With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Old Knife · Jun 16, 2022

Golden boy 2.0?

That's scary. The original was crazy powerful even without Lord of Order powers

Do you know what's even scarier? John half angel, half devil, lord if chaos/order. Harmony.

That's going to be a trip. Especially since we all know he's never going allow himself closure or forgiveness.
Entity would be unstable

Chojin Patriarch · Jun 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
8th November 2012
13:08 GMT

I adjust my bobble hat as Dr. Balewa leads the way across Hyde Park. Not a place I expected to ever come with a member of the Justice League, but I suppose he wasn't a member at the time. I'm dressed in clothing that's… More like my wardrobe from Earth Prime than anything I've worn since getting here, slightly ratty bomber jacket with a logo that looks a little like a something a rock band might use while being dissimilar enough to avoid incurring licensing fees included. Not a perfect replica of the jacket I had handed down from my cousin Peter, which kept me warm through…

Ah, hand-me-down clothes. Sometimes, they can be amazingly comfortable. After all, someone's already worn the stiffness out of them. Though it might take a little getting used to the slight difference in smell, but a few washes sort that out.

I honestly can't remember if it was Primary School or Secondary School. Huh.

Anyway, I'm dressed like a British person during winter, rather than a superhero or model… Okay, fine, idiosyncratically attired rich lunatic, like I normally am. Dr. Balewa usually dresses down, but for this trip he's left his kaftan on the Watchtower in favour of a long, puffy, bright red coat. It doesn't do much in the way of camouflage, but it's ridiculous enough that no one is going to think he's a superhero.

Heh. When was the last time OL went out in public in anything other than combat armour or a perfectly-tailored suit of clothes, I wonder? As for Doctor Mist, I'm amazed he isn't channeling Professor Badass.

Chavy-ridiculous, not normal-superhero-clothing ridiculous.

Feel a bit awkward about Alan being here. Huh. I wonder. If he'd had his renovated ring at the time, would I have invited him? Yes, yes of course I would. Even if it might have affected his ability to join the League later -and I know how much he likes being part of the League- I would have wanted him with me.

'Chavs' being a particularly British subculture. For an American equivalent, think Dude-bros. With a side of 'Wigger'...

Sheesh, culture today...

"If he's been here all along then I'm going to be annoyed with myself."

"Part of him."

Seriously, if John has been hiding out in the Tate Club this whole time......

I frown, but if he's going to do the whole cryptic wizard thing… I suppose that he's earned that right. Someone his age is going to sound cryptic to someone my age even if they try and speak as plainly as possible, and that goes double for an actual wizard.

Scanning our surroundings for a moment I spot Alan, who appears to have decided that his best cover involves dressing like a stereotypical American tourist. Half his clothing has an American flag on it somewhere, and the other half appears to have been purchased from a London-themed market stall. The camera around his neck is a little incongruous, except he spent plenty of time around professional photographers and can probably talk about it in enough detail to cover himself if someone asked about it.

Good lord, talk about hiding in plain sight.

And standing next to him-. No. No, that's not-.

"Nommo?"

Oh, for... Did they seriously let the Demon Constantine out in public? I hope they have very good leashes on him, as many as they could pack on...

"You know how he was created?"

"Roughly."

I mean, it's not like John would ever have talked about on of his best swindles...

"Consider the situation. John Constantine has inherited the power of a Lord of Order, but he cannot handle it. You have seen John Quinn-."

"The use of his mother's maiden name was a bit obvious. And the fact that he looks like an idealised John Constantine. So that's what he is? It's a lot less worry… Ing…"

Huh. That sounds worryingly plausible, and entirely not what any of us were expecting.

"Do you see the problem?"

"Creating a golem like that involves removing memories. So if he removed… What, every heroic memory and… Thought? Then he'd be-." What? "Don't tell me the thing I've been calling The Demon Constantine is actual-John?"

I rather suspect a Chaotic Evil John would not be very different to normal... Marginally less concerned with friends and allies' safety than usual, maybe.

"No. Though knowing Constantine as I do, it does not sound beyond him. According to the Demon, he used a duplicate of himself that he had already created."

"From before he created the Demon, or after?"

And you're sure you can trust what the Demon told you?

"Thet, the Demon did not know."

"Oh, come on. You told me that you knew enough to find John."

...Maybe he left a message for OL with the Tate Club crew that he's never thought to ask about?

"Thet is why were are here. The Demon wishes to use the echoes of John's actions, here and in other places, to become more like him. Since John Constantine is not inclined to help mass murderers, I felt that permitting this was in the interest of Earth."

"Always up for a bit of redemption. Why does he want to become more like John?"

And if John has done a runner from the universe - unlikely given that we haven't seen a new Lord of Chaos turn up yet - I suppose the Demon is as good a substitute as you can get.

"Why did you want to regain your memories after the second time you died?"

"Fair-. No, wait. I wouldn't have created a golem like that in the first place. For me it was like curing Alzheimer's, but the Demon never had those memories."

Also because those memories were his. And we all know how well OL handles losing his stuff.

"No, but he had a memory of having those memories." Dr. Balewa look away, probably reaching for an appropriate metaphor. "He would have thought, but they would not make sense because the experiences that would-."

"Like Mister Cairo from Phantom Twenty Forty."

If anyone was wondering: Phantom 2040. Sort of a 'Batman: Beyond' version of a classic superhero.

Fun fact, said original is oddly popular here in Australia.

"You cannot make me feel older than I do already."

Think I just made myself feel old.

1994, folks.

That was 28 years ago... Some of you readers weren't even alive when that show started airing.

"He was an intelligent computer program created from the mind of a widower to find out what caused the particularly nasty car crash that killed his wife. Unfortunately, he got damaged before being completed and was just left with an obsessive desire to learn everything. Once he finally learned the thing he was originally created to learn he returned to his creator and tried merging with him."

"Tried, and failed, then."

Not quite as explosively as the merger in the conclusion of 'Tron: Legacy', at least.

"By that point in their lives they were just too different to merge, even though they both wanted to. The widower got the information he wanted and could carry on with his life, but the infomorph was stuck knowing that its whole purpose was already fulfilled. The Demon Constantine's purpose was to go to Hell in John's place, which he did. The only good memory he has was Kathryn Ryan, and that didn't-. He remembers the relationship, but it wouldn't really have context."

I frown at him.

Yes, quite the conundrum.

"And we can't just telepathically dub stuff over because his body is a construct of demon magic and so he doesn't literally have a brain."

Dr. Balewa smiles. "That was the first thing you thought of, wasn't it?"

OL can't help but want to improve the situation of those useful to him... His way of rewarding loyalty, in a way...

"Yes, of c-." I'm getting distracted again. "But returning to the subject?"

"The Demon claimed that John Quinn is keeping John Constantine in the Tower of Fate, using him to maintain control of the link to Order and Chaos."

Again, you know he's not lying, how? Did Diana test him with the Lasso?

"Wouldn't you be able to detect him using that much power? Or not just you, I mean, wouldn't it be obvious?"

"If he were using it all of the time, yes, certainly. If he were simply doing what Nabu did and drawing what he needed, no."

Clever, but hardly the best solution to the challenge of embodying both Order and Chaos. ...But sadly, it is such a Constantine solution...

"Right then. So we're fighting Nabu Two. That explains Hyde Park."

"Thet would not be wise. While I heff not seen it, if John put enough of himself into John Quinn to use Order and Chaos, he would be far more powerful than Nabu was. And John was always more cunning than Nabu. A direct confrontation…"

Especially if he'd some inkling that it was coming... He'd have you face-down in the gutter in seconds.

He shakes his head. And he's right. The potential for collateral damage alone-.

"But we're freeing John Constantine and not talking to John Quinn about it in advance?"

"I do not share the optimism of some other League members. I think that taking away his weapons first is far wiser. And thet is why we are going to break into the Tower of Fate."

So, it's a heist mission, then. To quote Carl Johnson: 'Here we go again...'

And as seems to be the norm for anything involving John Constantine, things get messier and messier! At least Doctor Mist will be the one taking all the heat if things go tits-up. On the other hand, all this seems to hinge on the Demon Constantine's testimony. Even if he has no reason to lie, could he really help himself? I guess we'll find out soon enough...

RichardWhereat · Jun 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Like Mister Cairo from Phantom Twenty Forty."

"You cannot make me feel older than I do already."

Think I just made myself feel old.

Phantom 2040 isn't old. It was just a few years ago.

PepeTheFrog · Jun 16, 2022

_The_Bomb said:
Ok I am now confused who John Quinn is.

I feel like the other responses have told you "what" John Quinn is instead of "who" he is. John Quinn is the current Dr Fate who took over after Paragon Paul killed Nabu and shoved the power of a Lord of Chaos and Lord of Order into John Constantine who promptly vanished which is why Paul has been looking all over for him. When The Team and Paul first went back to the Tower of Fate they met Quinn and Paul thought it was Constantine but Quinn told him he wasn't Constantine. Obviously we now know it was a double bluff by Zoat as having a guy named John become Dr Fate right after John Constantine disappeared was a very obvious link.

Someguy Somewhere · Jun 16, 2022

RichardWhereat said:
Phantom 2040 isn't old. It was just a few years ago.

Duke Long · Jun 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Thet is why were are here.

'we'

Mr Zoat said:
duplicate of himself that he had already created

'thet'

Mr Zoat said:
they would not make sense because the experiences that would-.

'thet'

Mr Zoat said:
That was the first thing you thought of, wasn't it?

'thet'

Mr Zoat said:
I think that taking away his weapons first

'thet'

Mr Zoat said:
While I heff not seen it, if John put

'hev', unless you're being deliberately inconsistent.

RichardWhereat · Jun 16, 2022

Someguy Somewhere said:

Not sure what this comic means, they were.

Mr Zoat · Jun 16, 2022

Duke Long said:
'we'
'thet'
'thet'
'thet'
'thet'
'hev', unless you're being deliberately inconsistent.

Thank you, corrected,

NightmareWarden · Jun 16, 2022

Dr Mist and Accomplished Perfect Physician are some of the Leaguers we see the least of. It'll be interesting to see how Balewa approaches the Tower's puzzles and tricks. He certainly is not a "throw brute force at it" kind of man, so what sort of style will he have, how will it set him apart?

Has he brought along any totems or amulets for this adventure?

Has he learned any tricks about Lords of Order specifically, perhaps due to his chats with Orange Lantern Nabu (from the Supergirl Sextuplets/Demon Superman arc)?

Is he going to "kill" John Quinn to fix Chaos!Constantine, turn Quinn into a real boy with some Life Entity juice, or limit Chaos!Constantine with a geas as soon as this adventure is over?

Mquz · Jun 16, 2022

I think the part that some people explaining are missing is that the explanation hints at Constantine now missing all the personality traits he gave to Quinn. Him being heroic? Him being good? I think what we're about to see is an explicitly villainous Constantine that's a Lord of Chaos - freeing him seems like an obvious mistake. Heck, he probably locked himself away until one of them could figure out how to use the power on purpose so that he wouldn't do evil stuff.

moralrelativity · Jun 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
while being dissimilar enough to avoid incurring licensing fees included.

I suggest deleting 'included'; I think it's unnecessary and a tad confusing.

DAT_NOOB · Jun 16, 2022

Someguy Somewhere said:

RichardWhereat said:
Not sure what this comic means, they were.

If you want to feel older, if that were true I would have been born yesterday.

Senevri · Jun 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
And thet is why we are going to break into the Tower of Fate.

Please be a heist, please be a heist, please be a heist.

Bud-E · Jun 16, 2022

"I do not share the optimism of some other League members. I think thet taking away his weapons first is far wiser. And thet is why we are going to break into the Tower of Fate."

Well for once the League can have a meeting about sharing info that's not about Paul

Sockmonkey · Jun 16, 2022

Mquz said:
I think the part that some people explaining are missing is that the explanation hints at Constantine now missing all the personality traits he gave to Quinn. Him being heroic? Him being good? I think what we're about to see is an explicitly villainous Constantine that's a Lord of Chaos - freeing him seems like an obvious mistake. Heck, he probably locked himself away until one of them could figure out how to use the power on purpose so that he wouldn't do evil stuff.

That makes sense. I figure original John always planned on recombining with Quinn after he mastered order magic so he could get a handle on it without torment of order and chaos fighting inside him.

The Froggy Ninja · Jun 16, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Again, you know he's not lying, how? Did Diana test him with the Lasso?

Balewa is probably the world's best mystic and basically did a xianxia soul search on Demon Constantine. Demon was still able to trick him by showing some stuff first, but he wasn't able to actually keep anything from him, just mess with the order a bit.

Rafin · Jun 16, 2022

Does John lose the memories and qualities he imbues into his golems? Or at least partially supresses them? Because if that's the case then it seems completely sensible to me that Quinn locked him up. I mean imagine John Constantine, except much less heroic, more selfish overall and by the way also a Lord of Chaos. Like, yeah. Definitely lock that up.
As for why Quinn didn't tell anyone, well, the only way of fixing the original is by merging them back, which to Quinn would either feel like dying or at the very least like having a whole bunch of ignoble, disorderly and unethical character traits shoved into him. And the superhero that he'd be most familiar with and who is known for pragmatism the most would happen to be "To Keep What's Mine" Orange Paul, who interprets Avarice as friend hoarding, who definitely considers the original Constantine as some kind of friend and who just moved heaven and earth and right after berated the whole Justice League for not freeing one of his friends father.

In other words, I totally get John Quinn here and would probably have done the same.

Windona · Jun 16, 2022

Rafin said:
Does John lose the memories and qualities he imbues into his golems? Or at least partially supresses them? Because if that's the case then it seems completely sensible to me that Quinn locked him up. I mean imagine John Constantine, except much less heroic, more selfish overall and by the way also a Lord of Chaos. Like, yeah. Definitely lock that up.
As for why Quinn didn't tell anyone, well, the only way of fixing the original is by merging them back, which to Quinn would either feel like dying or at the very least like having a whole bunch of ignoble, disorderly and unethical character traits shoved into him. And the superhero that he'd be most familiar with and who is known for pragmatism the most would happen to be "To Keep What's Mine" Orange Paul, who interprets Avarice as friend hoarding, who definitely considers the original Constantine as some kind of friend and who just moved heaven and earth and right after berated the whole Justice League for not freeing one of his friends father.

In other words, I totally get John Quinn here and would probably have done the same.

Yup. Though the way it's phrased in story is that they think Quinn is keeping Constantine to draw power from him. So I don't think they see it that way yet

Mr Zoat · Jun 16, 2022

moralrelativity said:
I suggest deleting 'included'; I think it's unnecessary and a tad confusing.

I'll modify the sentence.

RichardWhereat · Jun 16, 2022

DAT_NOOB said:
If you want to feel older, if that were true I would have been born yesterday.

You are young, yes. A kid.

Siiracai The Supernal · Jun 16, 2022

Old Knife said:
Golden boy 2.0?

That's scary. The original was crazy powerful even without Lord of Order powers

Do you know what's even scarier? John half angel, half devil, lord if chaos/order. Harmony.

That's going to be a trip. Especially since we all know he's never going allow himself closure or forgiveness.
Entity would be unstable

John actually isn't all that powerful, he is just cunning enough to beat the things that are. Most of his tricks involve calling up more powerful beings, runic structures, rituals, artifacts, or cantrips that he has figured out extra uses for. Sometimes a combination of several of these at once.

Prince Charon · Jun 16, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
1994, folks. That was 28 years ago... Some of you readers weren't even alive when that show started airing.

While others, like me, were certainly around - I'm pretty sure from things Zoat as said that I'm older than he is, for example.

Stsword · Jun 16, 2022

Siiracai The Supernal said:
John actually isn't all that powerful, he is just cunning enough to beat the things that are. Most of his tricks involve calling up more powerful beings, runic structures, rituals, artifacts, or cantrips that he has figured out extra uses for. Sometimes a combination of several of these at once.

That cunning is his power.

He's the Laughing Magician, he controls probability itself.

Golden Boy used that power to become the most powerful magician in the world and ruler of the world.

Presumably the same power that caused all those distractions when Paul decided to try to find Constantine which included dethroning Zeus.

rdfox · Jun 16, 2022

A bit late (I've not been checking the boards regularly), but...

Mr Zoat said:
"Where in the world is John Constantine?"

"DO IT, ROCKAPELLA!"

Mr Zoat · Jun 16, 2022

Prince Charon said:
While others, like me, were certainly around - I'm pretty sure from things Zoat as said that I'm older than he is, for example.

38, and getting older every day.

Mr Zoat · Jun 17, 2022

8th November 2012
13:19 GMT

A small café, nearly empty in the off-season. The cafés in the Eastbourne area that were inside the local parks used to shut down completely, but I suppose that in centres of tourism like London they can justify staying open all year round.

"So, ah…" Alan looks around, but I certainly don't want to talk to the Demon and Dr. Balewa appears to prefer to leave him to his own devices. "Do you feel any more… Complete than you did before?"

"Damned if I know."

"So you do know?"

The Demon leans back in his metal chair, his face a picture of exaggerated nonchalance. "Not how it works. I won't know if I'm more complete until I have to live like him."

"Don't get too comfortable. This is psychological counselling, not freedom. We're not helping you take over his life."

"'cept the bits he gave me."

"If you wanted to make a go of things with Ms. Ryan, I'd have been all for that, if you weren't an accessory to quite a lot of murder."

"Just like Blaze, then."

"Yours is a bit more recent. Though if you're asking to eat a Pomegranate of Good and Evil, I can make enquiries."

He goes to reply, then closes his mouth. Is he..? Actually considering it? John… John Constantine has an understanding of morality, even if he's prepared to be a ruthless bastard in how he goes about acting on it. I've never got the impression that the Demon does. He's what he was made: all ruthless self-hating bastard all the time. Even this trying to become more like John, he's doing because he believes that he's being denied something rightfully his.

"What other options are there?"

"What do you mean?"

"I met Chantinelle. Saw what you did to her."

"I'm all out of love crystal. Though if you want to volunteer to become a construct, I could probably square it with myself."

"Paul." Alan leans forward slightly to break line of sight between myself and the Demon. "I've been meaning to ask. Can I do something like that?"

"Not at present. Your personal lantern isn't designed to work like the Star Sapphire. You'd have to do a lot of meditation, learn to exist in the Honden, and.. probably contact Adara. Or you could talk to a maltusian about making a Blue Central Power Battery; I think I heard that Ganthet was interested in the other colours."

The Demon smiles. "I could help with… Adara, was it?"

I take a moment to look deeper in him. No, no real change.

"No, you couldn't. There's no hope in you. I doubt that she would even be aware of you, and as an Earthly demon you're stuck with the Earth's thaumosphere anyway."

"I've got the same cunning as John. You think I can't work out how to manipulate an elemental?"

"I think the very fact that you're asking like that disqualifies you. Doctor, why is he here?"

"If we are to enter the Tower of Fate unseen, it would help us to have one with free access with us."

Why would he give the Demon access even if-.

"Because they're the same person. You think that the wards can't distinguish between different John Constantines."

"It is not so simple. But it will be easier with him there than without."

"So… How are we doing this? Because the Tower's defences are pretty good. I'm confident that I could eat them eventually-."

"No, you could not. There are subtle uses of magic thet are well within John Quinn's abilities thet could be used to move the Tower to places you could not reach. Or use your own hunger to delude you, and draw you into a trep."

Alan nods. "So how're we going to do this?"

"The tower is accessible -in parts- through the Dream."

I nod. "I remember seeing a Dream Storm through a window in the library. And you think that we can get in that way?"

"With help, yes."

"I'm open-minded, but I might not be enthusiastic."

"I believe thet Sanderson Hawkins is most likely to be able to guide us through the Dream. Navigating thet place is… Not a simple matter."

"Why not Melinoë?"

"A god would draw attention, and her magic would make our passage harder."

"A couple of Sivanas?"

He regards me with an expression to scepticism on his face.

"I do not think thet showing them how to navigate the Dream is a wise thing to do. Thet is not a power I would trust to them."

"Okay. I haven't… Seen Sanderson for a while. Um."

"I have." Alan nods. "He's going okay, considering everything. I don't know if he'll want to help with this, though."

"How about if we point out that-."

"I…" Alan shakes his head. "Don't think he's ready for your… Ah, particular style of reasoning."

"Diplomatic. I appreciate it."

"How about I talk to him instead?"

"Thet may be wise, but if we are to be working together, it may be wise for Paul and Sanderson to become better acquainted."

"I'll behave."

Alan nods. "Okay, I guess that works. What about you?"

"Constantine and I will finish our work in London, and then I will prepare the spells needed to access the Dream."

"Why don't we just go through the gate in Tartarus?"

"Has John Quinn had cause to visit Erebos?"

"No, but it would be easy to check. I visit there quite often, and I doubt that anyone would lie to me if I asked. Besides, meditating until we access the Dream from the material universe just sounds like we'd be asking for someone to kill our real bodies while we're there."

Dr. Balewa nods.

"Then thet is what we will do."

Ngamer11 · Jun 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"No, you couldn't. There's no hope in you. I doubt that she would even be aware of you, and as a Earthly demon you're stuck with the Earth's thaumosphere anyway."

That should say 'an'.

dw7thdoctor · Jun 17, 2022

Demon Constantine must live quite a weird existence. I trying to imagine an intelligent being that what only works on desire, rage, fear, and 'love'. Actually, that sound more of a complete person than I thought.

thepsyborg · Jun 17, 2022

dw7thdoctor said:
Actually, that sound more of a complete person than I thought.

Sounds like more of a complete person than me some days.

Vaermina · Jun 17, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
and as a Earthly demon you're stuck with the Earth's thaumosphere anyway.

Still the most nonsensical change to canon in your entire story.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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