.

Loyalty into Fanaticism
Kindness into Smothering
Generosity into Self-Destruction
Honesty into Tactlessness
Laughter into Ludicrous
and Friendship into Co-dependency

So which of these fakes are which again might be getting some mixed up.

Twisted Caretaker is Kindness
Spoiled Prince is Generosity
Broken Jester is Laughter
Forsaken Vanguard is Loyalty
Yelling Fool is Honesty?
Was Friendship mentioned yet or no?

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Spoiled Prince mentioned an Illustrious Overlord in this chapter that was suspiciously capitalized. Also, I thought the 6 the element was magic?

 

[Vaermina]

"That statue earlier? He's the ruler of the planet Apokolips. I'm his son."

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Getting farther and father away from that Honesty Gem, aren't you Grayven.

 

[Shotiegun11]

Getting farther and father away from that Honesty Gem, aren't you Grayven.

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Darkseid acknowledged the renegade as his son. Whether as a replacement for Grayven 16 or for his own amusement we don't know. Technically a true statement.

 

[Jack of Olives]

Loyalty into Fanaticism
Kindness into Smothering
Generosity into Self-Destruction
Honesty into Tactlessness
Laughter into Ludicrous
and Friendship into Co-dependency

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Terrible, but not particularly Harmonious. Maybe the 'Elements of Disfunctionality'?

 

[rkyeun]

Was Friendship mentioned yet or no?

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Illustrious Overlord - who cares nothing for them.
Friendship into Exploitation.