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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Doesn't enlightenment mean that even if something is powerful enough to screw with his head, he'd still know it was messed with, yes?
It varies. Attempts to compel him to believe that he wants something he doesn't want will flat out fail, rewriting his memory is very difficult and telepathic illusions aren't affected.
 
Doesn't enlightenment mean that even if something is powerful enough to screw with his head, he'd still know it was messed with, yes?
Real masters of manipulation can jerk you around by saying things that are reasonable and true at just the right moment.

Not really? He always knows what he wants, you can't really make him want things he doesn't, or stop wanting what he wants, that's pretty much it as far as defense goes.

Any manipulations based around things he already desires, like say protecting people, should be pretty trivial, he might realize or not, but it doesn't change the fact that it could stick.

As we are seeing here, he is not sure, but knows he might have been screwed with, still, he keeps proceeding in this vein regardless, likely because his want for certainty ranks higher than his want for avoiding acting on someone's manipulation.
 
Actually, we do know that there was some kind of master effect going on, if OL was affected or not is something we are less sure off, but we absolutely know boss smiley was attempting to influence his mind pretty actively.

Hence why he should have checked for brainwashing; did he forgot his checklist on what to do when dealing with people that seems very convincing?

Heck he was dead, in Hell and Heaven.

Lasso of truth should be one of the steps.

It varies. Attempts to compel him to believe that he wants something he doesn't want will flat out fail, rewriting his memory is very difficult and telepathic illusions aren't affected.

Doubt is basically a unused Power Ring source, ever read Red Son?

DC surely have some great smoth talkers.
 
Hence why he should have checked for brainwashing; did he forgot his checklist on what to do when dealing with people that seems very convincing?
I don't think he has one of those.
Doubt is basically a unused Power Ring source, ever read Red Son?
Yes, but I'm not sure how it applies. The Green Lantern Marine Corps failed to contain Superman due to him being Golden Age Superman, and some of them not being able to maintain the intensity of concentration the exotic construct they were trying to use required. None of them really doubted the rightness of their cause.
 
I don't think he has one of those.

Yes, but I'm not sure how it applies. The Green Lantern Marine Corps failed to contain Superman due to him being Golden Age Superman, and some of them not being able to maintain the intensity of concentration the exotic construct they were trying to use required. None of them really doubted the rightness of their cause.

As far as I understand that's what the Ultraviolet ring corps in new 52 is supposed to be - a ring corps run by a Lovecraftian monstrosity (a living galaxy) that runs off of negative emotions like doubt, lust, terror (doesn't quite make sense), etc... and makes rings that run using them.
 
Well, on the earlier Alan stuff . . . If I remember correctly.

Alan was pretty faithful to his wife, even with her being dead, and was basically waiting for old age to do its thing so that he could be reunited with her in the afterlife. Even though Paul knew this . . . Well, it doesn't really matter what other people want if it clashes with what he wants. Especially after his enlightenment. So he wasn't about to just let Alan die.

And somewhere along the way Alan just rolled with it and accepted that Blue Ring. Don't remember what made him move away from the plan to see his wife again. Probably stuff being said about afterlives or whatever making his plans more or less impossible with all the Hellblazer stuff mixed in.

His wife probably went to Hell. Maybe she got fed into one of those machines that eat souls and shit out manufactured goods. So for all we know, she could be some random demon's chair. Or a tasteful little ottoman they rest their feet on after a long day of torturing the damned.
 
As far as I understand that's what the Ultraviolet ring corps in new 52 is supposed to be - a ring corps run by a Lovecraftian monstrosity (a living galaxy) that runs off of negative emotions like doubt, lust, terror (doesn't quite make sense), etc... and makes rings that run using them.
I heard about that, decided it was stupid and then stopped thinking about it. I might run Nekron as a Lovecraftian, but I'm not interested in adding even more colours.
Well, on the earlier Alan stuff . . . If I remember correctly.

Alan was pretty faithful to his wife, even with her being dead, and was basically waiting for old age to do its thing so that he could be reunited with her in the afterlife.
Not exactly. He was faithful to her even though she was clinically insane and the marriage was nullified. After she died he didn't really reflect on the subject of his newly rediscovered singleness.
Even though Paul knew this . . . Well, it doesn't really matter what other people want if it clashes with what he wants. Especially after his enlightenment. So he wasn't about to just let Alan die.

And somewhere along the way Alan just rolled with it and accepted that Blue Ring. Don't remember what made him move away from the plan to see his wife again. Probably stuff being said about afterlives or whatever making his plans more or less impossible with all the Hellblazer stuff mixed in.
Alan mostly realises that what he was doing probably wasn't sensible or healthy, but his resolve never faltered. Alan's borderline suicidal behaviour was more about how he wanted to die that what he was planning on doing after he died.
His wife probably went to Hell. Maybe she got fed into one of those machines that eat souls and shit out manufactured goods. So for all we know, she could be some random demon's chair. Or a tasteful little ottoman they rest their feet on after a long day of torturing the damned.
I've seen DC comics do Hell in both ways. In Another Nail, the Joker went to Hell upon his death. But in The Spectre, the Spectre refused to kill a murderer because the man was insane and so couldn't be held responsible for his actions. So it's quite possible that if the Joker died the Joker personality would be expunged and Jack Napier, failed comedian but basically decent guy, would go to Heaven. With Dissociative Identity Disorder... No idea. It might depend on whether Thorn Canton counted as a separate individual or just as a new set of behaviours. And it's quite possible that after spending most of her life on Themyscira that she went to Erebus.
 
I don't think he has one of those.

Yes, but I'm not sure how it applies. The Green Lantern Marine Corps failed to contain Superman due to him being Golden Age Superman, and some of them not being able to maintain the intensity of concentration the exotic construct they were trying to use required. None of them really doubted the rightness of their cause.

You didn't understand my comment.

I said DOUBT is the unused emotional exprectrum due to how powerful is on DC.

Just a few words were enough to make Red Son Superman change his plans and let Lex Luthor win.

Boss Smiled did to Oh El the equivalent of
Why don't you trap the whole World in a bottle, Superman?
to the greed snake in a human body.
 
You didn't understand my comment.

I said DOUBT is the unused emotional exprectrum due to how powerful is on DC.

Just a few words were enough to make Red Son Superman change his plans and let Lex Luthor win.
It wasn't just that. Superman had already been having doubts, and said as much when he noted to Wonder Woman that ships didn't bother having life rafts any more.
Boss Smiled did to Oh El the equivalent of
Why don't you trap the whole World in a bottle, Superman?
to the greed snake in a human body.
It's more of a Yoko factor, really.
 
You didn't understand my comment.

I said DOUBT is the unused emotional exprectrum due to how powerful is on DC.

Just a few words were enough to make Red Son Superman change his plans and let Lex Luthor win.

Boss Smiled did to Oh El the equivalent of
Why don't you trap the whole World in a bottle, Superman?
to the greed snake in a human body.
Is this a reference to something specific (the spoiler?)
 
Is this a reference to something specific (the spoiler?)

In Superman Red Son, Superman landed in Ukraine I believe, and grew up as Stalin's heir to the Soviet Union.

President Lex Luther of the USA was the last holdout, when they and one other country was the only countries left on Earth that hadn't gone communist.

One of Soviet Superman's greatest failures, in his opinion, was that Brainaic shrank a city, and Superman couldn't figure out how to free them.

So Lex's note, "Why don't you just put us all in bottles?" caused Soviet Superman to equate his own actions with Brainiac, so he forfeited. Lex Luther won.
 
Doesn't enlightenment mean that even if something is powerful enough to screw with his head, he'd still know it was messed with, yes?
Real masters of manipulation can jerk you around by saying things that are reasonable and true at just the right moment.

Enlightenment means he is aware of his own desires at all times, that he is immune to corruption from the orange light, and somewhat resistant to the anti-life. There's no generic resistance to mind control effect there
 
Enlightenment means he is aware of his own desires at all times, that he is immune to corruption from the orange light, and somewhat resistant to the anti-life. There's no generic resistance to mind control effect there

And if he was immune to have doubts he would be a monster anyway.
 
Enlightenment means he is aware of his own desires at all times, that he is immune to corruption from the orange light, and somewhat resistant to the anti-life. There's no generic resistance to mind control effect there
He can compare desires before and after? Unless he has no desire to do so? A desire not to do so? Remember, perfect memory allows him to remember all his past desires? Supported by his ring - while his head can be fucked with, the ring giving him perfect memory backup is harder to do so to, being an unhackable supercomputer.

Edit after thinking it out more: Though that might not matter if he could explain the brainwashing by having developed the thoughts himself after hearing Smiley talk. Also, he temporarily lost his enlightenment in the brainwashing machine, which would keep him from noticing sudden changes in his psyche.

A possible sequence of events: he got captured, unenlightened, brainwashed, convinced that the ideas implanted came from Boss Smiley simply talking, explaining them when he regained his enlightenment, then regained his enlightenment. The brainwashing may have been some sort of soul editing - unlike everyone else's Paul's soul is vulnerable against foreign magic. His "soul brain" lacks any firewalls. The only way to unbrainwash him is if he denies the brainwashing and snaps out of it - if it conflicts with existing soul structures. That conversation with Boss Smiley might have just been testing if the brainwashing would hold. Even after rejecting Boss Smiley, the parts of the brainwashing he didn't mind too much might have stayed, and Boss Smiley started talking with the minor be careful brainwashing rather than the major serve me brainwashing, which might be easier to resist. The conversation would have been to make him accept the brainwashing, which is why he was trying to get verbal consent.


He is actually more vulnerable to this kind of magical/soul brainwashing - remember when Paul got exposed to hell and got demonified?
 
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Hoard (part 3)
11th January
09:39 GMT


Since I don't have anyone at the other end, I'm forced to come fully into the Honden. My starting location is as it was last time, but now I'm certain that this is just my mind's attempt to turn what is actually here into something concrete. Like… When they showed the Q Continuum in Star Trek Voyager. Just one interpretation, though one that is completely valid so long as you remember that it isn't the only one.

Not wrong or dishonest, just easier to deal with. Like organising a reference library by the Dewey Decimal system rather than just putting the books in a big pile.

I'm not surprised that I'm manifesting in here as a snake rather than a humanoid, or… I don't know, a vague presence or something. And I feel my skin made of my desire for wholeness and integrity, and the blood which supports it made of the memories of early injuries and ancient, ancestral weighting given to physical states which promoted survival. If I stare deeply, I could follow those threads back to the individuals who first bore the genetic mutations which caused those behaviours.

"If you're quite done with your navel-gazing?"

Hinon appears as Hinon, wearing her desire for her Hinonness as her robes. I could probably look deeper, but… That would be rude. And counterproductively unnecessary. I'd like her to open up, to work with her on realising her ambitions, and I'm sure that she's still enough of a Guardian to resent a mortal stripling like me being too assertive about it.

"I'm not sure that snakes have navels."

I flow down a not-corridor, my tongue of ambition and curiosity flicking out. Morris Brocklesby's desires have a particular taste to them. His absolute abhorrence of death, his fear of his own decay… Yes, I know those drives well.

I touch the Ophidian's presence for a moment, communicating as I do exactly how gosh darn much I appreciate not having to worry about things like that any longer.

If they'd pushed us, we'd have eaten our way through the Silver City, wouldn't we?

Yes, my Agent.

Stupid angels. / Stupid angels.

Ah, here we are! The taste of his desire, mixed with the desire of one of the Endless… I can't put it in other terms, but once tasted never forgotten. The only place like it I found in Sol is my toilet on the moon, which means that either one of them visited me while I was us, or they just really needed to use the facilities.

Fawney Rig, here we come!

I step
out onto the grass outside of the fully restored manor. Wearing my formal robes, I note. Something about how I think of myself, probably. But… They're not really the clothes for traipsing across a National Trust property in England during the winter, even if an environmental shield means that I don't really have to worry about either the mud or the cold. I switch the robes out for something a little more appropriate: a tweed suit, waistcoat, shirt and tie, all with the orange sigil embroidered somewhere upon the material.

Hinon returns to the corporeal universe a moment later, appearing as she did when we left. Parts of her robes glow with orange light, pulling away from her body almost like they're… Sticking to the place we just passed through. She glances at them, a faint hint of nervousness in her eyes as they fall into place.

"Hmpf. Not the most comfortable way to travel."

"I can only suggest complaining to the Ophidian. Or to the entirety of Creation, given whose desires make up that place."

"And don't you think that I won't." She looks around, seeing the manor for the first time. "Hm."

"Would you like a guided tour, or do you want to just wander around on your own for a bit?"

"Hm."

"I'm sorry, Controller Hinon, my ring's translator appear to have broken. Would you-?"

"How in the Triarch's name did that even work?" She looks up at me. "Do you have any concept of the effort my people put into studying the Endless?"

"No? Was it… A lot?"

"Humans." She shakes her head. "A bizarre combination of ambition, brilliance and shocking superficiality."

"You know full well whose fault that is."

She stares up at me, her expression hardening. "Yees."

"Though I am working on the superficiality. Also… While there's no one around…" Though this is a national trust property, this isn't exactly peak tourist season. "Could you possibly check-?"

"Oh, for-. Uhr." She raises her hands, orange mists flowing around us for a moment. "Nothing. No detectable overflow, or 'weakening of the veil' or whatever else you've convinced yourself is happening."

"Thank you."

"Hm. Well, while we're here-."

I frown at her. "Is this what you're actually like? Or is the whole crotchety grandmother thing a mask? I've been wondering for a while."

"Is the impudent grandson façade what you're really like, or."

"Yes-." She stopped talking before I could interrupt. I smile.

She doesn't. Instead, she walks towards the wrought iron gates and passes through them without disrupting the ironwork at all.

"Ah, excuse me?! Ah, you can't-!"

I jog towards the ticket office, giving the woman inside a friendly smile. "Don't mind her. I'm paying."

"Oh-" She turns my way with a smile. "-right. Yes, but… There are rules about magic-. People being allowed on the site. We had an.. incident a while ago…"

I look at Hinon's departing back. "What..? Do you think she is?"

Her eyes widen, her right hand covering her mouth in horror. "Oh God, is she just-? I thought-."

"No, she's an alien. I just wondered how much training you get on a job like this."

She reaches down and pulls up a laminated sheet from below her desk. Simple drawing of the sorts of thing that might turn up, clear labels for each one and a green-yellow-red danger rating. Fae, demons and John Constantine.

"Is that booth warded?"

"I think so?"

I bow my head. "I'll get it upgraded tomorrow. Are you supposed to report things like this?"

"Actually…" She frowns. "I don't think we have to report aliens. Um."

I shake my head and I take the… Hm. Hinon should qualify as an OAP, shouldn't she? Take the fifteen pounds and eighty pence out of subspace and slide it under the window. "Feel free to report it. Our visit isn't a secret."

"Okay. Um, are you..? Orange Lantern?"

"One of them, yes. Was it the ring or the glowing orange eyes which gave me away?"

"Oh. Um, the manor's not about to explode or anything, is it?"

I bow my head. "Not to the best of my knowledge, no. But I better go and keep an eye on Hinon just in case. Do you have a guidebook?"
 
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Morris Brocklesby's desires have a particular taste to them.
Don't miss the link here, folks, it'll help make sense of things.

The only place like it I found in Sol is my toilet on the moon, which means that either one of them visited me while I was us, or they just really needed to use the facilities.
Good to see he has at least some awareness of his previous encounter, even if he doesn't remember properly.

Hinon returns to the corporeal universe a moment later, appearing as she did when we left. Parts of her robes glow with orange light, pulling away from her body almost like they're… Sticking to the place we just passed through. She glances at them, a faint hint of nervousness in her eyes as they fall into place.
And more than a little concerning. I suspect anyone not marinated in Orange Light like she is would not have come through in one piece...

"Hmpf. Not the most comfortable way to travel."
And she is really marinated in Orange Light, if she's talking like that...

"I'm sorry, Controller Hinon, my ring's translator appear to have broken. Would you-?"
Hinon: "Watch the sass, boy."

I frown at her. "Is this what you're actually like? Or is the whole crotchety grandmother thing a mask? I've been wondering for a while."
Hinon: "What did I just say about sass?"

She reaches down and pulls up a laminated sheet from below her desk. Simple drawing of the sorts of thing that might turn up, clear labels for each one and a green-yellow-red danger rating. Fae, demons and John Constantine.
:D Of course. And I expect he's tagged with the highest possible danger level? No, no, of course he is! :rolleyes:

I bow my head. "Not to the best of my knowledge, no. But I better go and keep an eye on Hinon just in case. Do you have a guidebook?"
Ah, British politeness at its finest. Hopefully Murphy isn't listening right now.

Some fun interaction with Hinon here. Love the snark-fest.
And my turquoise marker went unused? I feel positively redundant. ;)

What does that line mean?
Likely a reference to the White entity, currently curled up in a demiplane inside Earth.
 
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Simple drawing of the sorts of thing that might turn up, clear labels for each one and a green-yellow-red danger rating. Fae, demons and John Constantine.
o_O:rolleyes:
...
:):D
...
Ironically England knows what the most dangerous of those creatures is!! And they don't even know about the whole Lord of Balance!! (or whatever he calls himself)
:cool::cool:
 
I think when Paul mentions humans being the fault of the Guardians, he is either referring to the White Entity, the fact that humans exist is because of love relationships between the Endless and Maltusians, or both. I admittedly don't know much about the Endless/Maltusian thing, so can someone who does post a summary of what happened in that story?
 
Hinon appears as Hinon, wearing her desire for her Hinonness as her robes. I could probably look deeper, but… That would be rude. And counterproductively unnecessary. I'd like her to open up, to work with her on realising her ambitions, and I'm sure that she's still enough of a Guardian to resent a mortal stripling like me being too assertive about it.
Welp, I guess we now know someone better able to control their desires then Paul.

If they'd pushed us, we'd have eaten our way through the Silver City, wouldn't we?
Dawww, isn't that cute.

I give it 37% at most before the Voice of God showed up and obliterated you from existence.
 
Why is this place public? Didn't it belong to a secret society in active use till the 90s? Is Moris Brockleby still alive? Shouldn't he be in hell instead of here? Do desires stick around places people live?
Also, I don't think OL ever explained the history of this place to Hinon. There was no recent explanation of who Moris Brockleby was (no link either).
 
Welp, I guess we now know someone better able to control their desires then Paul.


Dawww, isn't that cute.

I give it 37% at most before the Voice of God showed up and obliterated you from existence.
Eh... she seems at most about as good at it as Paul is, but not better. She did have the whole clothes fraying going on at the end and found it uncomfortable.

Um... people went over this already in previous chapters... Heaven isn't necessarily protected by the voice of god - He seems to have just let it run. Not sure he really cares what happens to it at this point. I don't think Paul would have, or even could have eaten all of heaven. The Ophidian would likely not have been able to take out the voice of god (if he got involved). Eaten his way out of heaven, though... (what he seems to be implying) probably, especially if he just went straight for the exit with no unnecessary violence - and left everyone who left him alone alone. I don't think most angels cared about him, and those that did attack would either respawn or be considered to be against the Presence (such as that one king who was taken down).
 
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Your answers, inside a neat little spoiler to save space:
Why is this place public?
Because after Alex Burgess died, it went to the public?

Didn't it belong to a secret society in active use till the 90s?
Up until 1988 or so, when Dream escaped. And that was over twenty years ago (in universe, it's 2011). Yes, the 90's were that long ago.

Is Moris Brockleby still alive?
As noted in the link, he died in 1947. His son Alex inherited the hall.

Shouldn't he be in hell instead of here? Do desires stick around places people live?
Presumably he is in Hell. And as the SI notes, Desires can linger in places where they were strongly felt.

Also, I don't think OL ever explained the history of this place to Hinon.
Next chapter, I bet. Helped by the guidebook.

There was no recent explanation of who Moris Brockleby was (no link either).
Check the mention of his name in the story post. He's also known as Roderick Burgess, the man who captured Dream for almost a century.
 
Welp, I guess we now know someone better able to control their desires then Paul.


Dawww, isn't that cute.

I give it 37% at most before the Voice of God showed up and obliterated you from existence.

then the universe becomes extremely apathetic as it loses all sense of want.

also, i thought the 9 (well 10) entities were stronger than that?
 
Up until 1988 or so, when Dream escaped. And that was over twenty years ago (in universe, it's 2011). Yes, the 90's were that long ago.


[/spoiler]

Yes, but, as far as I know, secret society meeting places don't become museums that quickly most of the time (I may be wrong). My impression has been 50 years minimum, though I don't really know. Most of the time, especially if nothing know to be important happened there, the house would just be sold to the next owner to get money for the government.
What does the public think happened here?
 
Yes, but, as far as I know, secret society meeting places don't become museums that quickly most of the time (I may be wrong).
Speculation: Sure they do, you just usually don't know that they were (or still are, perhaps) meeting places for secret societies, because after all, they're secret.
 

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