With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

rkyeun · Jan 3, 2022

AmericanNumbers said:
I mean if I were Demon Superman, John Constantine would in my top 5 "Must kill" list.

Ah, but if you were Demon Superman, then Regular Demon John Constantine and Demon Regular John Constantine would be your friends. Sorta kinda. As far as that goes with demons.

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 3, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
16th September 2012
18:14 GMT -4

"There was no sign that I could see. One day the greatest, most noble man I knew simply… Took leave of his reason."

Diana hesitates for a moment, then presses on. Egeria appears to have cleared her schedule, because this meeting of the government of Themyscira assembled very quickly once I made it known that Diana wanted to meet them. In addition to the Archon herself there's the local Wonder Woman, Philippus, leading priestesses, senators and even Magala lurking in the background.

Basically, anyone with legislative power amongst the Amazons, eh? No doubt expecting to have to debate whether the Amazons will have to march to war or not. And more importantly, against who.

"He tore apart his home city, killing many of those who were his friends. Then he rose into the sky and laid waste to the entire world. Themysicra was… Burned. There were no survivors."

"No idea why, at all?"

Of course, we readers know why: A Kryptonian demon named Rakkar. But without some way of them knowing about that, it must have seemed like he just snapped...

"From the overwhelming power of the demonic magic that now blankets the world, I think that he was somehow possessed." She shakes her head. "The few magic users who weren't driven mad by the sudden change in Earth's magic systems… He killed them during out counterattack."

"I'm sorry to press you like this, but if there was any indication of which demon, or who might have conjured it, or anything that would help banish it…"

Of course, there's no reason to assume anything outside of Earth's Hell had anything to do with it, after all...

She gives her head a small shake.

"Zatanna tried to discover its name. She could not find a match in any of her tomes. Jason Blood conjured demons to interrogate, and none of them knew either. Perhaps… Perhaps it was not a demon, but some combination of telepathic control and mutagen?"

Which are also concerns for someone as powerful as Superman. Remember Maxwell Lord? Or Poison Ivy's brief period in control of him during the 'Hush' storyline? Which is why he has arrangements with Batman to take him down if need be...

"How did you end up with the crown?"

"I don't clearly remember. I remember being defeated by Superman, and then everything is a blur of fury and madness."

Best to leave it that way too. I don't think you want to remember those times clearly...

"Can you stomach working with the local Nazis in order to defeat him?"

"I will have to. A reckoning for them will come eventually."

...With who? The hundred-year-old men who led during the war? Most of those alive today were children at the time, or not even born...

"Could we not have a reckoning and instead use the fact that they're having peaceful contact with other cultures who don't share their viewpoint to encourage a gradual social reform process?" She looks mildly puzzled. "We're going to be working with their version of Superman, and while he's fully aware of how bad Nazi society is he isn't quite ready to sign off on burning the whole system down."

...And 'Sins of the Father' is not a thing even for Amazon justice, as far as I know...

Philippus frowns. "One man devastated a world? I'm sorry, Princess,-"

That title gets her a few looks.

Heh, this is one occasion where she could use it sarcastically and not feel bad about it...

"-but I don't see how that's possible."

"Superman's strength puts Herakles to shame. His endurance would put Atlas to shame, and his swiftness…"

Best to group him into 'God-like power' and leave it there. Without them seeing it first-hand...

Diana pushes her chair back, stands, and then floats into the air. About half the audience check her feet, presumably looking for the Demon Earth version of the Sandals. And then she's gone, reappearing on the other side of the room to the stares of the crowd.

"The Five blessed me with abilities far greater than those of mortal women. I can move with supernatural speed when I must. Superman usually holds himself back to avoid causing unnecessary harm." She lands and walks slowly back, making eye contact with each member of the audience as she does. "He did not hold back during our fight."

It's a scary thing, when he, as the DCAU version puts it, is able to cut loose in a world of cardboard.

I nod, generating a small stone tower construct. "Unlike Herakles, Superman has natural flight. If Herakles wants to destroy a building and he punches it-"

I make a construct Herakles and have him punch the tower.

Unless he's harder than the stone is, it would hurt like hell...

"-he goes flying because he can't grip the ground well enough to keep his feet."

The tower cracks slightly and Herakles goes flying backwards. Artemis and Philippus nod, both being familiar with the Gauntlets. Most of the others look to them for confirmation.

The joy of physics. And the reason most super-strong guys tend to be really big and heavy or have some kind of flight power...

"Superman can fly faster than sound. If he wants to destroy a building-"

An orange blur strikes the tower, which collapses to rubble.

The joy of being tougher than most things on Earth. Who needs energy blasts when you can be the missile?

"-that happens. Now image that rather than a building, he flew into the ground hard enough to make the ground shake."

I pull the image out and show a city of towers falling.

Best illustrated in this clip from 'GI Joe: Retaliation'... If a little exaggerated. Physics doesn't play quite as nice in that respect as people think it does (The general consensus I could find about that situation was: big, narrow hole, some mild tremors.) But, OL is illustrating the destructive potential, not reality...

"Or punches straight through it to the magma beneath."

I pull the image out further and show the likely outcome of Kal-El punching through the planet's crust. Dust and rock fly into the atmosphere, magma vomits free and the land is levelled for miles around.

In other words, a hand-made volcano.

"And then you've got the knock-on effect on the atmosphere. Civilisation is only ever two meals from collapse, and enough dust in the upper atmosphere and you can go years without sun."

"He was more inclined to use heat vision or throw things." Diana retakes her seat. "But the point is well-made."

I suspect not even she thought about those possibilities...

Egeria nods. "That is frightful power to be in any man's hands. What aid do you want?"

"There would be little point in bringing an army. But if-" Diana makes eye contact with Wonder Woman 10, who nods. "-your Wonder Woman will accompany me, it will greatly improve our ability to fight through the corrupted warriors who will oppose our attacks."

Good point. Unless every one of the Amazons is equivalent to a Dannered soldier, they'll just be fodder, especially if Demon-Superman takes to the field.

"And Superman himself?"

"Basically, prepare banishment effects before we go in, then let Superman Sixteen and Overman pin him in place while we use them. I've also got weapons that he's weak against, but I'm a little reluctant to just kill someone that full of demon magic in case the result is worse than leaving him there. We haven't planned in any detail yet because we still don't know what resources we're going to have available."

And whether their magic from here will work there. While Earth's thaumosphere is reasonably consistent across dimensions (as seen by OL's habitual Rune-stone checks,) I'm sure there are dangerous subtleties that you don't want to run into mid-exorcism...

Hm.

"Speaking of that, can I borrow your smiths for a few hours? I've learned a lot about armour transmutation, but I can't do that part of the forging process myself. I-" I look at Diana. "-doubt that you really want to go into a fight wearing demonic armour."

No, not that smart an idea at all. For all she knows, there were spells on it that could shut her down even if she broke loose of the helmet's control. Best to go in with fresh gear.

"Have you made armor for the version of me from your world?"

"It was a team effort with Io, Ted Kord and an Atlantean thaumaturgist named Sephtian. The armour will still be good without Sephtian, it just won't have some extra magic effects." I shrug. "I can also make you a sword, but… It depends on what sort of proportion of the possessed people you think can be saved."

Perhaps some manner of mace might work better... Though that's got its own issues (super-strength-friendly metal club versus squishy human bones, anyone?) and she's probably not as well trained with blunt weaponry.

She nods solemnly. "It is a hard decision, but I believe that saving what is left of my world must come before saving my friends and comrades."

I nod. "Rightoh. Sword and shield then?" She nods, and I turn to the other Artemis. "And for you?"

Or does she plan to go over there in a corset and pteruges? (Just.. picture that with a ludicrously long ginger topknot...) I would at least hope she intends to break out the heavy armour.

"I am content with the weapons which I already have."

Egeria nods. "Io will be able to work with you on creating your armour. Is that all?"

I suppose she's glad the potential political hot-potato is planning to leave quickly...

"It would be really helpful if Magala could help with opening the portal. We've got one guy recovering in hospital who knows how they work, and the Reich doesn't encourage magic study."

Egeria looks back and Magala, who nods reluctantly. Diana smiles at her.

"Then we are ready to begin."

And I picture Magala thinking 'Oh, I'm too old for this shit...'

Well... I guess the 'arming up' montage will take place off-camera. Unless we get a scene of Io fangirling over the sheer purity of OL's material supply. Still, let's hope they can prepare well enough before the next portal opens. Though with any luck, it'll be opening to let through Superman-16 and the local Over-family. Because they are still over there, right under Wolf Kreiger's nose...

Darko · Jan 3, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
With who? The hundred-year-old men who led during the war? Most of those alive today were children at the time, or not even born...

True, though they are still upholding the policies of their predecessors, like killing those they view as subhuman and putting others in crappy reservations.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And 'Sins of the Father' is not a thing even for Amazon justice, as far as I know...

They are an ancient warrior society, so sins of the father may very well be a thing.

RichardWhereat · Jan 3, 2022

hance1986 said:
Personally I'm hoping Demon Superman is defeated or exorcised or both, destroyed as a threat. Then OL moves the Earth 10 Africans and the E-10 Dr. Mist to the former Demon Earth to start trying to rebuild their lives, and also any Nazi Earth dissident or minority who honestly wants out. Also contact Paul Freeman on Nazi Earth, get him moved and set up with his ring and a working power lantern and have him be the OL for these survivors and new colonists to rebuild this Earth. Also have the Earth-10 Amazons move over too.

Basically leave the Nazis with themselves and any other like minded scumbags. Without new enemies and subhumans to fight, eventually the Reich will eat itself.

Nah, bring former Demon Superman to Earth 10 to destroy the Nazi's, and plunder the reich to rebuild Africa.

Radix · Jan 3, 2022

Chaoswind said:
This is indeed correct its very likely the Paul's that got caught were either in a moment of weakness or just not that strong to begin with.

The strongest Orange was our Paul and he was attacked when he was wearing a pink ring, the strongest yellow had no lantern to recharge so probably got caught because of that, we know Grayven (having both orange and yellow) fought the attack off.

Common Sense was in the lower end of the power scale for orange.

I believe Anti green, Raúl and Buffy Paul weren't caught so I don't know if they count.

Although Time Trapper did try and recruit our Paul for a reason. He is temporal counterparts with Trapper, so that could be relevent. But to fight Krona I think he would have gone for ability. Especoally since he could grab weaker key members after Krona is defeated.

So it is likely that Paragon could indeed be a Paragon of ability among the Pauls, at least in regards to ability in utilizing Orange Light. He is the only enlightened Orange we have seen. And Raul managed to get his enlightenment as well afterwards.

Handlewithcare · Jan 3, 2022

At this point I hope they kill the possessed Superman.

Imagine being excorcised and having to live with what you did. And he won't kill himself and will try to do penance instead.

RichardWhereat · Jan 3, 2022

Handlewithcare said:
Imagine being excorcised and having to live with what you did. And he won't kill himself and will try to do penance instead.

Penance like wiping out the Nazi regime that still rules and subjugates on another earth? Noice. If he wants to end himself afterwards...

ForeverShogo · Jan 3, 2022

I don't really see how that can be called penance. To do such a thing would require that he kill so many people that you'd just be asking him to add more genocide to his plate of sin/guilt.

The only crime most of these people have even committed is being born into a country that already did most of its fucked up stuff before they were ever born.

Even expecting them to eat themselves alive if OL did round up the minorities and put them on another Earth seems a bit much to me. Like, if these were normal Nazis with normal tech? Well, beyond the fact that they wouldn't control the world, I could see them eating themselves alive without someone to shit on.

But in this world? Where cheating their way to global supremacy and abundance with Kryptonian tech was a thing? Where Overman has already been doing what he can, limited though it may be, to improve things such that the people of the Reich are said to have utopic living conditions? Expecting them to turn in on themselves like that is wishful thinking at best.

RichardWhereat · Jan 3, 2022

And continuing the subjugation and oppression of non Aryans.

Mr Zoat · Jan 3, 2022

hance1986 said:
' our '

moralrelativity said:
image -> imagine

Thank you, corrected.

AmericanNumbers said:
I mean if I were Demon Superman, John Constantine would in my top 5 "Must kill" list.

I don't think he's ever heard of him.

Stsword · Jan 3, 2022

PDV said:
Huh, maybe that's where the Dresden Codak guy got his take. Did a whole 'reboot' of the Justice League, their villains, and the Bat-Family; WW was a marble statue animated by divine relics and a prayer for a defender. (The rest were pretty interesting as well, except the Cyborg was a little self-indulgent. Flash from India with some of Kid Flash's problems, Manhunter who is a biological nanobot swarm, Supes who's not natively humanoid and prefers working-class unionism to 'the American way', Power Girl who's a Cadmus labs plant.)

Perhaps, or perhaps both went to Pandora's mythological cousin Pygmalian's Galatea.

If one wanted to be creative there was a simulacrum of Hera made from Clouds by Ixion, so one could do a Red Tornado/WW amalgam where instead of carved from clay young Diana was effectively an air elemental.

Old Knife said:
Thought she was a daughter of Zeus/Hippolyta.

First of all, Neron killed WW in the 90s so that's New Earth, second of all the version of WW that is the daughter of Zeus was not a god herself until she killed Ares to become the Goddess of War, so her origin is irrelevant to this anyway.

Which is mythologically correct, Hercules became a god upon his death, so demigod status is no barrier to apotheosis.

Highlandering gods to become a god of their domain is not historical as far as I can remember, but since the myths say that Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus drew lots to determine their domains, hypothetically there could be a universe with Hades the Skyfather, Poseidon the God of the Underworld, and Zeus the sea god.

Steelplaza · Jan 3, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Could we not have a reckoning and instead use the fact that they're having peaceful contact with other cultures who don't share their viewpoint to encourage a gradual social reform process?"

The SI keeps banging this drum even after having talked to Balewa a couple of hours ago and being shown some of the ongoing harm from Nazi domination. 666-Wonder Woman already agreed to work with them for now; I don't see why he needs to be the Nazi PR man about all the "gradual social reform" they might or might not decide to do, at their own time and pace.

You know, I was doing some rereading of old chapters a few weeks ago. Remember on when the SI visited that Green Light monastery and he was talking to that Green Lantern, I forget her name, who really, really wanted to break the Spider Guild? The SI made her walk through her actual plans to do so, the likely response, and admit that it probably wasn't actually going to work. She couldn't apply sufficient pressure on her own, despite the power of a Green Lantern. It would be nice if at some point he was able to do the same with Karl. Yes, it's great that Overman feels kind of bad about things, but does he have an actual plan to fix them that has any possibility of working? Because if not and if he truly can't bring himself to "burn down the system", then at the very least it's worth considering whether whatever gradual social reform he thinks he's pushing is worth however much his mere existence is propping up the Reich. How can anyone in power feel pressure to change if at the end of the day Overman will fight to sustain the system whether it reforms or not?

Bud-E · Jan 3, 2022

Steelplaza said:
The SI keeps banging this drum even after having talked to Balewa a couple of hours ago and being shown some of the ongoing harm from Nazi domination. 666-Wonder Woman already agreed to work with them for now; I don't see why he needs to be the Nazi PR man about all the "gradual social reform" they might or might not decide to do, at their own time and pace.

You know, I was doing some rereading of old chapters a few weeks ago. Remember on when the SI visited that Green Light monastery and he was talking to that Green Lantern, I forget her name, who really, really wanted to break the Spider Guild? The SI made her walk through her actual plans to do so, the likely response, and admit that it probably wasn't actually going to work. She couldn't apply sufficient pressure on her own, despite the power of a Green Lantern. It would be nice if at some point he was able to do the same with Karl. Yes, it's great that Overman feels kind of bad about things, but does he have an actual plan to fix them that has any possibility of working? Because if not and if he truly can't bring himself to "burn down the system", then at the very least it's worth considering whether whatever gradual social reform he thinks he's pushing is worth however much his mere existence is propping up the Reich. How can anyone in power feel pressure to change if at the end of the day Overman will fight to sustain the system whether it reforms or not?

I fully agree!

Istaran · Jan 3, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Then we are ready to begin."

Commence the montage!

LazySloth13 · Jan 3, 2022

I figure the reason Paul has to repeatedly tell WW or anyone that what the Nazis did is terrible but things have reached a point that the only way to fix things would be mass genocide, total mind control over everyone to rewrite their thinking patterns, and how most of the people responsible are either dead or their death change nothing. Especially when they're in the middle of preventing a demonic invasion from crossing over to another universe and growing stronger.

Sure she may have agreed to help but he can't tell for sure that one wrong comment or action may set her off and start killing their tenuous allies, similarly to how Flash killed the Sheeda Queen when under the domain of guest rights offered by Lord Malvolo, which may make things harder since Overman and Overgirl may have come to the realization that the Nazi ideology is wrong they still have people they care about or a duty to protect them.

Once the demonic threat is dealt with Paul will immediately start trying to help people escape Earth-10, maybe convince Karl to move dimensions to help Earth 666 and its inhabitant recover, there's also recruiting him into LEGION to help against the Reach. He should definitely mark Earth-10 as a parallel world to monitor and defend against once the dimensional blockers are reactivated.

Zig · Jan 3, 2022

hance1986 said:
Personally I'm hoping Demon Superman is defeated or exorcised or both, destroyed as a threat. Then OL moves the Earth 10 Africans and the E-10 Dr. Mist to the former Demon Earth to start trying to rebuild their lives, and also any Nazi Earth dissident or minority who honestly wants out. Also contact Paul Freeman on Nazi Earth, get him moved and set up with his ring and a working power lantern and have him be the OL for these survivors and new colonists to rebuild this Earth. Also have the Earth-10 Amazons move over too.

Basically leave the Nazis with themselves and any other like minded scumbags. Without new enemies and subhumans to fight, eventually the Reich will eat itself.

Firstly, new lgbtq people will be born so they'll have that. If that's not enough, there's always more subdivision. "White" has not been consistently defined throughout history. There'd be precedent for saying Italians and Irish aren't white people, and that's before you get into the "honorary aryan" thing they did for some countries. There's always gonna be people to oppress, nazis gonna nazi.

Steelplaza · Jan 3, 2022

LazySloth13 said:
I figure the reason Paul has to repeatedly tell WW or anyone that what the Nazis did is terrible but things have reached a point that the only way to fix things would be mass genocide, total mind control over everyone to rewrite their thinking patterns, and how most of the people responsible are either dead or their death change nothing.

Is that really true though? I bet a mere violent revolution that throws off German military domination of most of the world would do a great deal to improve things. We've seen that even Italy, one of the nations that's most on "top" as a result of Nazi victory, is straining on the leash. I'm that most of the world would be happy to take the Kryptonian technology and wave goodbye to having to conform to Nazi social policy and running their internal affairs past Nazi approval. That doesn't require mass genocide or mind control. Yeah, there would be some leftover social conditioning, but the only to the extent that today's India is "British".

Pointing again to things internal to this story, consider that Lantern Xor just successfully prosecuted an armed revolt that overthrew the government of his own world. It didn't take genocide or mind control. He just got together a bunch of soldiers with different, hopefully better, ideas on how things should be run and launched a good old fashioned coup.

Radix · Jan 3, 2022

Not to mention they are anti-scientific. And it is only a matter of time before some of them want to finish the job.

The idea that they arent really doing anything harmful right now is laughable.

Darko · Jan 3, 2022

Steelplaza said:
Is that really true though? I bet a mere violent revolution that throws off German military domination of most of the world would do a great deal to improve things. We've seen that even Italy, one of the nations that's most on "top" as a result of Nazi victory, is straining on the leash. I'm that most of the world would be happy to take the Kryptonian technology and wave goodbye to having to conform to Nazi social policy and running their internal affairs past Nazi approval. That doesn't require mass genocide or mind control. Yeah, there would be some leftover social conditioning, but the only to the extent that today's India is "British".

Pointing again to things internal to this story, consider that Lantern Xor just successfully prosecuted an armed revolt that overthrew the government of his own world. It didn't take genocide or mind control. He just got together a bunch of soldiers with different, hopefully better, ideas on how things should be run and launched a good old fashioned coup.

True, but as far as we know the problem with Xor's planet was due to the government. We don't see how the civilians feel about things.

On this world most people, not just the government or the military, believe in the Nazi ideology, so removing the government or military may not do much since most people would still believe in Nazism.

Chaoswind · Jan 3, 2022

Darko said:
True, but as far as we know the problem with Xor's planet was due to the government. We don't see how the civilians feel about things.

On this world most people, not just the government or the military, believe in the Nazi ideology, so removing the government or military may not do much since most people would still believe in Nazism.

The Nazi Germans believe in their ideology, that is the issue with Nationalism flavored Nazism, the Italians obviously do no share the belief of Aryan/German supremacy, neither do the Japanese, or any other nation that hasn't been grounded to dust. This world is a powder keg held together by the overwhelming technological advantage held by the Nazis, something they didn't even earn or develop themselves so they are unlikely to command an ounce of respect for actually holding said technological advantage.

The moment Nazi domination is contested or shaken is the moment this whole world goes to hell again, it's probably why the Nazi can't really count on anyone helping them even their "allies" aren't really allies.

Earth 10 is a house of cards and I see absolutely no point in propping them.

If Paul WANTS to help Earth 10, then he should let the Nazi fight and fail to force them to seek the help of the other nations that exist under their boots. Balewa has the right idea, let Nazi win or lose on their merits, if they are unable to seek help to defend themselves from demons then let them fall.

Flightless Man · Jan 3, 2022

I dunno, I see the Paul wanting his allies to work together, more as a "Wait until I go home, I'm not getting my Earth involved in a war with Demon and Nazi Earth at the same time." His arguements really only seem strong enough to make people shut up for a few days.

Edi: Heck, it could be as simple as Paul wants Overgirl to stay on his Earth and not fight a war on hers. He cares about her more than her entire world.

Old Knife · Jan 3, 2022

hance1986 said:
Personally I'm hoping Demon Superman is defeated or exorcised or both, destroyed as a threat. Then OL moves the Earth 10 Africans and the E-10 Dr. Mist to the former Demon Earth to start trying to rebuild their lives, and also any Nazi Earth dissident or minority who honestly wants out. Also contact Paul Freeman on Nazi Earth, get him moved and set up with his ring and a working power lantern and have him be the OL for these survivors and new colonists to rebuild this Earth. Also have the Earth-10 Amazons move over too.

Basically leave the Nazis with themselves and any other like minded scumbags. Without new enemies and subhumans to fight, eventually the Reich will eat itself.

The Reich has mostly stabilized. There is a good chance they'll simply go isolationist Wakandan. Problem is how much territory they control.
So less like Wakanda more or less Krypton 2 basically.

.... And now I feel bad for them. Send them to Maltus. All the mutants, beastmen,orcs, ratmen and chaos degenerates to hate on and destroy.

No one deserves to be Krypton. That civilization was in a bottle long before Brainiac stuffed Kandor in a mason jar.

Only place worse is Daxam where they're techphobic AND have a lame weakness.

Caerwen · Jan 4, 2022

Zig said:
Firstly, new lgbtq people will be born so they'll have that. If that's not enough, there's always more subdivision. "White" has not been consistently defined throughout history. There'd be precedent for saying Italians and Irish aren't white people, and that's before you get into the "honorary aryan" thing they did for some countries. There's always gonna be people to oppress, nazis gonna nazi.

Spontaneous birth defects are not going to go away either. They must be killing a few little people and hemophiliacs every year. Even if they somehow stopped encountering birth defects or people discovering they had mental problems as they entered their adult years. They would always have an expanding list of what they considered 'defective' in their pursuit of 'perfection'

Michael Vonica · Jan 4, 2022

Caerwen said:
Spontaneous birth defects are not going to go away either. They must be killing a few little people and hemophiliacs every year. Even if they somehow stopped encountering birth defects or people discovering they had mental problems as they entered their adult years. They would always have an expanding list of what they considered 'defective' in their pursuit of 'perfection'

And that's not even to mention the opportunities such practices give for falsely accusing one's enemies and their families.

Steelplaza · Jan 4, 2022

Oh hey, remember when all those Danner enhanciles took over Brazil? Why could Orange Lantern simply not explain to them that with with time and peaceful exposure to other cultures, surely the Brazilian government will undergo a gradual social reform process that will result in tribal rights being respected?

Heh. Look, I'm not actually up in arms about the SI or demanding that he personally take action. It's a big multiverse, and he'd never get anything done in his own universe if he tried to correct every injustice. If he thinks the Nazi Empire is probably no more bad than the Dominators or other alien empires he's prepared to tolerate in his own universe, well that's fair enough. Right now he wants to get Demon Earth under control and stop them invading other earths since they've already demonstrated a willingness invade the SI's universe. If or when Nazi Earth starts invading other Earths (and what do you think they're planning to do with that trans-dimensional technology if they perfect it?), then I'm sure Paul will treat them the same way.

But like I said, I do feel like these last few chapters on Themyscira he's fallen a little bit too much into the role of talking about "there's not much we can do about it now" and "could we not have a reckoning" to people who in fact could something about it now and have a reasonable case about the need for a reckoning.

I hold my hands up. "I'm not trying to defend the Nazis. Just… Him, personally. He was an adolescent, fighting for his country. He wasn't really in any position to reflect on what happens and I know that he bitterly regrets it now. I'd rather than he hadn't fought -the alternate version of my original home nation was on the losing side- but there's not much we can do about it now."

"Can you stomach working with the local Nazis in order to defeat him?"

"I will have to. A reckoning for them will come eventually."

"Could we not have a reckoning and instead use the fact that they're having peaceful contact with other cultures who don't share their viewpoint to encourage a gradual social reform process?" She looks mildly puzzled. "We're going to be working with their version of Superman, and while he's fully aware of how bad Nazi society is he isn't quite ready to sign off on burning the whole system down."

Because I mean....

"We are barred from having any technology judged to be 'outside of our cultural milieu'. Anything from Europe is banned. Anything from Asia is banned. The most productive farmlands are taken by white settlers while we are driven into reservations like this."

I frown. "How do they judge whether a thing is 'European-?" I shake my head. "Sorry, for a moment there I forgot we were talking about Nazis."

"It depends. In some places, anything that is not in copyright will be accepted. In others, even the wheel is prohibited. It depends on how vindictively the local Group Leader of the African SS wishes to behave."

The fact is, "let's kick the Nazis out of Africa" is a perfectly cromulent position and probably a lot more doable than "let's evacuate an entire continent through portals to another world". And hey, you don't need to stop at Africa. Kick 'em out of Asia, kick 'em out of North America, kick 'em out of South America and wherever else they've got their jackboots on people's neck. If "the people believe in National Socialist philosophy" is true to any extent (and it's not like anyone is taking any polls we can trust on the subject) then you got to think "the people" is limited to people the Nazis count as people... which excludes an awful lot of people! And realistically it's probably mostly true for Greater Germany in Europe and a bunch of collaborators in various countries; I'm sure there's a lot of people the Nazis do count as people who think "well fascism has brought benefits, but I'd still like my country to be ruled by our own, not answer to Germany".

And again, it's not the SI's job to launch this war for freedom, but it's not his job to talk people out of launching a war for freedom instead. Maybe instead of going with "nothing can be done," Themyscira would like to make contact with Balewa would like to make contact with others who might be able to call on magic and see just how sturdy the German Empire actually is and how weak they might be to an alliance of magic using groups supporting dissidents in countries all over the world. Maybe there should be a reckoning, not over the Holocaust but about stuff going on in the current time frame. The SI is welcome to take an entirely neutral position about it instead of saying that something can or can't be done, or suggesting that evacuation to flee ther German Empire is the only solution.

Okay, I think I've pretty much said my piece on the subject. Again, not saying the SI is obligated to launch a one man war, just that I don't think he should be trying to broker any peace beyond the most temporary of ceasefires.

mastermenthe · Jan 4, 2022

Steelplaza said:
Okay, I think I've pretty much said my piece on the subject. Again, not saying the SI is obligated to launch a one man war, just that I don't think he should be trying to broker any peace beyond the most temporary of ceasefires.

You seem very good at ignoring subtleties.

Paragon is lying to everyone on Earth 10, deliberately.
Paragon is pretending to play peacemaker so that people don't fight eachother until he can fix the problem, at which point Paragon will wash his hands of the whole mess and lock the door behind him.

Please accept that the protagonist and the narrator are both able and willing to lie.

Chaoswind · Jan 4, 2022

mastermenthe said:
You seem very good at ignoring subtleties.

Paragon is lying to everyone on Earth 10, deliberately.
Paragon is pretending to play peacemaker so that people don't fight eachother until he can fix the problem, at which point Paragon will wash his hands of the whole mess and lock the door behind him.

Please accept that the protagonist and the narrator are both able and willing to lie.

If that were the truth then the Paragon wouldn't even bother getting the Nazis or anyone from Earth 10 on his side. He has enough powerful people and disposable forces in earth 16 (people that he can tolerate to lose) to stomp on demon Superman or just destroy earth 666 ability to invade earth 16.

He isn't lying, he just wants a favorable enough outcome that he can wash his hands from and call it quits, he wants the Amazon's to play nice with the Nazis because he doesn't want to have that weight on his conscience when he leaves.

Balewa had the right idea, if the Nazis are too proud to ask the people they are stomping with their jack boots for help then Paul shouldn't really be helping them.

The Nazi leadership already knows the nature of their enemies as demon corrupted armies from a different parallel, if they can't even swallow their pride long enough to ask a few black/asian/American magic users to seal the demon portals, then they deserve to be bloodied and destroyed. Either the Nazis of Earth 10 overcome their toxic ideology to unify the planetary defenses against an enemy they can actually easily defeat if united (unlike a dedicated war fleet bombing earth 10) or they crumble on their own.

Let them bleed themselves, they will ask for help when they get desperate and if they don't then the rest of the world will do so on their own eventually.

Michael Vonica · Jan 4, 2022

mastermenthe said:
You seem very good at ignoring subtleties.

Paragon is lying to everyone on Earth 10, deliberately.
Paragon is pretending to play peacemaker so that people don't fight eachother until he can fix the problem, at which point Paragon will wash his hands of the whole mess and lock the door behind him.

Please accept that the protagonist and the narrator are both able and willing to lie.

My problem with idea of Paragon lying is that, despite the readers being able to see what Paragon is thinking, Paragon never recognizes the fact that he is lying. While this doesn't mean that he isn't lying, it would be weird that there are no clues towards that idea. As for the idea that it would be stupid of him to try gradual and peaceful reform of Nazi Earth, I don't think Paragon cares all that much about Nazi Earth. He cares much more about Overman and his goals.

Rather than go for the most effective route towards improving the lives of as many people on Earth -10 as possible, I think that Paragon would rather work peacefully with Overman and Angelica, to cement a good relationship with them. Because he cares about that more. And that involves discouraging others from making a move before first talking to Overman about it. Of course, that doesn't rule out trying to have a discussion on the most practical method of fixing society with Overman.

Edit: One more thing to add. With Xor, Paragon didn't care all that much about the Alliance either. The reason why Paragon took the direct approach there was because Xor wanted to take the direct approach, and Paragon valued his connection with Xor enough to invest himself into the issue. Not that I think Paragon had any issue with the methods used or results achieved.

Prince Charon · Jan 4, 2022

Let's remember that Paul is still a Utilitarian, and one with what a lot of us see as a pretty alien point-of-view. He's also Avarice-enlightened, and most of the people from Earth 10 and Earth 666 are in no way his people.

Mr Zoat · Jan 4, 2022

16th September 2012
23:37 GMT +1

Atom Man watches as I bring the plane construct in to land on the Wewelsburg landing area. Diana looks godly in her golden orichalcum armour, even if she's going to reek of sweat in an hour or so. Wonder Woman 10 -her name's Artemis, and I kind of remember an Amazon by that name- looks like a Wonder Woman.

"Orange Lantern. You were successful, or are these friends from your home country?"

"Both. Allow me to properly introduce Princess Diana of Themyscira Six Six Six-" A number which was just asking for something like this to happen. "-and Artemis of Themyscira Ten."

He regards them each for a moment.

"And what is their racial background?"

…

Because he's a Nazi. I sigh internally and scan Artemis.

"Ah… The red head appears to be a mixture of Middle-Eastern and European descent and the Princess is… Clay brought to life by the Hellenistic gods, so I don't know what that counts as?"

"A golem? I've had bad experiences-."

"Wrong god. Look, do you have some sort of museum for equipment taken from Allied superheroes during the Second World War?"

"Museum? No. We have research laboratories, but everything from the Second Great War has been studied extensively. Anything that wasn't destroyed would be in secure storage."

"Can you check whether that includes a golden lasso? You were right, there was a Wonder Woman who fought for the allies, and if any of her equipment survived-."

"Then we would keep it and not return it to the allies of our former enemies."

"Have you checked? Because if you haven't got it, then this will be a pointless argument."

"Hold on." He's quiet for several moments. "Yes. Ah. Under the circumstances, I believe that we can release it to you."

"Oh?"

"It appears to be a magic artefact, and causes psychological harm to anyone who touches it. We tried to destroy it several times."

"Don't try and destroy it. I've seen what happens, it's not good."

"The researchers got interested when they couldn't, but they couldn't get a sample of the material. It's actually on the site, if-."

There's a bang and a crash and shouts from somewhere south of us, then Diana and Artemis fly back onto the landing pad. Diana has the lasso twisted around her right arm and Artemis dusts some brick dust off her right shoulder.

"I have it."

"Diana, I understand how important the lasso is in Amazon culture, but we're going to have to persuade groups of people who don't like each other to work together to make this work, and it would be helpful if you didn't demolish their buildings."

"No, no." Atom Man is studying her. "National Socialist ideology respects strength. And she's the first person we've seen who could wield it since the original Wonder Woman. It's worthwhile data."

Artemis narrows her eyes. "You aren't getting it back."

"Artemis, were you listening to me? We haven't agreed any terms, and committing yourself to a position at this point…"

She floats upwards and then shoots into the air with a sneer.

"I'm sorry about-."

Atom Man's eyes follow her as she vanishes from sight.

"No, no, that's fine. Is she married?"

Diana's jaw tightens.

"Um. I.. didn't think-."

"She's European. It doesn't matter if she comes from an isolated island somewhere. She can learn culture."

"I don't think it would work, and please leave off pursuing her until after the mission is complete."

"Who is in command here?"

Atom Man turns back to Diana. "The Bat. But he's an old man and he's in bed. Donner should have heard-."

Ms. Brauer lands on the landing pad, clenches her fists as she sees Diana and then relaxes slightly as she sees me.

"Lantern?"

"Restoring Diana was completely successful. Glad to see that you're feeling better. I also got a magic user, though one of my-"

Magala nervously sticks her head out of the construct aircraft.

"-other possibles turned me down."

Ms. Brauer walks up to Diana and extends her right hand.

"Hallo. I'm Donner."

Diana steps forward to shake the proffered limb. "Diana. Will you be taking part in the attack?"

"That's what I'm for. Is the lasso part of the plan for defeating the Over Overman?"

"It might be. The lasso is unbreakable. We might be able to use it to restrain Superman." She turns to me. "What do you mean, you know what happens if it breaks?"

"The concept of truth breaks down and reality becomes perception. Please don't break it. And please accept that however much you don't like it, if someone bound by it says something then they're speaking the truth."

"That sounded specific. How do you know-?"

"This isn't my first parallel universe. Things happen. Donner, is the wizard awake yet?"

"Yes, but he's not very coherent."

Diana nods. "I will talk to him. Perhaps our shared experiences will enable me able to reach him."

"I'll prepare a ritual space for him to work. Atom Man, can you tell the garrison commander to work with me? I suspect that we'll need fortifications, and I imagine you'd prefer it if they weren't AI controlled."

"I will do that. Will we need human sacrifices?"

"I… Really hope not?"

"I ask because we don't have any detainment centres near here, so if you want them here within an hour we should notify them now."

"Let's-. Let's not jump the gun. I'll get to work."

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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