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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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rkyeun said:
Or possibly, he atoned by committing suicide.
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Still murder.

Mr Hagen (#2) was very very clear that they are both fully realised people.
That's why he was so distraught. Because he realised that if the split-off parts are real people, then absorbing one and destroying it's mind/thoughts is murder.

So both Mr Hagen's are real people, which means that what happened at the end of the last update was a Murder-Suicide.
 
I can't recall the last Peter chapter in detail so what's Roy doing here? Even if he isn't a part of the League his mentor is. So why would Peter bring him along on one of his recruitment missions? I thought he had no dealings with the League until 'the Batman incident'?
 
Agent Orange said:
I can't recall the last Peter chapter in detail so what's Roy doing here? Even if he isn't a part of the League his mentor is. So why would Peter bring him along on one of his recruitment missions? I thought he had no dealings with the League until 'the Batman incident'?
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Roy may be working with Jade as some kind of heroic mercenary and Peter hired them to help him free Hagen.

Peter may not deal with the League but he does deal with supervillains and superheroes so maybe that's how they met.
 
PDV said:
Renegade Lex is just as paranoid; moreso, probably. He internally refers to Grayven as "the second alien".



Given the events of Winter Soldier, Cap was obviously correct. Do not give intrusive oversight powers including detailed secret identity info to an organization which is easily subverted by supervillains. And given that SHIELD was controlled by supervillains from the start, that should include literally every government organization.

In the comics version, almost everyone was on Team Cap, even including Iron Man. Tony Stark thought the imposition of oversight was unavoidable and championed it in a (ultimately successful) attempt to be put in charge and therefore able to shield his friends from the negative effects. He has explicitly stated this 'onscreen'.
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the issue is that team Pro-Reg went FUCKING PSYCHOTIC from almost the moment the Registration act was publicly announced/considered- there was an attempt to execute Rogers in cold blood by.. what was her name again, that psycho lady running shield at the time (Hill i think? Fury's Bargin-bin/crazy replacement?) for saying he wouldn't start illegally dragging his friends off to exodimensional gitmo BEFORE the act was passed-

after an outright attempt to murder him for refusing to break the law/follow an order he considered immoral (and one that at the time, was literally illegal), is it any surprise at all he went into following events expecting another attempt on his life from his former "friends"?

and the prison in question-
a prison in a location that due to skewed/different underlying laws of reality outright causes permanent/long-term neurological damage from mere exposure-a prison which primarily housed people who's only "crime" was not trusting the US government with detailed information on their identities (in a setting with literal mindreading/shapeshifting doppelgangers/multiple psychopathic AI on the loose) when they had enemies capable of hacking/hiring a hacker to search the database,
who could and WOULD murder them/their family with the slightest opportunity...

add in the fact that almost none of the writers/editors were communicating/coordinating, and........
im trying to remember the entire list- the original comic storyline wasn't just shit, it was COMICALLY badly written to the point the whole thing disintegrates into nonsense with even moderate scrutiny to the plot/events- i was legitimately impressed they got something remotely comprehensible from that starting point with the MCU...


i cant remember where, but someone did a writeup on how....... bent, Anthony Stark's decision making was acting during the storyline a few years back-

and came to the conclusion that he'd been exposed to a personality/morality-flip effect that turned him into an evil/amoral psychopath during a storyline shortly before Civil war- fairly common superhero fare, happens to almost everyone at least once- and after a careful analysis to the on-page events, concluded he was never ACTUALLY cured..
 
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Gantradies said:
the issue is that team Pro-Reg went FUCKING PSYCHOTIC from almost the moment the Registration act was publicly announced/considered- there was an attempt to execute Rogers in cold blood by.. what was her name again, that psycho lady running shield at the time (Hill i think? Fury's Bargin-bin/crazy replacement?) for saying he wouldn't start illegally dragging his friends off to exodimensional gitmo BEFORE the act was passed-
a prison in a location that due to skewed/different underlying laws of reality outright causes perminent/long-term neurological damage from mere exposure-a prison which primarily housed people who's only "crime" was not trusting the US government with detailed information on their identities (in a setting with literal mindreading/shapeshifting doppelgangers/multiple psychopathic AI on the loose) when they had enemies capable of hacking/hiring a hacker to search the database,
who could and WOULD murder them/their family with the slightest opportunity...

im trying to remember the entire list- the original comic storyline wasn't just shit, it was COMICALLY badly written to the point the whole thing disintegrates into nonsense with even moderate scrutiny to the plot/events- i was legitimately impressed they got something remotely comprehensible from that starting point with the MCU...


i cant remember where, but someone did a writeup on how....... bent, Anthony Stark's decision making was acting during the storyline a few years back-

and came to the conclusion that he'd been exposed to a personality/morality-flip effect that turned him into an evil/amoral psychopath during a storyline shortly before Civil war- fairly common superhero fare, happens to almost everyone at least once- and after a careful analysis to the on-page events, concluded he was never ACTUALLY cured..
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Once read a fic on Ff.net called 'A View From The Armchair' in which Loki was apparently the one that caused the entire Civil War and manipulated basically everyone into doing that.

The author of that fic also wrote another one, can't remember the name, where Magneto frees all the mutants imprisoned in the camps by the Act and gets a loyal army to follow him, after he kills Iron Man and the freed mutants kill Captain Marvel.
 
Darko said:
Can you give us a future update on what happens to Annie?
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No, because I haven't thought about it. Feel free to come up with your own ideas.
Survive as in will he be able to pull himself back together again to resume his life and be able interact with the world, rather than just remain a bunch of unresponsive lumps of clay that lack an intelligence behind them.
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They are now one individual.
Handlewithcare said:
Also, I think you mitosis. Meiosis means producing egg/sperm cells.
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Thank you, corrected.
Darko said:
The author of that fic also wrote another one, can't remember the name, where Magneto frees all the mutants imprisoned in the camps by the Act and gets a loyal army to follow him, after he kills Iron Man and the freed mutants kill Captain Marvel.
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What, all hundred of them? Wasn't that after most mutants lost their powers due to Scarlet Witch?
 
Mr Zoat said:
No, because I haven't thought about it. Feel free to come up with your own ideas.

They are now one individual.

Thank you, corrected.

What, all hundred of them? Wasn't that after most mutants lost their powers due to Scarlet Witch?
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Either Annie reunites with Tim and gets taken in by Bruce seems like a good bet, or maybe Roy and Jade decide to adopt her I guess.

Either the author decided to have that incident not happen in his universe, or they somehow got their powers back.

I think he was basically trying to show how something like the Act can be godsend to someone like Magneto, someone who has been trying for years to tell other mutants that humans will treat them like animals if they don't fight back.
 
Alternate interpretation: this wasn't murder or suicide because nobody actually died.

When Clayface split off a copy of himself, what he seems to have really done is make a second instance of himself. That is, both of them were him and his 'self' comprised of multiple individuals. This isn't a problem we experience in our universe, (yet) but I'd argue that it is how reality literally works in this instance. We aren't bodies, because what constitutes part of our body is constantly changing and in order to have a consistent identity we'd have to make arbitrary rules about what counted as parts of us with no real basis in reality. We aren't brains because all of the above is true of our brains, and because the brain is just a structure that can (with sufficiently advanced technology) be copied perfectly. We're the pattern, which runs on our brains, which makes us, us. And if you copy a pattern, you haven't made a new pattern. You've just made another instance of the same thing.

This is particularly true for Mr. Hagen. His body is entirely amorphous and can consist of any amount of anything he identifies as being sufficiently clay-like, so his identity cannot be tied to a body. He isn't a brain because he literally doesn't have one. He's just a self-aware pattern capable of propagating itself through certain kinds of matter. An instance of him still exists at the end of this chapter, his pattern is sustained. He therefore did not die and cannot be said to have murdered or committed suicide. He just merged two instances of himself and recreated a being he had temporarily, accidentally, destroyed.

Now, since one instance of him did not want to merge, it could be argued the other committed assault, rape, or mind rape in increasing order of severity depending on what that process entails. But since the assault was committed on himself it was really just fantastic self-harm. As a result, the only thing a court should sentence him to now is therapy, to reduce the likelihood of something like this happening in the future.
 
my reading is Hagan2/saneHagan realized that his template was too deep in denial about having accidentally become a serial/child killer
(given how quickly/easily he made "probes" im suspecting that he has made,and killed -quite- a few by this point) to be snapped back to reality/talked down without violence-
and was likely to attempt to kill HIM at the first opportunity ("it isnt a person! just a broken robot that can help the authorities imprison me for crimes i haven't committed *absentmindedly launches a potentially-lethal blow at a minor/teenager*- im a asshole sure but id never kill someone so ive never killed someone so i have to reabsorb this thing before it gets me locked up for a bullshit murder!")r
- he went to extreme lengths to reabsorb the poor "probe" in canon, to the point of actively seeking conflict with affiliates of the justice league/threatening/attempting lethal force against said third party...
and given he was fully willing to keep creating and murdering said "probes" for the rest of his life (as abandoning the technique would mean considered that he'd been essentially killing children/his duplicates for years/decades which he was frantically denying both consciously and subconsciously...),and the hefty portion of irrational guilt/self-loathing the second Hagan was struggling with, well....
 
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Ah. Fun.
There was a time when I considered something like gross memory manipulation to be murder-lite. Then I considered how much I forget and invent constantly, and right now I don't consider identity to be a real thing, intellectually.
That being said, I value several non-real and ephemeral things very highly.
 
iamnuff said:
Still murder.

Mr Hagen (#2) was very very clear that they are both fully realised people.
That's why he was so distraught. Because he realised that if the split-off parts are real people, then absorbing one and destroying it's mind/thoughts is murder.

So both Mr Hagen's are real people, which means that what happened at the end of the last update was a Murder-Suicide.
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Or put simply:

"Cool motive, still murder."
 
Mr Zoat said:
Earth 12

8th March 2002
00:42 GMT -7
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They are going to need so much therapy. However many of them there ends up being.

Flux Casey said:
... Did he just kill himselves to remake the girl?
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I will not accept that either Hagen is dead until they have thoroughly examined the body, the mud and the mind of the girl.
And possibly until they have tracked down at least one soul and confirmed that it is in an afterlife.
 
WereDragon said:
And possibly until they have tracked down at least one soul and confirmed that it is in an afterlife.
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If I understand how this story works, correctly, take enough raw magic that flows out of the Dreaming and you can copy-paste souls... So, the soul is information, the pattern, which gets to interact with an afterlife because of the magical structure that it's imprinted on...
 
Are Roy and Jade in a relationship here? Based on the way he talked about her in that first chapter so cordially I thought they'd be in a relationship and Roy would be a bit more on edge since Jade hasn't returned yet?
 
Doccer said:
Are Roy and Jade in a relationship here? Based on the way he talked about her in that first chapter so cordially I thought they'd be in a relationship and Roy would be a bit more on edge since Jade hasn't returned yet?
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Yeah they are and Jade is pregnant.

This version of Jade wasn't taken, it was just Clayface pretending to be Peter.
 
Doccer said:
Then what was acquired?
I assumed it got Jade first then 'Peter' as he came out to open air?
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Hagen took on Peter's form and was mistaken for being him by Krona.

Why Hagen did this is anyone's guess, maybe he didn't trust Peter all that much and somehow thought giant blue hand was a better option.

Krona didn't get that Jade as when the rift opened he just took Hagen, maybe he didn't need anymore Jades by that point.

Why Krona didn't know Peter wasn't Peter is beyond me.
 
Darko said:
Hagen took on Peter's form and was mistaken for being him by Krona.

Why Hagen did this is anyone's guess, maybe he didn't trust Peter all that much and somehow thought giant blue hand was a better option.

Krona didn't get that Jade as when the rift opened he just took Hagen, maybe he didn't need anymore Jades by that point.

Why Krona didn't know Peter wasn't Peter is beyond me.
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The easy one with a rich Peter there that isn't a villain thing would be to have him fired to be a body double for something when it happens.
 
Darko said:
Hagen took on Peter's form and was mistaken for being him by Krona.

Why Hagen did this is anyone's guess, maybe he didn't trust Peter all that much and somehow thought giant blue hand was a better option.

Krona didn't get that Jade as when the rift opened he just took Hagen, maybe he didn't need anymore Jades by that point.

Why Krona didn't know Peter wasn't Peter is beyond me.
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I knew that, that's why I put the name Peter in quotation marks. What I asked is if not Jade then who did it mean when it said acquisition successful? It couldn't mean Peter or 'Peter' as it said it was looking for Peter after acquisition successful! So who was the successful acquisition?
 
Doccer said:
I knew that, that's why I put the name Peter in quotation marks. What I asked is if not Jade then who did it mean when it said acquisition successful? It couldn't mean Peter or 'Peter' as it said it was looking for Peter after acquisition successful! So who was the successful acquisition?
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Maybe Krona just said that before he grabbed someone that one time.

The Jade of that universe was probably not taken as Roy didn't seem upset or anything that the mother of his child wasn't there.
 
Darko said:
Hagen took on Peter's form and was mistaken for being him by Krona.

Why Hagen did this is anyone's guess, maybe he didn't trust Peter all that much and somehow thought giant blue hand was a better option.

Krona didn't get that Jade as when the rift opened he just took Hagen, maybe he didn't need anymore Jades by that point.

Why Krona didn't know Peter wasn't Peter is beyond me.
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i think it was an act of impulsive stupidity on his own end-
the section from his POV had him internally screaming "why did i do that oh god im so screwed i should have taken the deal it'd have just been a little jailtime and he was talking about possibly giving me a job where i wouldn't be shot at afterwards oh god oh god im dead when this idiot realizes im not the real Peter!"
 
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so we got another paul with an adopted daughter now?

Welcome back Annie
latest
 
I've just had a revelation...

Does Paul wear his ring on his left finger because he's left handed???
 
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