With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Mister_Potato · Jan 20, 2020

... what the fuck, a Nazi who is not a serial killer appears in a story and everyone loses his mind. I am Latino, bisexual and of Jewish descent, and I can assure you that I would not mind if Zoat says that Overgirl is the fucking second coming of Jesus.

This is dangerously close to violating the rules of the forum so I would appreciate you stop talking about Nazis and keep talking about ponies, hentai... or shit like that.

Cuchulin · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Oh, I'm sorry. They've only killed all the people they wanted to kill already.
I've accused her of being a Nazi by the way. Pretty sure she does have everything to do with that. As she is one.
I didn't have sympathy for the Citadel.
I didn't have sympathy for the Gorg something other aliens.
I didn't have sympathy for the Eye ripper planet.
I didn't have sympathy for the Silver City angels.
I didn't have sympathy for the Psions.
So why the fuck would I have sympathy for the Nazi?
I really don't care how she got there. No more then I care about any Hitler youth that caught a bullet
I also find all this "She can be useful" logic dehumanizing as fuck. Like wow, your entire life, and how much effort he'll put in, all depends on whether or not OL thinks he can get something out of you.
You haven't? I guess you've missed the post after post of me being decried for being too harsh on the poor dear.
I don't find her all that sympathetic, and she's lowering my opinion of OL.
And of some people on this board to be honest.
Her ass could sit in a red sunlight cell. But no, OL's min/maxy bullshit is popping up. Thank god he sees some sort of use in her. Too bad for all the ones he didn't. I'd ask what the difference is, but that was it, he sees a use in her, and not them.
Oh, and of course the purifying, cleansing piety of it all.
If OL had just capped her when she got here, he's a monster.
If she snaps and kills a few people (She wont.) then at least he "Gave her a chance." I mean, fuck the people she killed right? The people that could have been saved.

My point -->

Your head -->
NO one is saying she isn't a Nazi, no one is saying you should have sympathy or empathy for her. All I'M doing is asking what has she actually DONE!! Yes! She is a Nazi, BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!! What kind of Nazi is she? Do you hate on Grammar Nazi's like this? I mean the last pope was a member of the Hitler youth as a kid, would you attack him for that? Does that fact that Stalin and the Soviets opposed the Nazi's some how make them less bad or excuse the horrible things they did? At some point words are just words and lose all meaning if they are just throw out there as labels for things or people some one dislikes.

Maxx Crowley said:
whatever
Fucking gross, all of it.

No, what is gross is all the blind hate you spew and how it detracts from others enjoyment of this story.

nick012000 · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
I'm continueally baffled at how many of you people have tried to present her beliefs as something like "I like pineapple on pizza". A culinary sin to be sure, but, you know, not a NAZI.

I think it's fundamentally wrong and harmful? I THINK?! At least six million people murdered under the made up bullshit beliefs of a fucking madman, people of both my ancestory and sexuality, family I will never know because they didn't make it out, and you try to frame it as if there is just some minor fracture in thought that can be debated? Just a little "Oops, philosophical argument."

So? Jewish communists killed even more people. Do you see anyone ranting and raving about how evil Jews and/or Communists are?

Maxx Crowley · Jan 20, 2020

====> Your point.

How many fucks I give about it = 0

You're arguing for me to do something I'm never going to do, and care about something I'm never going to care about.

Cuchulin said:
All I'M doing is asking what has she actually DONE!!

Been a Nazi. Also thrown out some disgusting shit. Red sunlight cell at the least.

You know, if another Joker wandered in from another Earth, I'd ice him too. Wouldn't even wait for him to commit a mass murder on earth 16. I know? How do I sleep at night?

Cuchulin said:
She is a Nazi, BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!!

Mean's she's a Nazi.

Cuchulin said:
What kind of Nazi is she?

The Nazi kind. Not Neo though. On her planet, she's OG

Cuchulin said:
Do you hate on Grammar Nazi's like this?

Grammar Nazi is a pithy internet phrase. Last I checked, no genocide on their behalf.

Cuchulin said:
I mean the last pope was a member of the Hitler you as a kid, would you attack him for that?

Absolutely. I'd also attack him on account of being a pope in the first degree. Also, head of a church with a staggering amount of pedophila.

Cuchulin said:
Does that fact that Stalin and the Soviets opposed the Nazi's some how make them less bad or excuse the horrible things they did?

Nope. Sometimes monsters fight monsters.

Cuchulin said:
No, what is gross is all the blind hate you spew and how it detracts from others enjoyment of this story.

Feel free to hit the ignore button on me and fuck off from my life forever. If hating actual nazi's is wrong, then I don't ever want to be right.

Also? Blind hate implies no reason. I have plenty of reasons.

As it stands, you turn my stomach.

nick012000 said:
So? Jewish communists killed even more people. Do you see anyone ranting and raving about how evil Jews and/or Communists are?

All the time.

jaelin910 · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx, there's, well, there's two things you said last page that have issues but having thought it over I think one of them is the core of this disagreement.

Maxx Crowley said:
I think it's fundamentally wrong and harmful?

Maxx Crowley said:
fundamentally harmful?

You seem to hold that certain beliefs can be harmful without needing to be acted on, that people can earn death for their opinions.
The reason we're defending overgirl isn't out of support for Nazis but refusal to live in an Orwellian dystopia where people can be punished for thoughtcrimes.

Maxx Crowley · Jan 20, 2020

jaelin910 said:
The reason we're defending overgirl isn't out of support for Nazis but refusal to live in an Orwellian dystopia where people can be punished for thoughtcrimes.

Oh, so the world she comes from and has soldiered in for most of her life? You know, the one where her regime and leaders committed mass murder of all those "Subhuman" races?

But I'm sure she's never carried out a single objectionable order. Never done anything wrong. Purest, most innocent little Nazi ever. Oh, and even if she had been crushing subhuman skulls left and right, well....she didn't do it on earth 16 so it's a freebee.

I'm judging her too harshly I'm sure. Let's just let her wander free.

Sucks to all those planets and people OL overthrew and fucked up their entire species because he found them objectionable, and even worse! Not useful.

So lets not lock her up. Let's stick her in situations and see what she does. Because, you know, she might be useful. Or she might kill some poor soul...but I mean fuck that person right? It's worth that risk. Gotta min/max that shit.

Let's play little fucking games instead of keeping her away from anyone she can hurt, and hey, I'll even be fair and say keep her away from anyone who can hurt her, until we can send her back to her nightmare nazi world.

Hopefully no invasion fleet will follow her or anything. Nah...the nazis weren't known for that.

Basically, if you want me to voice any sort of pity or support for a Nazi character, it's literally never going to happen. She could be throwing down with Darkseid, and I'd root for him.

Why?

Darkseid fake. Nazis real.

I'm not even going to bother bringing up all the other shit OL has pulled, people just as bad or worse then her that he hasn't given a chance...because at this point who gives a fuck?

It's not like my opinion has any effect on what has happened, or what will happen, with her.

jaelin910 said:
You seem to hold that certain beliefs can be harmful without needing to be acted on, that people can earn death for their opinions.

And you seem to hold that being a member of one of the most vile groups in history is on the same level as "We disagree politically."

If her beliefs are just fine, then so is every other horrid fucking group in this story and I guess OL should keep his nose out of it.

hkim · Jan 20, 2020

If you hate it this much, you can like, stop being in the thread until it's done. We'll PM you when it's clear?

jaelin910 · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Oh, so the world she comes from and has soldiered in for most of her life? You know, the one where her regime and leaders committed mass murder of all those "Subhuman" races?

Well, yeah. Must say, I didn't think you'd accept the comparison so readily.

Maxx Crowley said:
And you seem to hold that being a member of one of the most vile groups in history is on the same level as "We disagree politically."

I'm not sure I can meaningfully respond to that. You've been just vague enough that depending on what I assume you're trying to imply, my answer would be somewhere between 'duh' and 'no, absolutely not'

Maxx Crowley said:
If her beliefs are just fine, then so is every other horrid fucking group in this story and I guess OL should keep his nose out of it.

I haven't slept in over 24 hours so I might be misremembering but I'm pretty sure I just said that holding a belief and acting on it were two different things. You may notice I haven't called for you to be locked up or executed? That's because, horrific as your views may be, so far as I'm aware you've only held and voiced those beliefs and while the latter certainly can be unacceptable, it typically isn't and the former is indeed fine.

The issue isn't that your position is baseless but that you go beyond the limits of what's reasonable. The problem with paying evil unto evil is that you're still committing evil and if you're not very discriminate in your targets while lowering yourself to roughly their level, you may well end up the worse evil in the situation.

Ardy · Jan 20, 2020

On a non-Nazi subject..

Zoat, if Saitama of One Punch Man fame hit a kinetic barrier, would it explode? Is there an upper limit for those things?

thebishop8 · Jan 20, 2020

Ardy said:
On a non-Nazi subject..

Zoat, if Saitama of One Punch Man fame hit a kinetic barrier, would it explode? Is there an upper limit for those things?

Nam-Ek overloaded Rocket's kinetic barrier during the Rampage episode, so Zoat's version somewhat does at least.

Handlewithcare · Jan 20, 2020

Ardy said:
On a non-Nazi subject..

Zoat, if Saitama of One Punch Man fame hit a kinetic barrier, would it explode? Is there an upper limit for those things?

It would be pretty absurd if there wasn't. Everytime someone with one impacted the earth the entire planet would loose it's kinetic energy.

Mr Zoat · Jan 20, 2020

18th March
14:44 GMT -3

"…low level." Garth shakes his head. "There was no trace of magic being focused on a particular task. As far as I can tell, the magic systems of this forest are undisturbed."

I nod. I suspected, but it's always worth checking.

"Okay, good work."

Raquel shrugs. "What if they're.. hiding it, or something?"

Garth lets out a mildly pained exhalation. "There are many ways to hide with magic. It's taken me this long to be confident of my answer because I've been using the countermeasures for all of them." His eyes dart to the side for a moment. "The counters I can perform. Countering attempts to directly detect something with magic is simple, but the person casting it will know that they are being countered and therefore roughly where their target is. And any use of magic disrupts the-"

He takes a moment to assess the likely magic-competency of the people he's talking to.

"-background flows, in a way which can be detected later. I don't know this forest well, but I could not detect any significant disruption."

"What if they're just.. really good at hiding?"

"Then you need someone else. I do not-. I am not complaining, but these are not spells an Atlantean battlemage would ordinarily study in detail until they were studying for their mastery exam. I am not proficient enough to undo the work of someone who has studied hiding magics for their entire life."

"And we don't expect you to. Overgirl, see anything interesting?"

She hesitates for a moment, perhaps a little surprised that I'm asking her.

"There are no inexplicable sources of electromagnetism or sound. I cannot see anyone unusual through the trees. There is nothing hidden underground." She shrugs. "I have nothing to offer."

I nod.

"Rocket? Fire?"

Beatriz doesn't look particularly enthusiastic.

"Some people complaining about the disruption. Some people complaining about what the company pays. No real information about anyone who might have done it."

"No one unhappy with the work being done?"

Raquel shakes her head. "They were mostly happy about the jobs. One chick said she hoped that once the farm was built they'd sort out the area's power network. A couple people complained about what they were doing to the roads, but that was it. No one wants this stopped."

I nod. "Thank you both-."

"So?" Raquel puts her hands on her hips.

"So?"

"You gunna tell us what it is?"

I give my head a small shake. "I don't know."

"'cause you were sayin' this was a training mission."

"Oh, I could crank up my empathic vision and learn all sorts of things, but I think Squire has something she-."

"You don't know where we are, do you?"

Beryl's grinning.

"I know the grid reference, the longitude and latitude. Why?"

"Oh, given how much you went on about him, I thought you knew. Anyway, the damage was probably done with super strength. It matches damage patterns of other examples of super strength damage on record, rather than tools or super-sharp claws. No big footprints, so they're probably normal-sized. And they got their strength from the Danner Formula."

I frown. "Too much damage for Venom?"

"No. Danner blood clots differently. Once I worked out how that bloke cut his hand there was some blood that didn't fit, so I took a closer look."

"That was just.. steel, though. A Danner enhancile should be able to tear up steel as much as they like without getting a cut."

"Some of the saws here are tungsten carbide."

Uhhh… Tungsten carbide blade, if they hit it hard enough… Might pierce their skin… The blade would get the worst of it.

"It's possible. Did you find any fragments?"

"No." She shrugs. "Maybe they got cut somewhere else then came here? Look."

She pulls a slide out of her computer and holds it up. Scan…

"That's the Danner formula alright. Well found. What do you think our follow-up should be?"

"Dawn Warrior survived Hugo Danner's coup, right?" I nod. He's a long-serving Brazilian superhero who was part of Hugo's 'army', and he mostly took the job after Hugo lost because he didn't know what else to do with his life. "We could ask him. Can't be many people who know how to make it."

"The All-Star Squadron recovered his records. He might have showed the local tribes the process, but they wouldn't have had any sort of scientific education outside what he taught them. And I can't think of any reason why Luthor would have involved himself in this."

"How about Doctor Munro?"

I.. nod. "He was here, and he knows how to make the formula. But he said that he didn't know that there were other enhanciles…"

Huh.

"Think of something?"

"I never… Exactly asked him if he knew the formula himself before he went to work for Luthor. He might just have volunteered to let Luthor reverse-engineer it from his blood and tissues. I know that he knows the formula now..."

Raquel frowns. "Wait, so Luthor started making a super formula and you didn't check where he got it?"

"I… No, I didn't. It didn't seem important. And there's no reason for him to be doing field trials in the middle of Brazil when he could get plenty of volunteers just about anywhere."

No obvious reason for Dr Munro to randomly empower people either. And I don't think that his eagerness at the idea of meeting others like himself was feigned. That wouldn't make sense if he had been doling the stuff out himself. Of course, someone could have gotten hold of a sample of his blood while he was here… Or semen, if Hugo somehow managed to transmit it sexually as Dr Munro thought.

I think that I need to find that out.

"Alright, next step. Fire, do you know Dawn Warrior?"

She wiggles her head from side to side.

"A little. We've worked together, but we're not close."

I nod. "Overgirl, you and I are going to talk to Doctor Arnold Munro. Squire, you and Fire go and speak to Dawn Warrior. We need to know if he knows about any other Danner enhanciles around the place. Tempest, take Beryl's blood sample and try and track the owner."

"I.. don' t think I can do that. It's too old, now."

"Give it a try, or try identifying the alchemy in the Formula and track that. If you can't, then you can't. Rocket, stay here as security. A Danner enhancile could kill everyone here if they felt the need."

Her eyes dart to Angelika for a moment, then she nods.

"Squire, Fire, I'll drop you off."

chiazeiel · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Oh, so the world she comes from and has soldiered in for most of her life? You know, the one where her regime and leaders committed mass murder of all those "Subhuman" races?

But I'm sure she's never carried out a single objectionable order. Never done anything wrong. Purest, most innocent little Nazi ever. Oh, and even if she had been crushing subhuman skulls left and right, well....she didn't do it on earth 16 so it's a freebee.

Mr Zoat said:
"Actually, no, but I got the impression that Kaldur was the first black person she'd ever spoken to. The point is, though she would take part in a genocide if asked, she never has. Likewise, she hasn't ferreted disabled people out of hiding to send them to the camps because there aren't any. She hasn't had the opportunity to do the evil she'd be willing to do. What she's actually done is crime fighting and disaster relief. So is she evil-"

I don't think your assertions about her character quite bear out based on the information we are presented in the story. From what has actually been shown and stated in the story so far, all she has appeared to have done is act as a superhero through crime fighting and disaster relief.

As others in the thread have stated, she may have internalised views that most right-minded members of our society today would see as evil, but she has, from what has been shown in the story, not actually acted upon such beliefs. And whether you agree with it or not, thoughtcrime isnt actually considered a crime by most reasonable people in the world.

Given the above, in particular the fact that she hasnt actually committed a crime I do not believe that there would be sufficient justification for detaining her against her will, which would actually constitute a crime in most parts of the world today.

thebishop8 · Jan 20, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
but I think Squire was something she-."

Should "was" be "has"?

Mr Zoat · Jan 20, 2020

thebishop8 said:
Should "was" be "has"?

Thank you, corrected.

w34v3r · Jan 20, 2020

There might be a third way to get the danner package.

Certain adoption rituals would carry the enhancement one direction or another since it's both present in the blood and possibly inheritable.

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 20, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"…low level." Garth shakes his head. "There was no trace of magic being focused on a particular task. As far as I can tell, the magic systems of this forest are undisturbed."

I nod. I suspected, but it's always worth checking.

"Okay, good work."

Raquel shrugs. "What if they're.. hiding it, or something?"

You don't think that was one of the first things he'd look for? Have some faith in your teammates, honey.

Garth lets out a mildly pained exhalation. "There are many ways to hide with magic. It's taken me this long to be confident of my answer because I've been using the countermeasures for all of them." His eyes dart to the side for a moment. "The counters I can perform. Countering attempts to directly detect something with magic is simple, but the person casting it will know that they are being countered and therefore roughly where their target is. And any use of magic disrupts the-"

He takes a moment to assess the likely magic-competency of the people he's talking to.

"-background flows, in a way which can be detected later. I don't know this forest well, but I could not detect any significant disruption."

The team really does need a proper Thaumatological Theorist, not just combat mages... Zatanna is a bit too young and inexperienced though...

"What if they're just.. really good at hiding?"

"Then you need someone else. I do not-. I am not complaining, but these are not spells an Atlantean battlemage would ordinarily study in detail until they were studying for their mastery exam. I am not proficient enough to undo the work of someone who has studied hiding magics for their entire life."

I can just hear the 'Neptune damn it, This is annoying' in his voice...

"And we don't expect you do. Overgirl, see anything interesting?"

She hesitates for a moment, perhaps a little surprised that I'm asking her.

"There are no inexplicable sources of electromagnetism or sound. I cannot see anyone unusual through the trees. There is nothing hidden underground." She shrugs. "I have nothing to offer."

So her Oversight failed? What's the point of having her on Overwatch, then?

I nod.

"Rocket? Fire?"

Beatriz doesn't look particularly enthusiastic.

Looks like they had no better luck than the rest.

"Some people complaining about the disruption. Some people complaining about what the company pays. No real information about anyone who might have done it."

"No one unhappy with the work being done?"

Raquel shakes her head. "They were mostly happy about the jobs. One chick said she hoped that once the farm was built they'd sort out the area's power network. A couple people complained about what they were doing to the roads, but that was it. No one wants this stopped."

In other words, the usual sort of local annoyances.

I nod. "Thank you both-."

"So?" Raquel puts her hands on her hips.

"So?"

He can read emotions, Raquel, not minds. Use your words.

"You gunna tell us what it is?"

I give my head a small shake. "I don't know."

"'cause you were sayin' this was a training mission."

I would hope she'd treat it as a proper mission no matter what, not a casual training session...

"Oh, I could crank up my empathic vision and learn all sorts of things, but I think Squire was something she-."

"You don't know where we are, do you?"

Beryl's grinning.

Good god, I can feel the smug from here. She's radiating at least 2.5 Tattletales!

"I know the grid reference, the longitude and latitude. Why?"

"Oh, given how much you went on about him, I thought you knew. Anyway, the damage was probably done with super strength. It matches damage patterns of other examples of super strength damage on record, rather than tools or super-sharp claws. No big footprints, so they're probably normal-sized. And they got their strength from the Danner Formula."

So I was right, this is something coming out of the Children of Dawn debacle...

I frown. "Too much damage for Venom?"

"No. Danner blood clots differently. Once I worked out how that bloke cut his hand there was some blood that didn't fit, so I took a closer look."

Good work! How'd you miss that, OL?

"That was just.. steel, though. A Danner enhancile should be able to tear up steel as much as they like without getting a cut."

"Some of the saws here are tungsten carbide."

Oh-ho, and skin like steel plate won't stand up as well against something that sharp.

Uhhh… Tungsten carbide blade, if they hit it hard enough… Might pierce their skin… The blade would get the worst of it.

"It's possible. Did you find any fragments?"

"No." She shrugs. "Maybe they got cut somewhere else then came here? Look."

Wouldn't a Danner Enhancile heal such a cut too rapidly, though? I wouldn't expect more than five minutes before even a largish cut regenerated...

She pulls a slide out of her computer and holds it up. Scan…

"That's the Danner formula alright. Well found. What do you think our follow-up should be?"

Definitely some local CoD, then. Survivors of Hugo's band or someone new, though?

"Dawn Warrior survived Hugo Danner's coup, right?" I nod. He's long-serving Brazilian superhero who was part of Hugo's 'army', and he mostly took the job after Hugo lost because he didn't know what else to do with his life. "We could ask him. Can't be many people who know how to make it."

So some CoD did survive the initial combat and the subsequent illnesses. Who's to say one isn't living amongst a local tribe and has taken exception to the farmers moving in on 'his' turf?

"The All-Star Squadron recovered his records. He might have showed the local tribes the process, but they wouldn't have had any sort of scientific education outside what he taught them. And I can't think of any reason why Luthor would have involved himself in this."

"How about Doctor Munro?"

I.. nod. "He was here, and he knows how to make the formula. But he said that he didn't know that there were other enhanciles…"

Unless someone was wrong about the formula not being inheritable... By humans, especially. ~~Rats~~mice are one thing, people another.

Huh.

"Think of something?"

"I never… Exactly asked him if he knew the formula himself before he went to work for Luthor. He might just have volunteered to let Luthor reverse-engineer it from his blood and tissues. I know that he knows the formula now..."

Sloppy, OL! You lose points for lack of due diligence.

Raquel frowns. "Wait, so Luthor started making a super formula and you didn't check where he got it?"

"I… No, I didn't. It didn't seem important. And there's no reason for him to be doing field trials in the middle of Brazil when he could get plenty of volunteers just about anywhere."

I suppsoe you could make the excuse that he was still operating on normal emotional levels, so a lack of interest would make it slip his mind in favour of things he wanted to do.

No obvious reason for Dr Munro to randomly empower people either. And I don't think that his eagerness at the idea of meeting others like himself was feigned. That wouldn't make sense if he had been dolling the stuff out himself. Of course, someone could have gotten hold of a sample of his blood while he was here… Or semen, if Hugo somehow managed to transmit it sexually as Dr Munro thought.

I think that I need to find that out.

Yes, yes you should.

"Alright, next step. Fire, do you know Dawn Warrior?"

She wiggles her head from side to side.

"A little. We've worked together, but we're not close."

Good enough! Get to it!

I nod. "Overgirl, you and I are going to talk to Doctor Arnold Munro. Squire, you and Fire go and speak to Dawn Warrior. We need to know if he knows about any other Danner enhanciles around the place. Tempest, take Beryl's blood sample and try and track the owner."

"I.. don' t think I can do that. It's too old, now."

I suppose the magical energy in it has faded out, like old ink.

"Give it a try, or try identifying the alchemy in the Formula and track that. If you can't, then you can't. Rocket, stay here as security. A Danner enhancile could kill everyone here if they felt the need."

Her eyes dart to Angelika for a moment, then she nods.

"Squire, Fire, I'll drop you off."

Investigation mode go!

Hmm, the confirmation of Danner formula makes this quite the interesting situation. Was it someone who had the formula applied directly, like an original Child of Dawn, or is it someone who, like Doctor Munro, inherited from a previous instance. Perhaps the good Doctor has a half-indigene sibling running around out there, like some modern Tarzan...

Chaoswind · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Admittedly, at not point in all the chapters Zoat has done, did I expect two arcs of "Oh that poor little nazi" with like half the board cooing in sympathy.

In that regard, he got me. Never saw that coming.

Half is a very... Interesting interpretation of the sentiments of the readership...

RichardWhereat · Jan 20, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
And there's no reason for him to be doing field trials in the middle of Brazil when he could get plenty of volunteers just about anywhere.

Paul, say it with me; "Supervillain logic".

Handlewithcare · Jan 20, 2020

No one protests the destruction of the forrest? Aww

Darko · Jan 20, 2020

Lex may be more sane in your story and in the YJ cartoon, but he is still a supervillain and as such prone to certain modes of thought that a sane person would consider bat-shit crazy mixed with a bit of shortsighted stupidity.
Renegade Lex may be performing saner actions simply because he has the renegade to hold his hand and doesn't have to worry about his friends in their little clubhouse from making fun of him, paragon Lex is still in the clubhouse and doesn't have the paragon to hold his hand and stop him from doing something stupid.

Gforce1000 · Jan 20, 2020

chiazeiel said:
As others in the thread have stated, she may have internalised views that most right-minded members of our society today would see as evil, but she has, from what has been shown in the story, not actually acted upon such beliefs. And whether you agree with it or not, thoughtcrime isnt actually considered a crime by most reasonable people in the world.

I believe she referenced operations against freedom fighters/dissidents at one point, so she's probably killed a few people who didn't need or deserve to die. She's also mentioned as being willing to perform a genocide despite her father-figure actively stating that he wasn't happy about the previous ones, though that may be a case of her not really appreciating the fuck-uppedness of what she'd be doing.

The three main reasons I think it's still worth converting her are:
A) it seems pretty easy seeing as she was showing cracks as soon as she woke up
B) converting someone who is arguably the pinnacle of their ideology- smarter, stronger, blonder- is just about the biggest middle finger to the Nazi's you're going to find
C) Paul's pulled the trick where he's all polite and reasonable right up until he annihilates a fucker enough times to make me certain that he's had the order to create a Gold K burst queued up in the back of his mind the entire time.

Gantradies · Jan 20, 2020

making a moderate/reasonable effort to turn/deprogram her ALSO makes a LOT of sense if you're predicting/expecting a conflict with her home-parallel at some point (defensive or preemptive to prevent them spreading to other worldlines)-
as well as her defecting being a pretty damn good psychological blow,and one hard to cover up if the information release is handled correctly, she's a potential goldmine of information,-

and i dont -just- mean straight intel on the lay of the land/force dispersion/military equipment that you could easily extract with a mindrip-she KNOWS how a lot of the......Regime's forces/commands think, both in doctrine and on the personnel level- given they've been working with Kryptonian Tech/genetic material for longer than Strasse was reverse-engineering Daat yichud discoveries, knowing exactly what knockoffs/derivatives they're using/fielding could be quite useful...

Stsword · Jan 20, 2020

Chojin Patriarch said:
Hmm, the confirmation of Danner formula makes this quite the interesting situation. Was it someone who had the formula applied directly, like an original Child of Dawn, or is it someone who, like Doctor Munro, inherited from a previous instance. Perhaps the good Doctor has a half-indigene sibling running around out there, like some modern Tarzan...

That would be a surprise, the Danner formula apparently doesn't enhance one's swimmers, since Hugo laid pipe left and right (including having a literal harem while among the Brazilian tribe) and yet Iron was his only apparent child.

The connections could also be from Germany, Argentina and Brazil have a sizable German-south american population.

Zoat indicated that both Donner and Ubermensch were Danner enhanced.

chiazeiel · Jan 20, 2020

Gforce1000 said:
I believe she referenced operations against freedom fighters/dissidents at one point, so she's probably killed a few people who didn't need or deserve to die. She's also mentioned as being willing to perform a genocide despite her father-figure actively stating that he wasn't happy about the previous ones, though that may be a case of her not really appreciating the fuck-uppedness of what she'd be doing.

Mr Zoat said:
Kon nods sympathetically. "Yeah, Superman's not keen on doing that. I don't really get it. I mean, humans already have nuclear missiles and-" His eyes flick my way. "-death rays and stuff, so what difference does it make if they get kryptonian crystal-based construction technology as well? If anything, tougher buildings should make people safer."

Har-Zod isn't in favour of sharing with humans. And Kal-El is the closest thing to legitimate kryptonian authority here. I've… Got a contingency plan for if the League needs to end its relationship with the UN for some reason. The Kryptonian database has all sorts of designs which could be easily marketed without threatening anyone's secret identity, enabling the League to be financially independent and entirely open about where the money was coming from.

"Unfortunately, even kryptonian technology is not impervious to weapons which terrorists can bring to bear."

A cursory search of the archive doesn't seem to indicate that she took part in operations against dissidents or freedom fighters, let alone kill them, though there was a reference to the existence of "terrorists" bringing about weapons to bear on buldings.

While I acknowledge that she could have taken part in operations against such people or killed people who did not need or deserve to die, I don't think it is sufficient evidence to indicate that she did. I could very well have missed something though.

Darko · Jan 20, 2020

Weird nazi experimentation could be what's happening.
South America has a significant german population, it wouldn't be a surprise if one of those was a former nazi scientist who escaped there with the formula.
I think Zoat mentioned something about the guy that created, or found, the formula knew Wolf Kriegers father, or maybe him.

As to Overgirl and her killing freedom fighters/dissidents/terrorists, maybe she killed terrorists that weren't fighting for freedom, but maybe fighting for some extreme version of racial purity.
She mentioned to OL that having a roma grandparent would exclude him from becoming Fuhrer, though possibly not have him killed so maybe some of those terrorists wanted a totally pure nation where no one that has a ancestor of a diffrent ethnic background is allowed to live.
Though i admit she probably killed people we would consider freedom fighters, although they may have performed actions that led to the death of civilians, something i am sure that even Overman would find objectionable and would similarly kill them, even though he has doubts about the nazi philosophy and actions.

ForeverShogo · Jan 20, 2020

While I get where Maxx is coming from, I admit that I'm a little put off by him extending such an attitude to anyone who was part of the Hitler Youth. To the extent that he feels absolutely zero sympathy for any of them who died after they were forced to fight the Soviets in the last days of the Third Reich.

They were literally children. Children who were forced into it. The Nazis made membership in the Hitler Youth mandatory. Unless you're seriously suggesting that we should have exterminated every single German older than 9 years old.

Like, fuck, I get being pissed at people who chose to be a Nazi. But I don't get the total lack of sympathy for people who never had a choice in the matter.

============

On Overgirl . . . I'll be honest. I don't think you're going to get a defection.

Even if reforming her works out, I flat out don't see her trying to join the Freedom Fighters or actually fighting Earth 10's regime.

I think she's more likely to try to do what Overman was trying to do. Try to change the system from within.

Like how Overman openly expresses, on national tv, that he thinks the genocides were wrong and the Nazis could have found a better way.

I just see Overman and a reformed Overgirl as the types who would try to create a non-murderous variant of Nazism rather than discarding Nazism altogether.

Sharp Card · Jan 20, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
I think it's fundamentally wrong and harmful? I THINK?! At least six million people murdered under the made up bullshit beliefs of a fucking madman, people of both my ancestory and sexuality, family I will never know because they didn't make it out, and you try to frame it as if there is just some minor fracture in thought that can be debated? Just a little "Oops, philosophical argument."

Meh. I lost family to Communists and Capitalists.
There was nothing exceptional about Nazism. Not nationalism, genocides, racism, discriminatory policies, eugenics, expansionism...

If I was up for killing people with evil beliefs most of the world would need to die.

Simonbob · Jan 20, 2020

The thing about Nazism is that most people, even indoctranated ones, are going to be somewhat moderate.

"Sure, they're below us, but, killing them? Can't we just, send them off elsewhere?"

It's the leaders who want to kill, as part of empowering themselves further. But, the practice of creating enemies to foster unity never ends.

As for "Freedom Fighters"? Most of them do horrible things. They are out numbered and out powered, and desperate.

After all, if that was not so, they'd be Govenment forces.

Ngamer11 · Jan 20, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
"And we don't expect you do. Overgirl, see anything interesting?"

It should be "And we don't expect you to."

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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