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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Is the implication that Paul, when deciding on who he would and would not be willing to accept as a daughter, considers the amount of effort required? So Princess was off the table because she was a child, and Paul would have been required to actually invest himself in her care and upbringing? That's a pretty utilitarian way of deciding who and who not to enter into an unconditional relationship with. Or maybe you mean something else, and it just flew over my head. My point is not that Paul should or should not pursue a familial relationship with this or that character. I'm simply pointing out that Paul's own reasoning of taking responsibility for something that he only has the flimsiest of connections to is just false, and that the explanation is much more likely to be that Paul simply wants to be involved with this demon lady, more so than he wanted to be involved with Princess. Or he's just joking, I can't tell.
No, as in, if Princess was his daughter then he would have failed in his responsibilities.
 
Anyway, Mahzikeen is a daughter of Lilith, a lilim.

Green Lantern implied that the Ophidian was the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Which I find hella stupid myself, but Zoat is apparently more fond of the idea.

So what could be more appropriate than a demon being the child of Lilith and the Serpent?

Mechanically, in Lucifer, Mahzikeen's inheritance from her father was being able to swallow venom without issue and then projectile vomit the face eating acid into her sibling's face, right before she murders him. Which is really more of a Red Lantern move. Mahzikeen would probably make an excellent Red Lantern, she seems like she's been angry for thousands of years now.
 
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Anyway, Mahzikeen is a daughter of lilith, a lilim.

Green Lantern implied that the Ophidian was the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Which I find hella stupid myself, but Zoat is apparently more fond of the idea.

So what could be more appropriate than a demon being the child of Lilith and the Serpent?
Where was this said? Were the other emotional elementals on earth during biblical times?
 
Where was this said? Were the other emotional elementals on earth during biblical times?

Nowhere, as I typed, implied.

1594042-green_lantern_52___originofentitie___copy.jpg


So yeah that's the Ophidian slithering in an apple tree.

Truly a mystery what inference we're supposed to get from that. :)
 
Technically, it's diabolus ex machina. Also has anyone ever told you you're fun at parties?


Now, I'm sure almost everyone here can see why that's a problem.

But for those who can't, constantly re-writing already existing things so your character is more and more important and more and more powerful, actually ends up doing the inverse and making said character functionally worthless. This is because any half way intelligent reader will know that the writer literally just made XYZ thing up. So instead of the things the writer handed the character making the character seem cool or intelligent, it just makes the writer seem bad. Because those things are all unearned by the character and just handed to them by the writer.
 


Now, I'm sure almost everyone here can see why that's a problem.

But for those who can't, constantly re-writing already existing things so your character is more and more important and more and more powerful, actually ends up doing the inverse and making said character functionally worthless. This is because any half way intelligent reader will know that the writer literally just made XYZ thing up. So instead of the things the writer handed the character making the character seem cool or intelligent, it just makes the writer seem bad. Because those things are all unearned by the character and just handed to them by the writer.

God forbid. A writer? Making things up? What has the world come to.

This is a Vaermina response.
 
But for those who can't, constantly re-writing already existing things so your character is more and more important and more and more powerful, actually ends up doing the inverse and making said character functionally worthless. This is because any half way intelligent reader will know that the writer literally just made XYZ thing up. So instead of the things the writer handed the character making the character seem cool or intelligent, it just makes the writer seem bad. Because those things are all unearned by the character and just handed to them by the writer.

Indeed, giving the Ophidian more of a place in Hell's hierarchy is going to be a devastating blow for future stories, it's not as if Paul is already so involved with the demonic that he can investigate a suicide by just popping down to Hell and asking the ruler he installed to look up the victim in their Soulodex.

oh wait
 
Indeed, giving the Ophidian more of a place in Hell's hierarchy is going to be a devastating blow for future stories, it's not as if Paul is already so involved with the demonic that he can investigate a suicide by just popping down to Hell and asking the ruler he installed to look up the victim in their Soulodex.

oh wait
About that. I was really expecting Mammon to charge Paul some sort of cost for the service. But here's an idea: this is establishing a brand. Now, Mammon can have his cultists go out and offer this service to the living, with the guarantee that this is a service that Orange Lantern himself partakes in.
 
That's interesting. But didn't they exist well before humanity? Before Earth?

Brightest Day established that Earth is where the White Light Entity was born into the universe and hence where life first evolved.

Yes, that's pretty stupid, what with the universe pre-dating the formation of the Earth by over 8 billion years.

Hence why I assume Zoat made Earth the fifth world that the White Light Entity has lived, tying in the GLC lore and the New God mythos.
 
God forbid. A writer? Making things up? What has the world come to.

This is a Vaermina response.
Way to try and strip the context out of what I said. :rolleyes:

Too bad I'm not going to let you.

See, I was specifically talking about already existing things in a setting being re-written to make an SI more impressive or give them power ups. As was outlined in the response you quoted.
 
Way to try and strip the context out of what I said. :rolleyes:

Too bad I'm not going to let you.

See, I was specifically talking about already existing things in a setting being re-written to make an SI more impressive or give them power ups. As was outlined in the response you quoted.

I mean, the actual already decided to tie the Ophidian to the Serpent of Eden;

bible-green-lantern-2.jpg

Is it dumb?

Sure.

But comics come packed with dumb shit, so it's not that special.
 
Is it dumb?

Sure.

But comics come packed with dumb shit, so it's not that special.

But it gets worse.

I must have actually blocked out the stupidity that they implied a connection between the Butcher entity to Cain and Abel.

Except Cain was the rancher, Abel the farmer.

So for Cain's murder of Abel to create the Butcher, yes, Cain's cow must have been cheating on him with Abel.

More evidence that comic book writers are paid with booze and drugs.
 
But it gets worse.

I must have actually blocked out the stupidity that they implied a connection between the Butcher entity to Cain and Abel.

Except Cain was the rancher, Abel the farmer.

So for Cain's murder of Abel to create the Butcher, yes, Cain's cow must have been cheating on him with Abel.

More evidence that comic book writers are paid with booze and drugs.

......No?

Cain was the farmer and Abel was the shepard.

Genesis 4:2 said:
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a a​keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
 
Vantavendi (part 20)
21st October 2012
16:56 GMT -5


"…which is why I'm here. Because when I think 'evil god walking around', Darkseid is the first person who comes to mind."

Barda nods. Mr. Free would probably nod if he could move.

"I mean, rescuing the Forever Children from Apokolips must have irritated him a bit."

Barda's face hardens. "I doubt it."

"Powerful aliens attacking Apokolips and taking his stuff wouldn't irritate him?"

"Not unless it somehow made him know less about the Anti-Life. He'd already destroyed Infinity Man. Beyond that, all they had to offer him was another lesson in how to break a New God's spirit. Letting them go and learn to hope again will just make it more educational when he finally gets them."

"So you don't think it was him?"

"If-" And Mr. Free is now out of his restraints, glancing at the timer with an air of mild disappointment. "-he were on Earth, we'd all know about it."

"You sure? I'm sure that Apokolips has hush tubes, and… We wouldn't necessarily spot them if he came through somewhere remote. We didn't know about Desaad for months."

Mr. Free shakes his head. "Darkseid's telos won't allow it. When he moves, there's nothing subtle about it. Desaad can sneak around. Darkseid… Can't."

"Okay, what about someone taking… Ms. Carlyle to Apokolips for an anti-lifing?"

"I… It's not impossible. But the demons didn't say anything about going to Apokolips, did they?"

"No. They didn't. But I didn't specifically ask, and they are demons." Barda and Mr. Free share a glance. "No? Not something that could happen?"

Barda shakes her head. "Darkseid has captured magic creatures before. If he had broken these demons, they would not have recovered so easily."

"But the demons said-."

"Demons can be broken." Another nod from Barda. "I have seen demons afflicted by the Anti-Life."

"The demons said that their voices went somewhere, and a dull echo came back."

Mr. Free frowns. "Yeah, that… Sounds a little like Anti-Life, but… Anti-Life is a memetic hazard. You can't touch a mind infected with it without getting infected as well." He considers me for a moment. "Usually. You remember our fight with The Key?"

"Yes. So, someone else acting as a relay, like he was? None of the survivors described him the way the demons described whoever this was."

He shrugs. "It might not even have been that at all. There are other ways to control someone's mind. Did you get someone to do a telepathic scan or make a detailed thaumic map?"

"No."

Barda nods. "I have seen legions of Justified soldiers. This woman did not behave like them. She had no helmet to keep her connected to the broadcast or give her orders. No New God of Apokolips was giving her commands. We have seen no sign of other New Gods on Earth. I don't think this was Anti-Life."

"Of course, this is Earth. If anywhere could find some new way to administer an Anti-Life infection, this would be the place."

I nod. "Yes, but… I suppose you're right. Thank you for seeing me at short notice."

Mr. Free smiles as Barda picks him up, turns him upside down and puts him back into the harness. "Thank you for putting up with Canis."

I nod, raise my right hand in a farewell wave and

step out, appearing

in the Mountain. Most of the team are out on their assignments, but Richard and Beryl are using the cave's main computer to… Render all of our data in three dimensional space to allow them to take all of it in.

Richard doesn't look around. "Anything new?"

"The Frees don't think it was Anti-Life. But they can't rule it out."

"Oh?" Beryl looks around with a smile. "We not important enough for Darkseid?"

"We're an utterly insignificant little blue green planet in-."

"In the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy, yes, we've all read Douglas Adams."

Richard looks slightly awkward for a moment. "Ah..?"

"I'll get you a copy later. But he's got a point. We're probably not important enough for Darkseid."

"Apparently there's something about Darkseid that means he won't ever be personally subtle."

Richard smirks. "Guess you can relate, huh Oh El?"



I mean…

"So we know that the guns are out of circulation, and that something really mystically suspicious is happening. Have you learned anything?"

Richard shakes his head. "We're trying to find points of commonality between all of the victims. At the moment, all we've got is that they're slightly more likely than average to drink orange juice with their breakfast."

"And that could just be because they have a more active lifestyle than average."

"No, we took that into account."

I throw up my right hand. "I guess I'll go and interrogate the head of PepsiCo, then."

"I might have got something." Beryl doesn't sound particular certain, but she's standing in the middle of a lot of holographic screens. "It's not exactly solid-."

"Putting things together like that is your super power. What have you got?"

"The lists the Alliance gave us cover everyone who's signed up with them. But it doesn't cover people who just went to a couple of meetings. Because superheroes don't like people keeping track of their movements. But that means that there are some pretty big spaces in their timelines. And every one of them has a gap big enough to have gone to an Alliance seminar. Like…" She pulls up a file. "Wrench Wench."

I don't say anything about the name. She was shot seven times.

"Back in September, there's a gap where she was supposed to be visiting her aunt. But we know she wasn't. I didn't think much about it the first time we went through the files; superheroes make stuff up about where they're going all the time. But there was an Alliance conference not all that far away that matches. See?"

Richard nods. "And that's the same for all of them?"

"Yes it is."

"Do we have the full guest list for those meetings?"

She shakes her head. "Only for the people who actually signed up."

"Might as well check it anyway. Not as if we've got any other leads."
 
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"You sure? I'm sure that Apokolips has hush tubes, and… We wouldn't necessarily spot them if he came through somewhere remote. We didn't know about Desaad for months."

Mr. Free shakes his head. "Darkseid's telos won't allow it. When he moves, there's nothing subtle about it. Desaad can sneak around. Darkseid… Can't."
These should say DeSaad.

in the Mountain. Most of the team are out on their assignments, but Richard and Beryl are using the cave's main computer to… Render all of out data in three dimensional space to allow them to take all of it in.
Does that actually help them out in any way? Also, I think that should say 'our'.
 
"If-" And Mr. Free is now out of his restraints, glancing at the timer with an air of mild disappointment. "-he were on Earth, we'd all know about it."

"You sure? I'm sure that Apokolips has hush tubes, and… We wouldn't necessarily spot them if he came through somewhere remote. We didn't know about Desaad for months."

Mr. Free shakes his head. "Darkseid's telos won't allow it. When he moves, there's nothing subtle about it. Desaad can sneak around. Darkseid… Can't

The Renegade story kinda shows he can be somewhat subtle.

"I… It's not impossible. But the demons didn't say anything about going to Apokolips, did they?"

"No. They didn't. But I didn't specifically ask, and they are demons

It's possible that Darkseid could have erased any memory.

Of course, this is Earth. If anywhere could find some new way to administer an Anti-Life infection, this would be the place."

Ahh, Earth, a truly horrible place.

Apparently there's something about Darkseid that means he won't ever be personally subtle."

It's either his brand of tyranny or he thinks he doesn't need to be subtle since there's little that can hurt him.

Richard smirks. "Guess you can relate, huh Oh El?"



I mean…

He's got you there.

Richard shakes his head. "We're trying to find points of commonality between all of the victims. At the moment, all we've got is that they're slightly more likely than average to drink orange juice with their breakfast."

Maybe this new evil god us connected to oranges and is offended that people are eating and drinking them.

It wouldn't be the weirdest thing to come out of DC.
 
Way to try and strip the context out of what I said. :rolleyes:

Too bad I'm not going to let you.

See, I was specifically talking about already existing things in a setting being re-written to make an SI more impressive or give them power ups. As was outlined in the response you quoted.
I was just exaggerating for comedic effect, like you seemed to be exaggerating for whatever reason you do it. You're not wrong. The Ophidian being the snake from the Garden of Eden, and the father of demon lady, is kind of dumb, pointless, and potentially even contradictory to the source material. From what I've seen so far, it just seems like pointless fluff the story doesn't actually need, and that doesn't help contribute to the setting. But it doesn't matter, and I don't care. This information changes nothing about the current situation. No one will start bending over backwards because of it.

Maybe something will come out of it in the future? And if and when that does happen, I'll readjust my judgement upon the quality of the writing. It being foreshadowed like this would be more of a good thing, in my mind.

This is a Vaermina response.
 
21st October 2012
16:56 GMT -5


"…which is why I'm here. Because when I think 'evil god walking around', Darkseid is the first person who comes to mind."

Barda nods. Mr. Free would probably nod if he could move.
...That sounds so wrong, even though I know he's just doing some escapology training. Still, logical enough to check on the better of the possibilities concerning 'dark evil gods'.

"I mean, rescuing the Forever Children from Apokolips must have irritated him a bit."

Barda's face hardens. "I doubt it."
I'm sure whoever was in charge of them at the time was upset. But it would hardly be a blip in Darkseid's radar.

"Powerful aliens attacking Apokolips and taking his stuff wouldn't irritate him?"

"Not unless it somehow made him know less about the Anti-Life. He'd already destroyed Infinity Man. Beyond that, all they had to offer him was another lesson in how to break a New God's spirit. Letting them go and learn to hope again will just make it more educational when he finally gets them."
Gee, such a long-term view of things... He makes it sound inevitable.

"So you don't think it was him?"

"If-" And Mr. Free is now out of his restraints, glancing at the timer with an air of mild disappointment. "-he were on Earth, we'd all know about it."
I'll bet he's annoyed because he was one second slower than his personal best...

"You sure? I'm sure that Apokolips has hush tubes, and… We wouldn't necessarily spot them if he came through somewhere remote. We didn't know about Desaad for months."

Mr. Free shakes his head. "Darkseid's telos won't allow it. When he moves, there's nothing subtle about it. Desaad can sneak around. Darkseid… Can't."
Telos being his goal or raison d'etre. In this case, Tyranny. And a quiet, discreet tyranny is not his style. Like the classic quote about three billion voices and six billion fists, he needs to be seen as total dominion, absolute rule, the master of all things...

"Okay, what about someone taking… Ms. Carlyle to Apokolips for an anti-lifing?"

"I… It's not impossible. But the demons didn't say anything about going to Apokolips, did they?"
...OL didn't ask. But they certainly didn't seem as.. broken.. as you'd expect something exposed to Darkseid to be.

"No. They didn't. But I didn't specifically ask, and they are demons." Barda and Mr. Free share a glance. "No? Not something that could happen?"

Barda shakes her head. "Darkseid has captured magic creatures before. If he had broken these demons, they would not have recovered so easily."
Which isn't good to hear. I shudder to imagine Apokalips' Hell, if it even has one.

"But the demons said-."

"Demons can be broken." Another nod from Barda. "I have seen demons afflicted by the Anti-Life."
Please, don't elaborate... I don't think we want those nightmares.

"The demons said that their voices went somewhere, and a dull echo came back."

Mr. Free frowns. "Yeah, that… Sounds a little like Anti-Life, but… Anti-Life is a memetic hazard. You can't touch a mind infected with it without getting infected as well." He considers me for a moment. "Usually. You remember our fight with The Key?"
When OL no-sold it by sheer obliviousness and Avaricious focus? Indeed.

"Yes. So, someone else acting as a relay, like he was? None of the survivors described him the way the demons described whoever this was."

He shrugs. "It might not even have been that at all. There are other ways to control someone's mind. Did you get someone to do a telepathic scan or make a detailed thaumic map?"
...Well, now OL sounds a bit lazy. Then again, he's hardly equipped to do that sort of thing.

"No."

Barda nods. "I have seen legions of Justified soldiers. This woman did not behave like them. She had no helmet to keep her connected to the broadcast or give her orders. No New God of Apokolips was giving her commands. We have seen no sign of other New Gods on Earth. I don't think this was Anti-Life."
...Unless they've discovered a new way to employ it without any of those things. :oops: Which is far more terrifying.

"Of course, this is Earth. If anywhere could find some new way to administer an Anti-Life infection, this would be the place."

I nod. "Yes, but… I suppose you're right. Thank you for seeing me at short notice."
And OL realises just that. Still, better Anti-Life than the much worse alternate.

Mr. Free smiles as Barda picks him up, turns him upside down and puts him back into the harness. "Thank you for putting up with Canis."

I nod, raise my right hand in a farewell wave and
To be fair, OL doesn't have that much to do with him these days.

step out, appearing

in the Mountain. Most of the team are out on their assignments, but Richard and Beryl are using the cave's main computer to… Render all of our data in three dimensional space to allow them to take all of it in.
Taking the old 'corkboard and push-pin' method to its logical, digital-era extreme, eh?

Richard doesn't look around. "Anything new?"

"The Frees don't think it was Anti-Life. But they can't rule it out."
So, nothing they couldn't work around in their theorising.

"Oh?" Beryl looks around with a smile. "We not important enough for Darkseid?"

"We're an utterly insignificant little blue green planet in-."
Ford Prefect, you are not, OL. Even if you probably do know where your towel is...

"In the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy, yes, we've all read Douglas Adams."

Richard looks slightly awkward for a moment. "Ah..?"
:rolleyes: Bloody uneducated American lout. He probably only watched the movie.

"I'll get you a copy later. But he's got a point. We're probably not important enough for Darkseid."

"Apparently there's something about Darkseid that means he won't ever be personally subtle."
Given other appearances He's made in fiction, yes.

Richard smirks. "Guess you can relate, huh Oh El?"



I mean…
...Oh, don't try to deny it. :rolleyes:

"So we know that the guns are out of circulation, and that something really mystically suspicious is happening. Have you learned anything?"

Richard shakes his head. "We're trying to find points of commonality between all of the victims. At the moment, all we've got is that they're slightly more likely than average to drink orange juice with their breakfast."
No skeletons in their closets at all? I find that hard to believe.

"And that could just be because they have a more active lifestyle than average."

"No, we took that into account."
Heh. Tracing every possible lead, eh?

I throw up my right hand. "I guess I'll go and interrogate the head of PepsiCo, then."

"I might have got something." Beryl doesn't sound particular certain, but she's standing in the middle of a lot of holographic screens. "It's not exactly solid-."
Ah, the super-hunch comes through.

"Putting things together like that is your super power. What have you got?"

"The lists the Alliance gave us cover everyone who's signed up with them. But it doesn't cover people who just went to a couple of meetings. Because superheroes don't like people keeping track of their movements. But that means that there are some pretty big spaces in their timelines. And every one of them has a gap big enough to have gone to an Alliance seminar. Like…" She pulls up a file. "Wrench Wench."
...Yeah, sure, not every name can be a winner. And after a certain amount of time, all the good names would be taken fairly quickly.

I don't say anything about the name. She was shot seven times.

"Back in September, there's a gap where she was supposed to be visiting her aunt. But we know she wasn't. I didn't think much about it the first time we went through the files; superheroes make stuff up about where they're going all the time. But there was an Alliance conference not all that far away that matches. See?"
Sounds like a solid hypothesis. I expect the data checks out?

Richard nods. "And that's the same for all of them?"

"Yes it is."
All right, then. There's a lead.

"Do we have the full guest list for those meetings?"

She shakes her head. "Only for the people who actually signed up."

"Might as well check it anyway. Not as if we've got any other leads."
So, face-to-face meetings with the administration team for each possible contact. ...And OL's on it. Hoo-boy.

And so the investigation continues, then. More inquisitive chats with assorted office-folks who have, at best, a tangential connection to all this... Hopefully stuff that can be skimmed over for the most part. Because I don't know about you, but I am eager to see more of Lantern's attempts to keep 'Despera' from going postal in Eternos... :D
 
Mr. Free shakes his head. "Darkseid's telos won't allow it. When he moves, there's nothing subtle about it. Desaad can sneak around. Darkseid… Can't."

If Darkseid can't sneak around then how does he pursue his hobby of sneaking into people's homes and sitting on their couches?

in the Mountain. Most of the team are out on their assignments, but Richard and Beryl are using the cave's main computer to… Render all of our data in three dimensional space to allow them to take all of it in.

Richard doesn't look around. "Anything new?"

"The Frees don't think it was Anti-Life. But they can't rule it out."

"Oh?" Beryl looks around with a smile. "We not important enough for Darkseid?"

"We're an utterly insignificant little blue green planet in-."

"In the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy, yes, we've all read Douglas Adams."

Richard looks slightly awkward for a moment. "Ah..?"

"I'll get you a copy later. But he's got a point. We're probably not important enough for Darkseid."

Dick's in for a treat, pity that Terry Prachet and his work can't also be found on this Earth
 

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