With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Idkusername · Dec 23, 2020

Does Martian society have whiteface? /s

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Idkusername said:
Does Martian society have whiteface? /s

Maybe, we know M'gann had greenface for several months.

SpiritualSlacker · Dec 23, 2020

Darko said:
Maybe, we know M'gann had greenface for several months.

Martians could likely only have white/green/red/whateverface in the obviously inauthentic way, at least within their own culture, since they identify each other through telepathic contact rather than visual markers (which makes sense, considering they are shapeshifters).

Chojin Patriarch · Dec 23, 2020

Mr Zoat said:
4th July 2012
21:39 GMT

The White Martian with the guns pointed at him looks my way.

…

He's trying to make contact, isn't he? As if anyone would leave themselves undefended in this situation?

"If you think I'm lowering my telepathic defences in a situation like this, you've got another thing coming. I realise that it's not your preferred way of communicating, but I would appreciate it if you could speak out loud."

The shape of that Martian's throat changes slightly.

At least the fellow's doing as he's asked. After all, what reason does he have to distrust OL and GL?

"This.. is.. inefficient."

"Direct contact with my mind can be… Unhealthy. Non-green power rings require a rather emotional mind state, and I've knocked Manhunters out through simple mental contact before. Besides, would you want-" I glance at the four… No, now eight Manhunters who are guarding the tunnel. "-to risk them influencing me into attacking you?"

And you know at least one of them might. If only to justify a crackdown on the 'uppity' Whites...

One of the Manhunters jerks his head my way, his form shifting into that of a J'onn lookalike.

"You have been invited here by the Prelate. Your person is inviolable. I would rather let this mob cut off my arms than disobey her command."

Okay, that's a decent cop. He lives for the job, doesn't he? No political bias, just the law and his duty above all?

"Let us say that I accept that you would not do so deliberately. Do you know enough about unshielded human minds to avoid doing to accidentally, by inadvertently imprinting your schematic models into my thought processes?"

"It.. should not-. No." The Manhunter doesn't look around, but the rest of the squad ripple and either adopt a similar shape -and given the appearance of one of them, they've clearly been watching Mr. J'aarkn's recording- or at least add a larynx to their default shape. "Are you satisfied?"

Morphing into a more human form to put the outsiders at ease? There's a subtle touch.

"I can only talk with people who can talk." I turn my head towards John. "Lantern Stewart, what set this off?"

"The Manhunters don't want to let anyone other than B'enn B'lanx talk to us. Which means everyone else has to stay outside. Mister B'lanx's followers aren't happy with that."

Wow, is that stupid. With their prior behaviour, why wouldn't the White group assume they'll casually 'disappear' B'lanx as soon as they get the chance.

Gun-target White Martian inclines his head slightly.

"They think I might have an accident."

See/ Even he thinks the same way I do.

"I don't care enough about what happens here to want to kill you."

"So you say. But we Whites don't get access to planetwide news messages unless we steal them. I have no idea who you are or what you've done."

Probably a top-level decision. Don't let the 'animals' get ideas 'above their station' by controlling what information they do get. And every reveal makes the local leaders look worse and worse...

"You know how Mars has a habitable surface now?"

"It does?"

That's just...

What, did the Reds and Greens plan to take the surface, and leave the White living in the caverns? Because I would not put it past the hardliners to be planning just that...

"Yes. Well, breathable atmosphere and enough of a magnetic field that you don't have to worry about cosmic rays. It's not exactly liveable yet, due to being a barren wasteland, but that's a work in progress. I was going to claim credit on the grounds that it was an Orange Lantern who got things to this stage at my request, but I suppose… If you didn't know about it there's no credit to claim."

"I suppose that it's nice that you made an effort."

Even B'enn here doesn't sound like he expects to ever see any benefit from it... God, I want to see the Whites rise up forcefully just to make up for this shit...

"I'm also why most Martian cities have relaxed or abolished restrictions on their White inhabitants. I assume that you knew about that?"

"Yes. Why?"

Why? Because seeing such inequality is an insult to him? Because all this racial tension and misunderstanding is wasteful, both in time and lives? Because he wants a better world for everyone, regardless of who or what they are? Take your pick.

"Because colour-based restrictions with no basis in biological reality are horribly unfair. I have a White-."

"You have a White. Best. Friend."

Okay, I'll give B'enn that. It does sound like a horrible cliche.

"M'gann M'orzz is the only Martian I know well enough to call a friend, and she's been on Earth for over two years."

For a moment I consider creating a construct image with her likeness, but of course colour is important. Instead, I take out a hologram projector and generate an image of her default form, next to one of her monochrome mission form.

Because she owns her birth colour these days. No hiding in a green palette swap for a long time now. And it is satisfying.

"Have her reports of earthly heroism made it this far?"

"No. We would never be told anything about a heroic White."

Honestly, I doubt the Greens would share that info anyway. One more 'uppity White' in their eyes, I bet. Even though she's half-Green.

Well, darn. No, I suppose that they wouldn't, and Martians probably wouldn't consider heroics on Earth all that important anyway.

I tap the side of my forehead with my right forefinger.

Nothing like first-hand experience of someone's character.

"Alright. I'll focus on everything heroic I've seen her do. For your own safety, don't stray from my surface thoughts. And-" I look around the crowd. "-just you."

"Fine."

The suggestion that anyone else, Green or White, will run into massive shields is probably not lost on the crowd. There's probably something of a social faux pas there, maybe...

I feel a slight push even as I go through the mental transformations needed to remove my shields. My familiarity with M'gann and Henry mean that I also feel his response to an alien mindscape: a distinct hesitation. Good. That shows good sense and is what I wanted anyway.

**[Meeting M'gann for the first time.] [The fight with Mister Twister.] [Santa Prisca.] [Red Volcano.] [J'aarkn, when she went white full time.] [The Young Offenders.]**

Including the recap of her alternate's details, no doubt. Man, OL is in complete control of this interaction, isn't he?

I skip the Burner without making it obvious that I'm skipping something. If he were more used to by mind he might spot it, but since he knows that he's getting a slideshow it doesn't appear to register.

**[The Star Conquerors.] [And a hundred snapshots of minor social interactions and heroic deeds that didn't qualify as full-fledged missions.]**

And since she's one of his closest friends on the team, early on at least, there's probably a lot of such moments.

"I see."

His eyes glow faintly, and from the way the Martians closest to him are doing the same I assume that he's sharing what he saw with them.

Which OL fully expected him to do, no doubt. Which means the entire White population in the area will know within hours. That's a definite morale win for the White population.

"Do you accept that on the balance of probability I do in fact have a White friend?"

"Yes. And you have no special reason to harm me." He raises his right arm and points to the talkative Manhunter. "That one does."

And we're back to the original problem. But now OL has that big bonus to his social checks with B'enn... Joy of conversational side-tracks...

"Would you accept a smaller bodyguard? The rest could stay in the next cavern and watch telepathically."

The talkative Manhunter grimaces. "They should do what they are told."

Okay, dude? That attitude is exactly what they're having a problem with. But clearly he and his have never considered that <gasp> They could be wrong!

"You can go back to beating up unarmed civil rights activists once I'm gone. My understanding is that you've been told that I'm allowed to have this meeting. I'm choosing to have it with…" I count Manhunters. "Twenty White Martians rather than a hundred. Or one. Is complying with my request a problem."

"Yes. They aren't our only security concern."

And you have a Green Lantern here to help keep the peace (Depending on whether John chooses to wait out here or not.) Whether it's the Whites who start something or you Greens...

"Last year the Hyperclan tried to kill me when they tried to undo the mental reprogramming of a convicted rapist and murderer I was visiting. The fight ended with most of them retreating while one remained in Manhunter custody. I doubt that the violent fringe of the White Rights movement regard me fondly."

I pause.

That's putting it mild as milquetoast. I suspect more than a few of the older Hyperclan members still want his head. What their leader wants?

We haven't seen that yet...

"You have access to those records, don't you?"

"Yes." The eyes of another member of the squad light up, presumably the communications specialist. "We will confirm-." An eye-flicker. "I see. Very well. We accept your claim. We will permit you to discuss matters with a small group. The rest will disperse."

To echo Captain America here: "Son... Just.. don't." That is not going to happen, I think.

"The rest will remain outside."

He stares at me, and his eyes flicker for a moment.

If he thinks he can bully the Whites into moving on, He is seriously mistaken. Unless he wants to trigger a race war in his town?

"Very well."

"But. " I turn back to Mr. B'lanx. "No one with the Hyperclan symbol. They already tried to kill me once. I'm not keen on them trying again."

Smart. It's going to be tense enough keeping the peace in there without some bravo deciding he stands a chance at starting something...

Well, one confrontation averted... And a handy sampler of M'Gann's heroism dropped into the local headspace. Who knows what effect seeing that will have on some plucky youngster, whatever their colour?

...to avoid doing to accidentally...

...to avoid doing so accidentally...

If he were more used to by mind...

If he were more used to my mind...

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Chojin Patriarch said:
At least the fellow's doing as he's asked. After all, what reason does he have to distrust OL and GL?

He may not trust authority figures and cops due to bad experience.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Okay, that's a decent cop. He lives for the job, doesn't he? No political bias, just the law and his duty above all?

I doubt he's only interested in doing his duty.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Wow, is that stupid. With their prior behaviour, why wouldn't the White group assume they'll casually 'disappear' B'lanx as soon as they get the chance.

I doubt they care what the Whites care or think.

Chojin Patriarch said:
That's just... What, did the Reds and Greens plan to take the surface, and leave the White living in the caverns?

Most likely.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Even B'enn here doesn't sound like he expects to ever see any benefit from it.

He's mostly interested in ending the racism against Whites, so the planet being fixed doesn't really help him all that much in that regard.

The Red's and Green's can now be racists under a sky instead of underground.

Chojin Patriarch said:
God, I want to see the Whites rise up forcefully just to make up for this shit...

As long as they don't harm any innocents on the Green or Red side.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Why? Because seeing such inequality is an insult to him? Because all this racial tension and misunderstanding is wasteful, both in time and lives? Because he wants a better world for everyone, regardless of who or what they are? Take your pick.

He doesn't know Paul so he doesn't have any idea of his character or his motivations.

His actions may be leading to the end of racism, but the reason for him doing them could be for a reason that doesn't have anything to do with racism.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Okay, I'll give B'enn that. It does sound like a horrible cliche.

Yes, yes it does.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Honestly, I doubt the Greens would share that info anyway. One more 'uppity White' in their eyes, I bet. Even though she's half-Green.

The Green's and Red's in this city may not do that, but other may be doing it, most likely using M'gann as a propaganda piece on how White's can be brave, capable and heroic.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Okay, dude? That attitude is exactly what they're having a problem with. But clearly he and his have never considered that <gasp> They could be wrong!

I doubt they ever considered that.

Mr Zoat · Dec 23, 2020

Darko said:
'means'
'regards'

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
That's just... What, did the Reds and Greens plan to take the surface, and leave the White living in the caverns? Because I would not put it past the hardliners to be planning just that...

In this city, they're not doing surface reclamation. The Reds know exactly what's happening and the Greens know that it's happening.

Honestly, I doubt the Greens would share that info anyway. One more 'uppity White' in their eyes, I bet. Even though she's half-Green.

No, she's a White who happens to have a Green parent.

For some reason I'm reminded of the Southern Victory series. A Jewish man who escaped genocide in Russia lives in the Confederacy and joins the Freedom Party. When another member of the party comments in an affronted tone of voice that they don't murder Jews in the Confederacy he replies 'No, here all your Jews are black.'. And he was a loyal member of the party who ended up being executed for war crimes.

...to avoid doing so accidentally...
If he were more used to my mind...

Thank you, corrected.

Handlewithcare · Dec 23, 2020

Anyone else have the impression that Paul is being less patient with people? His needs totally dictating his conduct?

Perhaps a vacation is needed? Grayven has Eqestria to help him relax after all.

Also, it's still hilarious that shapeshifters discriminate by look.

Chaoswind · Dec 23, 2020

Pretty sure this guy showed up on the Renegade side, Karman sent Grayven to talk to him to facilitate "peace" because this guy and his group took over this city without being under the direct chain of command of the hyper clan (they were members).

The whole episode ended with Karman killing most of the rulers of Mars and Grayven using a God nuke to erase Olympus (the Mars super volcano) apparently killing Karman and the hyper clan people in that base.

Flightless Man · Dec 23, 2020

Handlewithcare said:
Anyone else have the impression that Paul is being less patient with people? His needs totally dictating his conduct?

Perhaps a vacation is needed? Grayven has Eqestria to help him relax after all.

Also, it's still hilarious that shapeshifters discriminate by look.

Yeah, basically since he arrived, paul has been going hard. he's on what 4 years of constant high pressure look after Earth, his Sector, and all of space. Were saying he needs to do more, but he is doing more then 99.9% of humans to improve the species. If one man is needed to uplift us because we can't work together on our own, are we really worth the effort of him forcing us every step of the way? One man can do it but 7 billion can't?

Paul needs to bring Jade to Tamaran with Kori and Alan for vacation when a gap in Reach war occurs. Diana would also enjoy the visit i believe.

Heck a good number of people paul is friends with could do with this. Barry Allen, Zatana, and a good chunk of anyone who faught the Sheeda can do with a vacation.

Or a Mother of Mercy day long vision. Once a week for a few months?

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Handlewithcare said:
Anyone else have the impression that Paul is being less patient with people? His needs totally dictating his conduct?

Not a lot of people can be patient with racist assholes.

Handlewithcare said:
Also, it's still hilarious that shapeshifters discriminate by look.

And technically by telepathic signature.

They can change their color, but not their mental state.

Chaoswind said:
The whole episode ended with Karman killing most of the rulers of Mars and Grayven using a God nuke to erase Olympus (the Mars super volcano) apparently killing Karman and the hyper clan people in that base.

I don't think it was ever confirmed if they did destroy the base or Karmang.

The place the fortress was located on was destroyed, but Karmang could have also just teleported it to some place else, and also teleported himself away to a safe place.

Flightless Man said:
Diana would also enjoy the visit i believe.

And will most likely befriend Kori.

A highly empathetic and brave warrior princess, just like Diana.

I'm reminded of this other YJ SI story in which Kori is one of the main characters and she befriends both Diana and Donna.

Flightless Man · Dec 23, 2020

Darko said:
And will most likely befriend Kori.

A highly empathetic and brave warrior princess, just like Diana.

I'm reminded of this other YJ SI story in which Kori is one of the main characters and she befriends both Diana and Donna.

O.O i was only thinking of Kori showing Alan around since she is into him. Now i'm head cannoning Kori going after Diana and Alan.

"We must join Tamaran, Themyscia, and Man's World in marriage. FOR PEACE!"

And how do Diana or Alan say no to peace? I was also getting Diana Alan vibes for a while so Kori's interest threw me until this realization.

Yeah that was definitely the same story that made me think Diana would have fun on Tamaran. (Since Kori goes to Themyscira in it, Diana going to Tamaran would be cool so i have both sides of how it would occur).

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Flightless Man said:
O.O i was only thinking of Kori showing Alan around since she is into him. Now i'm head cannoning Kori going after Diana and Alan.

"We must join Tamaran, Themyscia, and Man's World in marriage. FOR PEACE!"

And how do Diana or Alan say no to peace? I was also getting Diana Alan vibes for a while so Kori's interest threw me until this realization.

Yeah that was definitely the same story that made me think Diana would have fun on Tamaran. (Since Kori goes to Themyscira in it, Diana going to Tamaran would be cool so i have both sides of how it would occur).

Funny, but I doubt Kori will end up with Diana and Alan.

Although a Diana/Alan pairing may work.

DrThoth · Dec 23, 2020

Darko said:
Funny, but I doubt Kori will end up with Diana and Alan.

Although a Diana/Alan pairing may work.

Now I'm imagining a potential child of theirs. Part-Titan or god, part Will-elemental, possibly a nascent Goddess of Will or Hope. I'm less into Babies Ever After story endings than I used to be, but I'd be down to see it.

Maxx Crowley · Dec 23, 2020

Darko said:
Funny, but I doubt Kori will end up with Diana and Alan.

Who are you to ruin someone's shipping dreams?

That's Zoat's job.

Pez · Dec 23, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
Who are you to ruin someone's shipping dreams?

That's Zoat's job.

That glorious bastard has been ruining my shipping dreams for quite some time now. I go to bed every night furious that he denies me my fantasies, but manage to forgive him with every new chapter, even though they further push me away from what I want.

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
That's Zoat's job.

He doesn't have a monopoly on it.

Massgamer · Dec 23, 2020

I found the whole 'White Friend' thing really funny. You won't find anyone brag about that in RL.

Pez · Dec 23, 2020

Racial prejudices don't make sense in a telepathic society, to me. They feel the effects of their actions on others. They can sense the pain and hurt they cause. Burners might not care for others, but actual modern Martians should be far more empathetic towards their own people, even if they are different colors.

Unless a good portion of their population are actually sadists and enjoy the suffering of others, or perhaps worse, feel it and just don't care... If we go back in time to the era of slavery, and give all humans telepathic abilities, I would suspect slavery would end very fast.

Maybe I'm projecting too much of my human values and morals onto them, but I don't think so.

rkyeun · Dec 23, 2020

Pez said:
Racial prejudices don't make sense in a telepathic society, to me. They feel the effects of their actions on others. They can sense the pain and hurt they cause.

Sword of the Stars II: Born of Blood called. They would like you to meet the Zuul.

Valint · Dec 23, 2020

Pez said:
Racial prejudices don't make sense in a telepathic society, to me.

Eh, I think there are better possible explanations for "shapeshifters deeply care about what color skin you were born with" than "they're morons".

My head-canon (which may, of course, be completely wrong) is that it's not that they were born with skin of a particular shade, it's that being [White] or [Green] or [Red] is about being born with a certain mindset, one that you in part inherited from your parents in the womb, and the skin color is just a manifestation of who you are.

Perhaps being White means that you're warrior caste: Your enjoyment of conflict and crushing your enemies was a necessity way back when Mars was wild and unfriendly, but a detriment now that it's a peaceful communitarian society. Your mindset and values are simply different from most people around you, and they shun you because, on a pretty basic level, you live in a society that isn't designed for people like you, and there's good and solid reasons why everyone else has moved on from the kind of society you'd be happy in and doesn't want to go back to that.

To me, it would be more interesting if this is a conflict without the easy answer of "You're all being morons. Stop being morons. There, everything's solved!"

Stsword · Dec 23, 2020

Valint said:
Eh, I think there are better possible explanations for "shapeshifters deeply care about what color skin you were born with" than "they're morons".

My head-canon (which may, of course, be completely wrong) is that it's not that they were born with skin of a particular shade, it's that being [White] or [Green] or [Red] is about being born with a certain mindset, one that you in part inherited from your parents in the womb, and the skin color is just a manifestation of who you are.

JLA 86 Superman "Martians choose their physical form as a reflection of their ideals and belief system. It's a part of their culture."

So yes, the difference in the comics was more like a political party than an actually different phenotype.

And that issue is part of the Fernus storyline "Trial by Fire."

That was part of the JLA's shock at MM's transformation into Fernus, that the demonic transformation into Fernus would have been MM's choice.

A note for those who don't read the comics- Trial by Fire is the storyline that established that Martians used to be Burning Martians in New Earth continuity. It never said anything about the Guardians making the different "races" though.

Of course, the comics later introduced Green serial killers and White Martians who wouldn't hurt a fly, so DC apparently forgot that it was supposed to be a psychological and not genetic difference.

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Pez said:
Racial prejudices don't make sense in a telepathic society, to me. They feel the effects of their actions on others. They can sense the pain and hurt they cause. Burners might not care for others, but actual modern Martians should be far more empathetic towards their own people, even if they are different colors.

Unless a good portion of their population are actually sadists and enjoy the suffering of others, or perhaps worse, feel it and just don't care... If we go back in time to the era of slavery, and give all humans telepathic abilities, I would suspect slavery would end very fast.

Maybe I'm projecting too much of my human values and morals onto them, but I don't think so.

Maybe when it concerns the Whites their empathy is just lowered due to the Guardian programming.

Valint said:
Eh, I think there are better possible explanations for "shapeshifters deeply care about what color skin you were born with" than "they're morons".

My head-canon (which may, of course, be completely wrong) is that it's not that they were born with skin of a particular shade, it's that being [White] or [Green] or [Red] is about being born with a certain mindset, one that you in part inherited from your parents in the womb, and the skin color is just a manifestation of who you are.

Perhaps being White means that you're warrior caste: Your enjoyment of conflict and crushing your enemies was a necessity way back when Mars was wild and unfriendly, but a detriment now that it's a peaceful communitarian society. Your mindset and values are simply different from most people around you, and they shun you because, on a pretty basic level, you live in a society that isn't designed for people like you, and there's good and solid reasons why everyone else has moved on from the kind of society you'd be happy in and doesn't want to go back to that.

To me, it would be more interesting if this is a conflict without the easy answer of "You're all being morons. Stop being morons. There, everything's solved!"

I don't think it was ever stated in this story or in the show that Whites were inherently violent like their comic counterparts.

Pez · Dec 23, 2020

rkyeun said:
Sword of the Stars II: Born of Blood called. They would like you to meet the Zuul.

I think I saw the Sword/Crest series a long time ago. I think I still have the HK subbed DVD's stored in a tote in my garage.

Valint said:
Eh, I think there are better possible explanations for "shapeshifters deeply care about what color skin you were born with" than "they're morons".

SNIP

To me, it would be more interesting if this is a conflict without the easy answer of "You're all being morons. Stop being morons. There, everything's solved!"

If only every conflict could be solved that easily. While your head-canon is interesting, it doesn't work with their society. If the Whites are their warriors, then there should be a history of that. Instead, they aren't. The Green's are, and apparently always have been. But who knows? The YJ Martian lore is pretty weak, other than "there's rampant racism".

Darko said:
Maybe when it concerns the Whites their empathy is just lowered due to the Guardian programming.

I don't think it was ever stated in this story or in the show that Whites were inherently violent like their comic counterparts.

This makes the most sense. When we first see M'gann, she's the cute and naive 'girl next door' type, who just wants to fit in. While she has no trouble brain blasting her own team to keep her secret, she does it out of fear, not aggression. And even though she gets mind-rapey years later, she eventually stops that practice.

The only other White we ever see is her brother in S3, who is violently working to change Mars (probably with Hyperclan, but it hasn't been name dropped). But the fact that M'gann's family is mixed shows that all Whites can't be aggressive by nature. M'gann certainly isn't.

Mental conditioning by the Guardians makes the most sense, but why would they do that? Creating a caste based race that would be rampant with racism/classism would go against their own principles. But it would explain why there's an inherent near-reverence towards "The Reds".

This is, of course, assuming that Burners existed in YJ, and that the Guardians messed with their biology. In this story, it's however Zoat fanwanks it.

Chaoswind · Dec 23, 2020

Actually as per the GUARDIAN in the crashed ship with the burning Martian, all of the sub types have the comportment and empathy the Guardians implanted, but the red ones are the least changed... So on Average reds are the ones that have less empathy/more logical of all the subtypes, white appear to be more emotional on average and the green ones are the middle ground... Even if I suspect their emotions are slightly weaker than Whites and that in exchange they got extra willpower.

Darko · Dec 23, 2020

Pez said:
I think I saw the Sword/Crest series a long time ago. I think I still have the HK subbed DVD's stored in a tote in my garage.

If only every conflict could be solved that easily. While your head-canon is interesting, it doesn't work with their society. If the Whites are their warriors, then there should be a history of that. Instead, they aren't. The Green's are, and apparently always have been. But who knows? The YJ Martian lore is pretty weak, other than "there's rampant racism".

This makes the most sense. When we first see M'gann, she's the cute and naive 'girl next door' type, who just wants to fit in. While she has no trouble brain blasting her own team to keep her secret, she does it out of fear, not aggression. And even though she gets mind-rapey years later, she eventually stops that practice.

The only other White we ever see is her brother in S3, who is violently working to change Mars (probably with Hyperclan, but it hasn't been name dropped). But the fact that M'gann's family is mixed shows that all Whites can't be aggressive by nature. M'gann certainly isn't.

Mental conditioning by the Guardians makes the most sense, but why would they do that? Creating a caste based race that would be rampant with racism/classism would go against their own principles. But it would explain why there's an inherent near-reverence towards "The Reds".

This is, of course, assuming that Burners existed in YJ, and that the Guardians messed with their biology. In this story, it's however Zoat fanwanks it.

They may have just wanted to get rid of the Burners and the racism thing was a side effect that they just didn't feel was necessary to deal with.

They have done some fairly worse things than just allowing racism to exist.

PDV · Dec 23, 2020

Pez said:
Mental conditioning by the Guardians makes the most sense, but why would they do that? Creating a caste based race that would be rampant with racism/classism would go against their own principles. But it would explain why there's an inherent near-reverence towards "The Reds".

Not to go full Inviolate, but the Burning Martians were terrifying. So them going overboard to ensure Martian society stayed permanently crippled and never attained the capacity to repair themselves back into Burners would be... still vile, but understandable, and in character.

Coda · Dec 23, 2020

Maxx Crowley said:
I swear to god.....if people who wanna argue with Zoat about the semantics of what amounts to a one off side character that literally doesn't matter in the slightest, and that gets Zoat to say something that runs afoul of the rules, and this piece of work gets kicked off this site...I am going to be pissed.

Fortunately the mods have made it clear that QQ doesn't particularly care what happens to fictional characters.

moralrelativity · Dec 23, 2020

Chojin Patriarch said:
Joy of conversational side-tracks...

That wasn't a conversational side track. Paul exercised diplomatic skills to establish a basis for trust and acceptable approach for the more official meeting to come. This is all in the service to Paul getting what he wants.

Valint · Dec 24, 2020

Darko said:
I don't think it was ever stated in this story or in the show that Whites were inherently violent like their comic counterparts.

They don't need to be inherently violent by human standards. The point is more that it would make sense to me if Whites and Greens really were different deep down, that it's not just about superficial skin color.

I mean, lets say, for example, that being a 'Green' meant that you were born with a mindset that liked peace and stability, and focused on cooperation and peaceful coexistence, whereas being 'White' meant that you were born valuing individual achievement and gaining strength through competition and struggle. It's not so much that your parents passed down a skin color, and more that you inherited an ideology and values as you formed in the womb.

None of that is bad, but you can understand how Greens wouldn't want to give Whites power or the ability to influence the direction the society goes, and would want to exclude them from a communal mindspace.

I'm not saying that any of this is forced by canon. I'm simply saying that the canon version of Martians doesn't really explain it, and saying "There's no explanation; they're just really dumb. Good thing the SI is there to tell them they're dumb!" is uninteresting to me.

Pez said:
If the Whites are their warriors, then there should be a history of that. Instead, they aren't.

Eh, considering how little we know about YJ Martian history, I'm dubious about our ability to make any statements about the Whites' place in society back 10,000 or 20,000 years ago.

Pez · Dec 24, 2020

Valint said:
Eh, considering how little we know about YJ Martian history, I'm dubious about our ability to make any statements about the Whites' place in society back 10,000 or 20,000 years ago.

I'm just saying - if, historically, the Whites were a warrior caste, it's unlikely that they would have been removed from that role. And if this racism isn't a new thing, then there's no way that the Martian leaders would have put the ones that they hated in a position of power.

But you'r right, we just don't know enough about them in the YJ universe.

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