With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

So...

I assume he somehow murdered both Cauldron and the Protectorate at this point? Because that's the only way they wouldn't be fighting with everything they have to keep him out of the Nilbog quarantine zone.

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I think he could have just teleported into the zone, instead of just walking in there by foot.

 

[Vaermina]

I think he could have just teleported into the zone, instead of just walking in there by foot.

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Cauldron would have stopped him.

Even if it took portaling a bunch of Bakuda's timestop bombs onto the place.

Remember, they literally have the best precogs in existence working for them, the ability to remotely view anything, and the ability to portal anything anywhere.

 

[Sorrow]

I've been wondering, is Earth Bet/Worm just the version Earth of the Universe that Lord Protector finds himself in? Or did he have to transfer dimensions?

 

[Mr Zoat]

The question is, how long ago does a mass killing have to happen before it's purely historical? A few episodes ago we had a tribe in Brazil who considered the Brazilian government to be Portuguese collaborators despite the killing happening centuries ago. Here, we have Lord Protector talking to the inhabitants of a town whose previous inhabitants they killed a few years ago. Lord Protector himself is the ruler of both cats and lizards who have killed the others' people, military and civilian. Obviously we don't draw the line at any point within the last twenty years, but other than that, when?

 

[l---erddad---l]

The question is, how long ago does a mass killing have to happen before it's purely historical? A few episodes ago we had a tribe in Brazil who considered the Brazilian government to be Portuguese collaborators despite the killing happening centuries ago. Here, we have Lord Protector talking to the inhabitants of a town whose previous inhabitants they killed a few years ago. Lord Protector himself is the ruler of both cats and lizards who have killed the others' people, military and civilian. Obviously we don't draw the line at any point within the last twenty years, but other than that, when?

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I think it has to do with transition of power. Generally speaking, it's not considered fair to perfectly ascribe crimes to people who didn't commit them but they can be partially ascribed if you benefited from the crimes (hence holding Americans mildly responsible for everything that happened with the indigenous tribes even tho we weren't there), but I think it's a bunch of gray areas past the transition of power from one generation to the next. I think in this case it most definitely isn't, because it's the same guy who did it. The crime is something he did personally, so even if you can't blame his children for it, you can still blame him.

I mean, personally I think this is an entirely Paul thing to do. Nilbog isn't going to harm anyone if he's left alone AND has what he needs to prosper. This includes needing food for his creations. Then, Paul can get work out of something that was a threat beforehand, and also neutralize the threat. Maybe not the generally accepted as moral thing to do, since humans are all about retribution, but I think it's the utilitarian thing to do.

 

[Aeess]

I mean you could argue that Nilbog is a rapist/pedophile since he's having sex with his creations and it's debatable how much they can consent. Not to mention that he has them eat each other(though he does not really have an alternative). So I am not sure you could say that he isn't harming anyone at the moment.

Overall I consider dealing with him rather morally questionable unless truly necessary.

 

[Assblaster5000]

Huh, was actually right? Are people genuinely not going to argue about a work of fiction beyond the semantics of a single word?

...

I wasn't aware I'd stepped into The Twilight Zone.

 

[Vaermina]

I think it has to do with transition of power. Generally speaking, it's not considered fair to perfectly ascribe crimes to people who didn't commit them but they can be partially ascribed if you benefited from the crimes (hence holding Americans mildly responsible for everything that happened with the indigenous tribes even tho we weren't there), but I think it's a bunch of gray areas past the transition of power from one generation to the next. I think in this case it most definitely isn't, because it's the same guy who did it. The crime is something he did personally, so even if you can't blame his children for it, you can still blame him.

I mean, personally I think this is an entirely Paul thing to do. Nilbog isn't going to harm anyone if he's left alone AND has what he needs to prosper. This includes needing food for his creations. Then, Paul can get work out of something that was a threat beforehand, and also neutralize the threat. Maybe not the generally accepted as moral thing to do, since humans are all about retribution, but I think it's the utilitarian thing to do.

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Nilbog is insane and has the functional mentality of a human child.

Anything Paul does with him is the equivalent of hitting a tanker truck full of unstable nitroglycerin with a sledge hammer.

 

[Assblaster5000]

Never mind then, hello once again Earth, how I missed you for those short few moments.

At least I don't have to worry about a child willing me out of existence anymore.

 

[Darko]

Cauldron would have stopped him.

Even if it took portaling a bunch of Bakuda's timestop bombs onto the place.

Remember, they literally have the best precogs in existence working for them, the ability to remotely view anything, and the ability to portal anything anywhere.

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That's assuming they can actually view him, precog him, or move him anywhere.

He has advanced tech and magic, probably even added something like the paragons tattoos, so it's possible they can't even see him right now. And Lisa passed out after seeing him so he may somehow be resistant to such powers.

Even if they are capable of viewing him, they may not want to interfere because they may like to see how he works and his modus operandi.

And before you say that this doesn't make sense remember that they did do a lot of weird shit in canon that didn't make much sense.

I think it has to do with transition of power. Generally speaking, it's not considered fair to perfectly ascribe crimes to people who didn't commit them but they can be partially ascribed if you benefited from the crimes (hence holding Americans mildly responsible for everything that happened with the indigenous tribes even tho we weren't there), but I think it's a bunch of gray areas past the transition of power from one generation to the next. I think in this case it most definitely isn't, because it's the same guy who did it. The crime is something he did personally, so even if you can't blame his children for it, you can still blame him.

I mean, personally I think this is an entirely Paul thing to do. Nilbog isn't going to harm anyone if he's left alone AND has what he needs to prosper. This includes needing food for his creations. Then, Paul can get work out of something that was a threat beforehand, and also neutralize the threat. Maybe not the generally accepted as moral thing to do, since humans are all about retribution, but I think it's the utilitarian thing to do.

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Good answer on why Nilbog should be blamed and held accountable for his actions.

This Paul may be trying out paragons whole rehabilitation thing.

Nilbog is a fairly powerful biomancer, so maybe LP is trying to get him to use his powers for something more productive.

 

[Lurking Shade]

Nilbog is insane and has the functional mentality of a human child.

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Nilbog wasn't insane and childlike when he started. That was attributed to him spending over a decade with no contact with anyone except for yes men who worshiped him as a god.

 

[Darko]

Nilbog wasn't insane and childlike when he started. That was attributed to him spending over a decade with no contact with anyone except for yes men who worshiped him as a god.

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Even if he was not insane and childlike when he started, which is debatable seeing as what he did to that city and its inhabitants is not exactly the mark of a sane man, now he is very much insane and childlike.

 

[Lurking Shade]

Even if he was not insane and childlike when he started, which is debatable seeing as what he did to that city and its inhabitants is not exactly the mark of a sane man, now he is very much insane and childlike.

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His power basically went to his head. He was a loner theorized to have gotten his powers as a result of losing his job as a banker and having no way to pay off the bills he had piling up when he couldn't find a new job quickly.

His extermination of the town was pretty methodically and thought out, he didn't just brute force zerg rush it.

 

[Darko]

His power basically went to his head. He was a loner theorized to have gotten his powers as a result of losing his job as a banker and having no way to pay off the bills he had piling up when he couldn't find a new job quickly.

WoG went into the specifics of how he wiped out the town and he was pretty methodical in his extermination, not just relying on brute force and numbers.

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That still doesn't exactly disprove the possibility that he was insane during that time.

It may disprove the possibility that he was childlike during that time, and even that's not a guarantee, but not the insanity thing.

Now however he very much is insane and childlike.

 

[Darko]

I mean you could argue that Nilbog is a rapist/pedophile since he's having sex with his creations and it's debatable how much they can consent. Not to mention that he has them eat each other(though he does not really have an alternative). So I am not sure you could say that he isn't harming anyone at the moment.

Overall I consider dealing with him rather morally questionable unless truly necessary.

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I... don't think Nilbog did these things in Worm.

I could be wrong as it's been some time since I read Worm, but I think you may be thinking of that guy from Rick and Morty who Beth trapped in that place Rick made for her so she doesn't kill other children.

 

[l---erddad---l]

After they die he reuses their biomaterial, but there's nothing aside from pessimism that says that he had sex with his creations. It seems like he saw them as pseudo-children subjects of his kingdom.

 

[Darko]

After they die he reuses their biomaterial, but there's nothing aside from pessimism that says that he had sex with his creations. It seems like he saw them as pseudo-children subjects of his kingdom.

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Yeah I think he mistook Nilbog for that guy from Rick and Morty.

 

[Aeess]

I... don't think Nilbog did these things in Worm.

I could be wrong as it's been some time since I read Worm, but I think you may be thinking of that guy from Rick and Morty who Beth trapped in that place Rick made for her so she doesn't kill other children.

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No he definitely did that, here look
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/sting-26-4/

"Then I guess I have to get to the heart of it all. Direct."
"Yes," Nilbog said. He leaned forward, and I feared the table would break.
"Were you happy, before any of us came here?"
"Yes. I can eat the most delicious foods, yet get every nutrient I need. I can fuck the most beautiful and exotic women you'd ever imagine, whenever I wish. Every need is provided for a hundred times over, and I'm surrounded by those who love me."
"Then why change? Why do anything? Let us leave, then return to your utopia."
Nilbog nodded. He rubbed at his chin, but the act was like pushing one's hand into jello. It shifted the mass more than it rubbed.
"You wanted a tie breaker?" Golem asked. "This is it. Do what Weaver is saying. Do what the Queen is suggesting. Stay quiet, enjoy what you've built here. Attack, and the entire world will take it away. Then, even if you're strong enough to survive that, which you may be, then Jack will still betray you."
"Or," Jack said, "You can stop lying to yourself."
Nilbog snapped his head around. He growled, "Impertinent."
"Your people are slowly starving. You make them eat each other to live, and desperately attempt to shoot any birds out of the sky so you can try to recoup what you lose. Bonesaw said they don't live long. How long?"
"Four years. Sometimes five." All at once, the light was gone from Nilbog's face, the sudden fury quenched.
"Who's your favorite?" Jack asked.
"Polka," Nilbog said. He reached out, and a female creature, no taller than three feet, hopped up onto the lap of the creature beside her king. She had a narrow face with a reptilian structure, with only four fangs at the very front, but smooth, humanlike skin. Her hair was white, her skin blue. She wore a toddler's clothes, a long, narrow tail lashing behind her. Nilbog stroked her hair.
"Not the first Polka," Jack said.
"No. The third."

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Though there are obvious similarities to King Tommy, that have been pointed out before.

Nilbog obviously came first.

 

[Darko]

No he definitely did that, here look
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/sting-26-4/

Though there are obvious similaritiedto King Tommy, that have been pointed out before.

Nilbog obviously came first.

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Well...

I'm going to go vomit now.

 

[Coda]

it's people were starving

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its

Creatures like my guide; midget animals who went for cute and fell far short

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comma instead of semicolon

 

[Vaermina]

That's assuming they can actually view him, precog him, or move him anywhere.

He has advanced tech and magic, probably even added something like the paragons tattoos, so it's possible they can't even see him right now. And Lisa passed out after seeing him so he may somehow be resistant to such powers.

Even if they are capable of viewing him, they may not want to interfere because they may like to see how he works and his modus operandi.

And before you say that this doesn't make sense remember that they did do a lot of weird shit in canon that didn't make much sense.

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Even assuming LP was nothing but a blindspot, which we know he isn't since people can see and hear him, Clairvoyant would still know where he was from the blindspot itself.

Further you're missing an important point, Niblog isn't a "wait and see" level of problem, he's a "kill it with nuclear fire" problem that only avoids being killed with fire due to the fact that the scales are precariously weighed on the razor edge of doing so being more damaging then just letting him sit in the town till everything starves to death.

No he definitely did that, here look
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/sting-26-4/

Though there are obvious similarities to King Tommy, that have been pointed out before.

Nilbog obviously came first.

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Like hitting a giant tanker truck full of unstable nitroglycerin with a sledgehammer...

 

[Mr Zoat]

its
comma instead of semicolon

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[iamnuff]

Lord Paultector would be much better served nuking the place from orbit.

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Yeah, Nilbog is an entirely reprehensible creature.
I can't think of any reason to deal with him, or anything useful that he could give you beyond canon-fodder troops.

The Protectorate were well-able to destroy Nilbog's kingdom in Ellisville, it's the aftermath that kept them from doing so. A lot of precog time was spent asking variations of "okay but what if we tried x" and they consistently returned "bad idea, do not attempt, just let sleeping dogs lie"

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None of those people were an enlightened Yellow Lantern.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but at this point he should be more than capable of sterilising an area X kilometres wide, which would render all of Nilbog's backup plans totally futile.
All of his stuff is trapped in Ellisburg, or he'd have used it already to try to break containment, and all of his creations are purely biological in nature.
Just exterminate all lifeforms inside the containment area. Everything from people to bugs to bacteria. Go a mile or two deep underground too.
Hit em with the blue-rinse.
If you can brute-force Lung, then you can brute-force Nilbog

Take away the risk of a runaway biological WMD, and this civilization might be the most important event in human history. Aliens or mutants, they might be a few nutrients or augmentations short of enjoying a human lifespan. They seem to be one of the most important events on Earth Bet.

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But you can't take away the risk of a runaway Biological WMD, because that's literally what they are, and whileever Nilbog remains Nilbog (An unrepentant insane mass-murderer) that is all they will ever be.
Them being sapient lifeforms is true, but they're unceasingly loyal to their creator, who is a mass-murdering lunatic, so it doesn't matter.

He made them to murder a city, and if not for the containment zone aggressively exterminating anything that attempts to leave the area and his own lack of resources preventing him from forcing his way out, he'd have killed millions or billions more people.
Dude needs to die, and that means all his kids need to go with him.

No pity for any of them.

The question is, how long ago does a mass killing have to happen before it's purely historical?

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Long enough that the person who perpetrated it isn't still alive and ruling the country.

 

[l---erddad---l]

No pity for any of them.

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I 1000% disagree here. To not pity a sentient being for being in a situation which completely disallows their life from continuing to exist means that you are unable to empathize with others at a normal level. If a cult indoctrinates children to be assassins, you would mourn them, even as you accept that generally they're too far gone to be redeemed.

 

[Senevri]

I straighten up. "My title is Lord Protector. And I work for myself."

"Are you a king?"

"No."

"It's a very grand-sounding title, for a man who says that he isn't a king."

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Am I supposed to get Oliver Cromwell vibes here?

 

[Vaermina]

Yeah, Nilbog is an entirely reprehensible creature.

I can't think of any reason to deal with him, or anything useful that he could give you beyond canon-fodder troops.

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He can't even really give that since his Troops are basically much less intelligent Skaven that will overrun and depopulate pretty much anywhere they are sent.

 

[iamnuff]

I 1000% disagree here. To not pity a sentient being for being in a situation which completely disallows their life from continuing to exist means that you are unable to empathize with others at a normal level. If a cult indoctrinates children to be assassins, you would mourn them, even as you accept that generally they're too far gone to be redeemed.

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I don't empathise with monsters.

These aren't cultist children. They're puppets.

All of nilbog's children love him enough to be willing to die for him. That's not natural.
No rebellion? No teenage angst? No dislike for his methods? No diverging opinions at all?
It could be a facet of their youth, I suppose. The eldest of them is four years old.

On the other hand, they don't seem to have much capacity for empathy and they'd rip you to shreds in a moment if he gave the order.
No, I see them as extensions of Nilbog's will, and he needs to die. Therefore they need to die, because they are part of him.

You can't cut off a man's head and leave his limbs alive, so you can't kill Nilbog without wiping out his spawn too.

Whether they 'deserve' pity or not is irreverent. It won't change the facts of the situation, and it might make the necessary work of sterilising the area harder or more emotionally damaging for yourself than if you just chose not to.

 

[Darko]

Even assuming LP was nothing but a blindspot, which we know he isn't since people can see and hear him, Clairvoyant would still know where he was from the blindspot itself.

Further you're missing an important point, Niblog isn't a "wait and see" level of problem, he's a "kill it with nuclear fire" problem that only avoids being killed with fire due to the fact that the scales are precariously weighed on the razor edge of doing so being more damaging then just letting him sit in the town till everything starves to death

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He's not a blind spot to most people that are just watching him in person, kinda like how Paul whose tattoos make him difficult to view through arcane means, but seeing him with eyes is still possible, but he most likely is one to Thinkers given what happened to Lisa.

He may also have a way of avoiding people knowing where he was by searching that blind spot, especially after spending several days in that universe, and he also would have good reason to cloak himself using some of his equipment, which the locals may not be able to detect since its not exactly tinkertech, but rather alien tech combined with magic, both things that I think a lot of the locals don't have much, if any, experience with.

As for Cauldron letting him do all these things, they may not be able to see him or grab him, or even if they can after spending several days killing high level threats they may want to recruit him for their 'Kill Zion' plan that they're willing to take a risk on seeing how he works.

And don't say that it doesn't make sense that they would do that. A whole lot of their actions in canon didn't make sense.

 

[Vaermina]

He's not a blind spot to most people that are just watching him in person, kinda like how Paul whose tattoos make him difficult to view through arcane means, but seeing him with eyes is still possible, but he most likely is one to Thinkers given what happened to Lisa.

He may also have a way of avoiding people knowing where he was by searching that blind spot, especially after spending several days in that universe, and he also would have good reason to cloak himself using some of his equipment, which the locals may not be able to detect since its not exactly tinkertech, but rather alien tech combined with magic, both things that I think a lot of the locals don't have much, if any, experience with.

As for Cauldron letting him do all these things, they may not be able to see him or grab him, or even if they can after spending several days killing high level threats they may want to recruit him for their 'Kill Zion' plan that they're willing to take a risk on seeing how he works.

And don't say that it doesn't make sense that they would do that. A whole lot of their actions in canon didn't make sense.

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You forget that Zoat already directly stated that what happened to Lisa and that it had nothing to do with any sort of magical blocking ability/technology.

Also the LP is way to low tier to be any use against Zion.

 

[Darko]

You forget that Zoat already directly stated that what happened to Lisa and that it had nothing to do with any sort of magical blocking ability/technology.

Also the LP is way to low tier to be any use against Zion.

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Citation for the first one please.

Also he could have started using such equipment after spending some time in Earth Bet, after figuring out what types of powers exist there.

LP is an enlightened Lantern with extremely advanced equipment.

That's not exactly low tier in any sense of the word, seeing as he's at least on the Triumvirates level, if not higher.

Power rings in the comics have done some extremely powerful things, up to and including destroying planets.