With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Sorrow · May 30, 2020

Darko said:
Zoat said Dox is experimenting to see what makes a good Lantern and Khan had LEGION codes.

Ah, thanks. Must have missed that.

iamnuff · May 30, 2020

Interesting to note that comic King hasn't mentioned anything about the treaty that he and his people are supposedly here to enforce.

Almost like dox didn't actually send him.

Gantradies · May 30, 2020

Cherico said:
this right here is why you keep lex Luthor alive, its time for him to save the human race.

*morosely* you mean time for him to FUCK the human race By creating an existential threat for him to (Fail to and be bailed out by Kal-El) defeat to pump up his ego?

He was working with Darksied/Apocalypse in the OTL...or if my memory is garbled, he was at least actively trading with them...

luthor doesn't give an actual fuck about The state of humanity-he's simply so used to lying about his motivations he's deluded HIMSELF enough that he's rationalised every crime he commits to feed his ego as part of some grand plan so he can keep denying the fact that he's a pretty criminal under his superficial charm/smarts...

if I seem cynical, as OL just pointed out, he refused an offer to go legit with Lantern corps scale support to uplift earth on reflex, and rationalised his refusal as "obviously" realising he was resisting an attempt to mind-control him...

Massgamer · May 30, 2020

I'm starting to wonder if the Light won't make moves against this guy since if he majorly destabilizes the economy and power balance of countries it could go against a lot of their plans.

Whenever Possible · May 30, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Not in my day, heretic.

You're right. Grayven's schtick with arcane mechanisms driving people to find their niche role in broader society while also guiding them along with his conquest, combined with his experience with Equestria and the ~~Ork~~Pony magic of ~~the Waaaaagh~~Friendship, means he'd be the Ork player.

Darko · May 30, 2020

Whenever Possible said:
You're right. Grayven's schtick with arcane mechanisms driving people to find their niche role in broader society while also guiding them along with his conquest, combined with his experience with Equestria and the ~~Ork~~Pony magic of ~~the Waaaaagh~~Friendship, means he'd be the Ork player.

Well he was once called King Tentacle Ogre, so becoming Big Gray Oingy makes sense.

Ace Dreamer · May 30, 2020

BR549 said:
...all I have to say is this: Manga Khan and Wreck-Gar must never, ever meet.

Seeing as Transformers is tied to Marvel (unless that changed when I wasn't looking) and LLMK to DC Comics, odds are we're safe from this. Probably.

I'm curious as to what Mammon thinks of LLMK. Also, I understand Mammon may be an ancient Syrian god, so I assume an 'Old God' in the sense of this story. Makes me wonder how it works if there's both a demon lord and an Old God with the same name, and overlapping areas of power...

(When a new religion takes-over an area there's the question of what to do with the existing gods of the people currently living there. Traditionally, you either made them younger relatives of your god (Thor was originally top god of his pantheon, so he was demoted to being Odin's son), or you turn them into demons, or 'false gods'.)

Darko · May 30, 2020

Ace Dreamer said:
Seeing as Transformers is tied to Marvel (unless that changed when I wasn't looking) and LLMK to DC Comics, odds are we're safe from this. Probably.

I'm curious as to what Mammon thinks of LLMK. Also, I understand Mammon may be an ancient Syrian god, so I assume an 'Old God' in the sense of this story. Makes me wonder how it works if there's both a demon lord and an Old God with the same name, and overlapping areas of power...

Mammon's appears to be a demon in this story and there may not be an Old God named Mammon. Probably people just assumed Mammon was a god and added him to the religion.

Ace Dreamer · May 30, 2020

Darko said:
Mammon's appears to be a demon in this story and there may not be an Old God named Mammon. Probably people just assumed Mammon was a god and added him to the religion.

If a demon acquires enough worshippers, can that turn them into an Old God? Do they then get to move out of Hell, and start buying furnishings for their spanking-new (which has, of course, existed for eternity) after-life?

Idkusername · May 30, 2020

Mr Zoat, has Paul taken up Hades' offer of tying his soul to Erebos?

Darko · May 30, 2020

Ace Dreamer said:
If a demon acquires enough worshippers, can that turn them into an Old God? Do they then get to move out of Hell, and start buying furnishings for their spanking-new (which has, of course, existed for eternity) after-life?

Probably not, though if they did some serious spiritual and arcane surgery...maybe?

Blaze was able to become and Angel, so maybe it's possible for a demon to become a god.

Idkusername said:
Mr Zoat, has Paul taken up Hades' offer of tying his soul to Erebos?

He said he would like to have his Atlantean contacts go over the spell so that there are no problems because of his unique soul, though if he has taken him up on the offer I don't know.

Stsword · May 30, 2020

Ace Dreamer said:
Seeing as Transformers is tied to Marvel (unless that changed when I wasn't looking) and LLMK to DC Comics, odds are we're safe from this. Probably.

I'm curious as to what Mammon thinks of LLMK. Also, I understand Mammon may be an ancient Syrian god, so I assume an 'Old God' in the sense of this story. Makes me wonder how it works if there's both a demon lord and an Old God with the same name, and overlapping areas of power...

(When a new religion takes-over an area there's the question of what to do with the existing gods of the people currently living there. Traditionally, you either made them younger relatives of your god (Thor was originally top god of his pantheon, so he was demoted to being Odin's son), or you turn them into demons, or 'false gods'.)

Being worshipped as a god doesn't make one a god. Constantine's nemesis Nergal was worshipped as a god, still a demon.

And there was almost a Transformers/Justice League crossover, but it fell through.

Mr Zoat · May 30, 2020

Stsword said:
Being worshipped as a god doesn't make one a god. Constantine's nemesis Nergal was worshipped as a god, still a demon.

And there was almost a Transformers/Justice League crossover, but it fell through.

Idkusername · May 31, 2020

Oh my... Looks like Mr Zoat is in danger of breaking his daily streak.

Darko · May 31, 2020

Idkusername said:
Oh my... Looks like Mr Zoat is in danger of breaking his daily streak.

He has on occasion taken up to 10 o clock to update, so I don't think you have to worry.

Mr Zoat · May 31, 2020

Earth 12

8th March 2002
00:42 GMT -7

Um…

Huh.

Roy stands next to me, looking up at where the hole in the sky used to be.

"That's not something you see every day."

He's… Not wrong. I've seen a few strange things since I arrived on this Earth, but 'portals in the sky with giant hands coming out of them' are a new one.

He shrugs, then turns to look at me.

"How'd you wanna handle this?"

"Um. I… Think I'm going to need to call Green Lantern, because that's-."

Another portal opens, this time at ground level. Roy draws his bow and I trigger my Gravity Rod's force shield mode as… Mr Hagen stomps back through.

And then another Mr Hagen stomps through. This one seems more.. sullen? The first glances back at it in apparent irritation as the portal closes behind them.

"Anywhere. We could have gone anywhere. Any time!"

"We're turning over a new leaf and going straight, not pretending it never happened."

The first jabs its mud right hand at the second.

"What the hell happened to you?! No." He pulls his arm back. "No. On second thoughts, don't tell me. If you want to go to prison so much, you go right ahead."

I switch the Gravity Rod to flight mode and rise through the air towards them.

"Excuse me? Mister Hagens?"

Two muddy heads twist in my direction.

"What.. happened?"

The second one straightens up slightly.

"Some ex… Guardian?" I nod. "Named 'Krona' kidnapped a whole lot of different parallel universe versions of you and strapped them to a giant tuning fork. He thought I-." A brief glance at his.. twin? "We were you. Krona lost and everyone got freed."

"Okay. And why are there two of you? Did.. another version of you have the same idea?"

The first Mr Hagen glowers. "He's a copy. I split off a bit of myself to try and escape, and now it's giving me attitude."

"We killed a little girl!"

"We killed a toenail! A little bit of mud!"

"Oh, fuck us! I know you! The only reason you're angry is that you know I'm right!"

"I…" I shake my head. "I don't remember anything about you murdering anyone?"

The second Mr Hagen shakes his head. "We couldn't be charged. There was no record she ever existed. We didn't-. I didn't know she even could be intelligent. She was just supposed to be a… Detachable eye or something. But she wasn't. When I got intelligent I realised there was no reason why she couldn't have gotten intelligent in the same way."

"Okay. Maybe. But, one, we don't know that she was, and two, she chose to merge with us."

"Yeah, because we were beating on Robin and she wanted us to stop! I know how we justified it ourselves because I'm us! And I also know that it's bullshit!"

"Clearly-" I raise my hands to get their attention. "-the two of you disagree on this, but I'm not hearing anything actionable. What do the two of you want to get out of this situation? Where do you want to go from here?"

"Prison."

Mr Hagen Two is very definite. One hesitates for a few moments.

"If that deal's still on the table, I'll take it. But not for murder."

"From the sound of it, it wasn't murder. You didn't plan to kill someone you knew to be a living person. But the decision on what to charge you with will be up to the district attorney."

If the two of them can be charged. I'm not sure that American law was designed to deal with mitosis.

"I don't care what it technically was." Two returns his attention to One. "She was clay from our body you bastard!"

"The two of you are going to have years to talk out your differences. Is there anything you need to discuss, or can you just separate so I can call in the submarine?"

"Yeah." Hagen One shrinks down slightly, making an effort to humanise his exterior as he does so. "Yeah, I'm ready to get out of here."

"You don't get it." Two shakes his head, clearly disgusted. "You just don't get it."

"Yeah, well, what you gunna do?"

"This."

Hagen Two dives-

"No no NO!"

A freeze-arrow hits him mid-dive, covering about two-thirds of him in ice and.. probably freezing a lot of his mud solid. But not enough. His tendrils lash out as One tries to back away, latching on and merging with him!

"I don't wanna be you! Get outta meaaaaaaagggghhh!"

He loses his human shape, the two masses of clay being sucked together, merging and intertwining until there's no distinction but the occasional… Silently screaming face bubbling to the surface.

"What… The…"

Jade taps Roy on his right shoulder as he slowly lowers his bow.

"We should leave."

I float away from the clay mass, making sure that I can throw up a force field if it moves in this direction.

"We should back up, certainly."

Barbara's already shimmying up a wall and Jade swiftly sprints to a position of concealment. Roy backs up more slowly as two, four, eight hands emerge from the clay and grasp the screaming heads, pushing and pulling and ripping at them. He loads three more freeze arrows, but he doesn't exactly look confident.

I.. know how he feels.

"Got anyone else you can call?"

I level the Gravity Rod and keep my thumb over the force blast button.

"No one who can get here quickly."

"NNRRRAAAAAGHHH!"

The mud mass bursts, throwing damp clay in all directions! Shieldshieldshield!

Okay, blocked it, then… Shake off and deactivate.

"Um. Excuse me?"

Mr Hagen… One Mr Hagen, is face down and unmoving, the clay of his body surrounded by mounds of discarded clay. And standing next to him is a small girl who's looking around with no idea what's happening.

"What's going on? Where.. am I?"

Flux Casey · May 31, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Mr Hagen… One Mr Hagen, is face down and unmoving, the clay of his body surrounded by mounds of discarded clay. And standing next to him is a small girl who's looking around with no idea what's happening.

... Did he just kill himselves to remake the girl?

... Damn. Respect.

jaelin910 · May 31, 2020

I wonder what Robin's going to think....

Idkusername · May 31, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"What's going on? Where.. am I?"

Oh my. Is that even possible? Wouldn't Clayface have been able to access her memories if he'd kept her intact? Otherwise she's functionally a new entity.

Oh, and I guess I have to eat my words now.

Darko · May 31, 2020

'to me' not 'to be'

'meiosis' not 'meiosis" '

Is Peter going to adopt her?

Did Hagen Two survive this?

Darko · May 31, 2020

jaelin910 said:
I wonder what Robin's going to think....

Best father in law ever maybe.

Assuming Peter adopts her and Tim and her become a thing.

iamnuff · May 31, 2020

And he seemed so determined to go to prison.

What a pity. Instead of making up for his sins, he chose to commit murder again.

rkyeun · May 31, 2020

iamnuff said:
And he seemed so determined to go to prison.
What a pity. Instead of making up for his sins, he chose to commit murder again.

Or possibly, he atoned by committing suicide.
I'm really not sure how to count identity here. If they're not the same person, then they can't both be the killer. If they are the same person, then they shouldn't disagr-- well no, I can't say that, I disagree with myself all the time. If they are the same person, then none of them, not even Annie, can be said to have died. Even if she is back now. So... maybe none of them are dead. Maybe none of them CAN die. Nothing works to kill Clayface. Apparently not even absorption by Clayface.

Darko · May 31, 2020

iamnuff said:
And he seemed so determined to go to prison.

What a pity. Instead of making up for his sins, he chose to commit murder again.

Hopefully he's still alive and just incapacitated now and maybe Hagen One is also alive and incapacitated now.

Even if they're both not, a little girl will get to live her life at least.

Mr Zoat · May 31, 2020

Darko said:
'to me' not 'to be'

'meiosis' not 'meiosis" '

Thank you, corrected.

Is Peter going to adopt her?

No.

Did Hagen Two survive this?

Define 'survive'.

RichardWhereat · May 31, 2020

Idkusername said:
Oh, and I guess I have to eat my words now.

Never do that without HP Barbecue Sauce.

w34v3r · May 31, 2020

... Did we get lost in the dimensional shuffle and end up in an episode of ghost in the shell by mistake?

Darko · May 31, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

No.

Define 'survive'.

Can you give us a future update on what happens to Annie?

Survive as in will he be able to pull himself back together again to resume his life and be able interact with the world, rather than just remain a bunch of unresponsive lumps of clay that lack an intelligence behind them.

Idkusername · May 31, 2020

RichardWhereat said:
Never do that without HP Barbecue Sauce.

Ha! Weak!

You fall against the Superior Worcestershire Sauce!

Chojin Patriarch · May 31, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
Earth 12

8th March 2002
00:42 GMT -7

Oh-ho, Clayface and Clayling returning from their little adventure? Here we go!

Um…

Huh.

And it appears to be moments after Clayface got snatched, back in Covert Community part two.

Roy stands next to be, looking up at where the hole in the sky used to be.

"That's not something you see every day."

No, just every five to ten real-time years, whenever DC needs to shake up continuity...

He's… Not wrong. I've seen a few strange things since I arrived on this Earth, but 'portals in the sky with giant hands coming out of them' are a new one.

He shrugs, then turns to look at me.

"How'd you wanna handle this?"

Well, Peter here is the boss. But...

"Um. I… Think I'm going to need to call Green Lantern, because that's-."

Another portal opens, this time at ground level. Roy draws his bow and I trigger my Gravity Rod's force shield mode as… Mr Hagen stomps back through.

...Ah, problem solved.

And then another Mr Hagen stomps through. This one seems more.. sullen? The first glances back at it in apparent irritation as the portal closes behind them.

"Anywhere. We could have gone anywhere. Any time!"

And problem doubled. Boy, this day just got extra weird for them.

"We're turning over a new leaf and going straight, not pretending it never happened."

The first jabs its mud right hand at the second.

"What the hell happened to you?! No." He pulls his arm back. "No. On second thoughts, don't tell me. If you want to go to prison so much, you go right ahead."

And that makes it clear which Clayface is the original, and which is the more empathetic Clayling. That would be One and Two respectively.

I switch the Gravity Rod to flight mode and rise through the air towards them.

"Excuse me? Mister Hagens?"

Boy, is he going to have questions.

Two muddy heads twist in my direction.

"What.. happened?"

Starting with the big one, huh?

The second one straightens up slightly.

"Some ex… Guardian?" I nod. "Named 'Krona' kidnapped a whole lot of different parallel universe versions of you and strapped them to a giant tuning fork. He thought I-." A brief glance at his.. twin? "We were you. Krona lost and everyone got freed."

And Peter has a slight 'oh crap' moment as he realises the bullet he dodged.

"Okay. And why are there two of you? Did.. another version of you have the same idea?"

The first Mr Hagen glowers. "He's a copy. I split off a bit of myself to try and escape, and now it's giving me attitude."

No, he got a conscience. I know it's been a long time since yours had any reaction.

"We killed a little girl!"

"We killed a toenail! A little bit of mud!"

You know, if you honestly believed that, then the other you wouldn't feel any differently...

"Oh, fuck us! I know you! The only reason you're angry is that you know I'm right!"

"I…" I shake my head. "I don't remember anything about you murdering anyone?"

Ah, if only he still had Ring charge, for that assisted eidetic memory...

The second Mr Hagen shakes his head. "We couldn't be charged. There was no record she ever existed. We didn't-. I didn't know she even could be intelligent. She was just supposed to be a… Detachable eye or something. But she wasn't. When I got intelligent I realised there was no reason why she couldn't have gotten intelligent in the same way."

Very reasonable, very logical. And Clayface is just going to keep ignoring that little voice saying 'maybe he's right?'...

"Okay. Maybe. But, one, we don't know that she was, and two, she chose to merge with us."

"Yeah, because we were beating on Robin and she wanted us to stop! I know how we justified it ourselves because I'm us! And I also know that it's bullshit!"

The joy of reflecting on matters. Clayface never bothered to think about it, no matter how it may have bothered him.

"Clearly-" I raise my hands to get their attention. "-the two of you disagree on this, but I'm not hearing anything actionable. What do the two of you want to get out of this situation? Where do you want to go from here?"

"Prison."

Clayling's really being firm about this, isn't he? I wonder how much of those foundation impulses Clayface gave him back when they split are still ticking away?

Mr Hagen Two is very definite. One hesitates for a few moments.

"If that deal's still on the table, I'll take it. But not for murder."

If you haven't reread the previous scene by now, that was a deal for as little jail-time as possible, then working for Wynn in hopes of developing a cure.

"From the sound of it, it wasn't murder. You didn't plan to kill someone you knew to be a living person. But the decision on what to charge you with will be up to the district attorney."

If the two of them can be charged. I'm not sure that American law was designed to deal with meiosis.

Superhero universe. I would not be surprised if something similar has happened, somewhere in the depths of DC's archives.

"I don't care what it technically was." Two returns his attention to One. "She was clay from our body you bastard!"

"The two of you are going to have years to talk out your differences. Is there anything you need to discuss, or can you just separate so I can call in the submarine?"

Like talking to toddlers...

"Yeah." Hagen One shrinks down slightly, making an effort to humanise his exterior as he does so. "Yeah, I'm ready to get out of here."

"You don't get it." Two shakes his head, clearly disgusted. "You just don't get it."

Oh, dear. Is he planning something?

"Yeah, well, what you gunna do?"

"This."

And there we go. Hopefully there'll be something left of them after whatever's coming.

Hagen Two dives-

"No no NO!"

A freeze-arrow hits him mid-dive, covering about two-thirds of him in ice and.. probably freezing a lot of his mud solid. But not enough. His tendrils lash out as One tries to back away, latching on and merging with him!

Oh, my. Forced recombination... I wonder who's going to come out on top, figuratively speaking...

"I don't wanna be you! Get outta meaaaaaaagggghhh!"

He loses his human shape, the two masses of clay being sucked together, merging and intertwining until there's no distinction but the occasional… Silently screaming face bubbling to the surface.

Yeah, you squishy humans might want to step back for this...

"What… The…"

Jade taps Roy on his right shoulder as he slowly lowers his bow.

"We should leave."

If only to avoid the splash zone.

I float away from the clay mass, making sure that I can throw up a force field if it moves in this direction.

"We should back up, certainly."

Gee, now we see why he's in charge.

Barbara's already shimmying up a wall and Jade swiftly sprints to a position of concealment. Roy backs up more slowly as two, four, eight hands emerge from the clay and grasp the screaming heads, pushing and pulling and ripping at them. He loads three more freeze arrows, but he doesn't exactly look confident.

I.. know how he feels.

Not quite the kind of mud-wrestling he'd enjoy watching, sure.

"Got anyone else you can call?"

I level the Gravity Rod and keep my thumb over the force blast button.

"No one who can get here quickly."

Hoo boy. Joy of running a private black op.

"NNRRRAAAAAGHHH!"

The mud mass bursts, throwing damp clay in all directions! Shieldshieldshield!

Boy, if he had a ring, this would have been much easier. But a Cosmic Converter Rod is a close second.

Okay, blocked it, then… Shake off and deactivate.

"Um. Excuse me?"

I see he's fast on the controls, though. Did he think to include his team, or are there some clay-covered ladies next to him?

Mr Hagen… One Mr Hagen, is face down and unmoving, the clay of his body surrounded by mounds of discarded clay. And standing next to him is a small girl who's looking around with no idea what's happening.

"What's going on? Where.. am I?"

Huh... So, Clayling sacrificed himself to rebuild Annie's memories and make a new body... The question is who's in Matt Hagen's body now?

This is one I'd like to see more of, if only to find out what happens next. Is Clayface still conscious (alive is hard to define for them, certainly), or is the Matt Hagen form host to Clayling? What will happen to Annie? I suppose if enough people ask, Mr Zoat will let us know... Meanwhile, back to the Manga Khan and Lex show...

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Getting sticky.

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I trust you know where the happy button is?

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Questioning The Nature of our Realities

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The Colonel

habitual lurker

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Aia airëa Fëanáro.

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