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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Mr Zoat said:
Given that I've already said that I'm not using the Spectre, why would you think that I would use Not!Spectre?

Is that a mathematical thing?
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While you might choose not to use it, that doesn't mean it's not there.

Especially when you're dealing with an omnipresent multiversal existence like the silver city.
 
Queshire said:
... considering that he's the author I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it means.
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If he didn't want them to exist he probably should have avoided having his characters travel to universes where they very specifically do exist thereby causing his story to exist within the general multiverse that all of DC exists within.
 
From DC fandom page, the voice of god seems to be the thing in control of the Spectre. The intermediary between him and God. Just because the Spectre isn't there in this universe, doesn't mean the voice isn't there. So I thought that was a thing that might be there somewhere, just unconfirmed / unused - since it's one of like 2 things on the page that the Presence uses to appear - the hand and the voice. The hand of god is confirmed (chrona saw it), and there needed to be something behind the mind of god idea, so I thought the Voice of God was there, but there was no Spectre chosen.
Basically Mind of God but real.
If that's not the case and not what Varrmina was talking about I agree that it shouldn't be a thing.
 
Vaermina said:
If he didn't want them to exist he probably should have avoided having his characters travel to universes where they very specifically do exist thereby causing his story to exist within the general multiverse that all of DC exists within.
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There is a different Presence for each universe though, right? Just because the Voice exists in one universe, doesn't mean he will travel to a different one.
 
Mquz said:
There is a different Presence for each universe though, right? Just because the Voice exists in one universe, doesn't mean he will travel to a different one.
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There's just one Presence that exists across the DC multiverse, and it was it which created said multiverse. But while there is just a single Presence it's such a complex and powerful being that there exists multiple aspects of it which is where "The Voice", "The Source", "The Wrath", "The Vengeance", "The Mercy", and "The Hand" come in.
 
Vaermina said:
There's just one Presence that exists across the DC multiverse, and it was it which created said multiverse. But while there is just a single Presence it's such a complex and powerful being that there exists multiple aspects of it which is where "The Voice", "The Source", "The Wrath", "The Vengeance", "The Mercy", and "The Hand" come in.
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Point still holds in that just because the Presence is Multiversal, and the Hand and the Source are confirmed, not all aspects have to exist in this universe. They could, but the Presence might (due to author fiat) decide to leave some out and see how things go. Or entirely different aspects might come up. Even if the Voice exists, doesn't mean the Spectre does, or that Heaven is actually all that important to the Presence in this universe. The "do it all yourself" approach might extend that far up.
The Ophidian eating it's way through Earth's Heaven might not actually be a big universal-level threat, even if it succeeds. Remember, Heaven tends to not interfere and was somewhat useless anyways. It might not be working completely in line with what the Presence wants (one of it's leaders wasn't), and humans seem to be able to draw on the Source without the help of angels. Heaven might be getting left behind as humans ascend to be the next New Gods.
The main thing to remember is that here, Heaven isn't "the place that the Presence rules/ lives in", but just a place dedicated to worshipping him (which he may not need/want), a no longer needed intermediary between Man and the Presence. Angels have a heierarchy, with 4 kings, who all have free will, and the Presence may have purposefully stopped directing them to keep the status quo/make them think for themselves.
 
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Mquz said:
Point still holds in that just because the Presence is Multiversal, and the Hand and the Source are confirmed, not all aspects have to exist in this universe. They could, but the Presence might (due to author fiat) decide to leave some out and see how things go. Or entirely different aspects might come up. Even if the Voice exists, doesn't mean the Spectre does, or that Heaven is actually all that important to the Presence in this universe. The "do it all yourself" approach might extend that far up.
The Ophidian eating it's way through Earth's Heaven might not actually be a big universal-level threat, even if it succeeds. Remember, Heaven tends to not interfere and was somewhat useless anyways. It might not be working completely in line with what the Presence wants (one of it's leaders wasn't), and humans seem to be able to draw on the Source without the help of angels. Heaven might be getting left behind as humans ascend to be the next New Gods.
The main thing to remember is that here, Heaven isn't "the place that the Presence rules/ lives in", but just a place dedicated to worshipping him (which he may not need/want), a no longer needed intermediary between Man and the Presence. Angels have a heierarchy, with 4 kings, who all have free will, and the Presence may have purposefully stopped directing them to keep the status quo/make them think for themselves.
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Keep in mind that like how there's only a single Presence there's also only a single Silver City.

The place exists outside the Speed Force barrier and collects souls from all the DC multiverse.
 
Vaermina said:
Keep in mind that like how there's only a single Presence there's also only a single Silver City.

The place exists outside the Speed Force barrier and collects souls from all the DC multiverse.
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Except, the author has not stated or indicated that the Silver City is multiversal in his custom-made universe, nor has he stated that any of the other multitude of universes he's visited aren't also slightly modified so that they lack the multiversal being that he clearly stated is not in the story.

Also, he's has/will visit the Kung Fu Panda universe, the MLP universe, the Avatar(series) universe, the Captain Planet universe... are we going to say that any inherent aspects of those also exist in all of the DC universes?
 
Buggy123 said:
Except, the author has not stated or indicated that the Silver City is multiversal in his custom-made universe, nor has he stated that any of the other multitude of universes he's visited aren't also slightly modified so that they lack the multiversal being that he clearly stated is not in the story.

Also, he's has/will visit the Kung Fu Panda universe, the MLP universe, the Avatar(series) universe, the Captain Planet universe... are we going to say that any inherent aspects of those also exist in all of the DC universes?
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...

I guess so.
 
Vaermina said:
Keep in mind that like how there's only a single Presence there's also only a single Silver City.

The place exists outside the Speed Force barrier and collects souls from all the DC multiverse.
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Are you also sure this is the same Silver City? It could be a lesser copy of that. Also, this is an AU fic, with some things similar to the DC universe. Major differences are ok. For one, OL doesn't exist in canon earth 16, Vandal Savage is apparently a good guy in canon, and DC doesn't have alternate timelines outside the 52 universes. Likewise, Constantine also doesn't exist on Earth 16 in the same way, or half the Earth's population would be killed by a human psyche monster due to him killing the guard dog.
As for King Fu Panda/MLP those could exist in the Cartoon Multiverse that the animated DC Multiverse is a part of - you'd just have to broaden your metaphysical distance of travel a bit, but Zoat could also go with there being 52 universes with some replaced.
There is also no proof that MLP/ Kung Fu Panda doesn't exist in the DC universe - the scale of those stories is planetary, and there are so many planets in the universe, that they might just be in unexplored space or the far future. Even in canon, there's large chunks of space that haven't been explored, and the future isn't very well known.
 
Mquz said:
Are you also sure this is the same Silver City? It could be a lesser copy of that. Also, this is an AU fic, with some things similar to the DC universe. Major differences are ok. For one, OL doesn't exist in canon earth 16, Vandal Savage is apparently a good guy in canon, and DC doesn't have alternate timelines outside the 52 universes. Likewise, Constantine also doesn't exist on Earth 16 in the same way, or half the Earth's population would be killed by a human psyche monster due to him killing the guard dog.
As for Kung Fu Panda/MLP those could exist in the Cartoon Multiverse that the animated DC Multiverse is a part of - you'd just have to broaden your metaphysical distance of travel a bit, but Zoat could also go with there being 52 universes with some replaced.
There is also no proof that MLP/ Kung Fu Panda doesn't exist in the DC universe - the scale of those stories is planetary, and there are so many planets in the universe, that they might just be in unexplored space or the far future. Even in canon, there's large chunks of space that haven't been explored, and the future isn't very well known.
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Or he could have traveled to another multiverse altogether.
 
Sorrow said:
I like that Demons are considered to be less of a threat than John Constantine...
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It makes me wonder if he is on the warning sheets of ALL the national heritage sites. Cause let's be honest, if Constantine is showing up to any museum or perserve, shit has probably hit the fan.
 
Hoard (part 4)
  • Threadmarks
    • 11th January
    09:48 GMT

    Hinon taps the transparent hemisphere. "Plastic."

    "The original was glass."

    "An imitation. And not even an accurate one."

    "You… Want them to put an accurate replica of a device that can trap one of the Endless on display to the public?"

    "Don't be absurd. It wouldn't trap one of the Endless unless they walked into it. The magic bound to it is the dangerous part." She turns away from the inverted plastic goldfish bowl. "What does the pamphlet say?"

    "They're going with the 'allegedly' angle. Most of this is about what happened to the people involved, and the pre-Order of Ancient Mysteries history of the building."

    "'Order of Ancient-'… Do you mean to tell me that they were classicists?"

    "On Earth, original magic research is pretty much the provenance of the Atlanteans."

    Hinon squeezes her eyes closed and shakes her head. Not as a 'no', but as if to clear her head of the sheer lunacy of it. "So they read a ritual someone else already wrote?"

    "Probably." Ah…

    "Someone on this planet already knew how to bind the Endless? I… Don't.. Believe…"

    "Has one of the Endless gone missing?"

    "Delight. And Destruction vanished a while ago."

    "And… When they die... Someone else gets the job."

    Daniel. Son of Hector and Hippolyta Hall. I haven't met him, but I saw a picture when I visited his parents' house. Not the new Dream yet. Perhaps never. Or… I don't know. I only read Sandman because Eastbourne library had it, and I doubt that I read all of it. Other things are different to the various comics I've read over the years, why should I assume that Sandman would come through untouched?

    "So in theory the last use might have resulted in the death of the one-."

    "Stop."

    Hinon floats upwards until our faces are level, her right hand coming down hard on my left shoulder. Her eyes are glowing. And… The patterns of orange light inside her are… Shifting, changing in how they relate to one another. I think this is significant, but I don't have a reference framework. Am I seeing her underlying character, bereft of the grandmotherly dust sheet? Or have I just pissed her off this much?

    "Explain how you know any of that."

    I meet her stare. "Either justify that request or say 'please'."

    "I came here because you asked me here."

    "I asked you to come to Earth to check I wasn't leaking. I brought you here because I thought you might find it interesting, and everyone in America won't be up and about for another four hours."

    "Do you know what happens when one of the Endless dies? The sheer.. devastation it wreaks across the universe. I'm old enough to remember when the last Despair died... Hateful.. monster." Her eyes widen slightly as she continues to stare me down. "And I find that this planet has ways to make that happen. And they know it. My species was rendered incapable of dreaming due to a broken love affair, and I can only guess at what the ongoing side effects of that are."

    I frown mildly. "I seem to remember something about him being a dick to his ex-girlfriends."

    "To my species. How our inability has altered the way we think. And no, rather than give me the information I need in order to patch yet another hole in the functioning of this misbegotten universe… You're taking the opportunity to play a game. To remind me that I don't control you as the Guardians control the Green Lanterns."

    "So that's what you want?"

    "Yes. Because every time wiser heads have relinquished control, some idiot brings everything crashing down. I. Want. Control. Not because I wish to control people as an exercise in egotism, but because I want to prevent things like…" She finally released my shoulder, turning away and gesturing to the plastic enclosure with both hands. "Like this. Have you any idea how many people across the galaxy were comatosed, or rendered incapable of sleeping bereft as they are of the exotic protections my own people can use, or simply driven insane by nightmarish visions conjured from the newly ungoverned Dreaming? How many times those nightmares became real, breaking into the material universe to wreak havoc?"

    "Weren't you in a coma yourself-?"

    "I reviewed my laboratory's recordings while we had our first conversation. And I've been going over them ever since. I haven't wanted to push this point since we appeared to be heading in the same direction, but seeing this lunacy has rather pushed me over the edge."

    "I read it in a comic book in my home parallel. Also, 'please' would have been faster."

    "A.. comic..?" Her eyes dim, and her soul structure is once more becalmed. "Why?"

    "You'd have to ask Neil Gaiman's editor. It was written as a work of fiction." I shrug. "My misspent youth as a reader of low-grade wish fulfilment fantasy means that when I actually started interacting with-."

    "We're a work of fiction where you're from? That's what you're saying?"

    "You didn't appear as a named character. But yes. That's how I know about a lot of things."

    "The Anti-Monitor, what do you know of the Anti-Monitor?"

    "DC wanted a way to merge the superheroic setting of the golden age comics of the thirties with the setting of the silver age comics of the fifties. They wrote a storyline where a being empowered by eliminating parallel universes attacked all of their settings, destroying everything and leaving a single universe that was an amalgamation of what had gone before. The Anti-Monitor. Historical events and personal timelines were altered and individuals' memories were rewritten, except that some things didn't quite fit. For some unfortunates, their history changed as they lived it as the universe tried to accommodate irreconcilable events. And some remembered the whole thing, immune to the event which reformed the universe."

    "I take it that's not actually what happened?"

    She takes a deep breath. "A child's fairy story of it. Any number of beings with more knowledge than sense might be allowing corrupted records to slip into your home parallel."

    "So?"

    "So… What do you know about this?"

    "Not a lot. The man who headed the ritual wanted to stop dying and so tried to bind Death. He got Dream, stole his mask, powder and gem and left him here. Dream eventually got out, tracked down his equipment and went back to the Dreaming. Things had fallen apart since he left…" I shake my head. "I know he ended up dying and being replaced by someone called Daniel. I don't think that's happened yet. Might not happen at all."

    "I can only hope. And the ritual itself?"

    "I don't remember it. Everyone who took part is dead now, have been for years. If it was written down as they performed it, then it might still be around somewhere. If they were using a variation on a pre-existing ritual instead then I rather imagine that it's gone."

    "Very well." She raises her hands, orange light strobing around the room. "I will continue to study the site. Go and make yourself useful elsewhere. I'll tell you when I need you."

    I perform a sweeping and not at all sarcastic bow. "Of course, Controller Hinon."
     
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    • Corrupted records my butt since we've seen that multiple multiverses can exist it may just be the records of the universe Multiverse that no longer exist and this might be a different Multiverse we have some similar things in it. Or she's rights in which case that says some very disturbing things like one the anti-monitor is very real and could very well destroy the universe which should really be wearing I mean some other possibilities also exist like necron in the Blackest Night and a bunch of other things.
     
    This may be a bit off point but I believe it was covered in some of the side novels that the only reason why Dream was able to be bond was that he was gravely weakened from fighting some kind of lovecraftian horror and that only the version of him that exists for Humanity was imprisoned.

    I always thought that this made a lot more sense than having it be possible for a ritual conducted by relative amateurs with no major resources to fundamentally change the way that the entire universe works.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    Hinon squeezes her eyes closed and shakes her head. Not as a 'no', but as if to clear her head of the sheer lunacy of it. "So they read a ritual someone else already wrote ?"
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    Extraneous space.

    "Someone on this planet already knew how to bind the Endless? I… Don't.. Believe…"
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    Yes, Earthlings are bullshit Hax. This is not news, surely?

    Am I seeing her underlying character, bereft of the grandmotherly dust sheet? Or have I just pissed her off this much?
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    Why not both, Paul?

    "To my species. How our inability has altered the way we think. And no, rather than give me the information I need in order to patch yet another hole in the functioning of this misbegotten universe… You're taking the opportunity to play a game. To remind me that I don't control you as the Guardians control the Green Lanterns."
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    Yes, a little cruel...

    She finally released my shoulder, turning away and gesturing to the plastic enclosure with both hand.
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    She finally released my shoulder, turning away and gesturing to the plastic enclosure with both hands.

    Have you any idea how many people across the galaxy were comatosed, or rendered incapable...
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    That is a messy conjugation. I understand if it's 'natural speech,' but ouch.

    How many times those nightmare became real, breaking into the material universe to wreak havoc?"
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    How many times those nightmares became real, breaking into the material universe to wreak havoc?"

    "I reviewed my laboratory's recordings while we had our first conversation. And I've been going over them ever since. I haven't wanted to push this point since we appeared to be heading in the same direction, but seeing this lunacy has rather pushed me over the edge."
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    Human 'ingenuity' tends to have that effect on aliens, doesn't it?

    "I read it in a comic book in my home parallel. Also, 'please' would have been faster."
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    And is this the first time he's actually said this to anyone? Revealing the nature of his knowledge to someone this way?

    "We're a work of fiction where you're from? That's what you're saying?"
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    Quite the shock, yes...

    "DC wanted a way to merged the superheroic setting of...
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    "DC wanted a way to merge the superheroic setting of...

    She takes a deep breath. "A child's fairy story of it. Any number of beings with more knowledge than sense might be allowing corrupted records to slip into your home parallel."
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    Huh...

    So, someone knows the full truth. Wonder how long until someone else finds out...
    And concerning implications about the Crisis, and its subsequent aftershocks (Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, etc...)
     
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    Shouldn't Paul know that Delirium is a (corrupted / matured / changed) form of Delight? With Other Endless knowing of this and not considering the change something that could be fought off, avoided or reversed? Or that Destruction willingly abandoned his position to wander Earth, while setting everything into "automatic management mode"?

    By the way, I am still of the opinion that Paul is here because of Delirium's devilish plan to transform herself again out of her current state, either back into Delight or, my personal favorite, into Discovery, governing and embodying change in the status quo and progress of the universe.

    He should also be aware of Hob Gadling, probably the easiest to find way to approach Dream.
     
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