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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, that's a loaded question... Parents groups will bitch him out if he seems to easy on them using guns, the gun nuts will cuss him out if he's too strict...
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Right. The point isn't the answer, the point is pushing him to declare his tribal loyalty.
Correction: 'is an extremely'
Correction: 'The man nods', unless he's an 80's cartoon barbarian...
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Thank you, corrected.
 
Grayven has a special relationship with the Chinese government and has helped them just as much as he has helped the US, but because China is an emerging super power the US is worried they will lose its status as the hegemon of earth.

The question from the kid is loaded because is going to ruffle the feathers of Nationalists US citizens, personally I think all Grayven needs to do is demonstrate how silly human posturing is when hostile and more technological advanced life already has targeted earth several times and then go down the list to demonstrate how lucky the earth has been that most attacks have been from extremely weak civilizations that are pretty much coming to earth because the stronger ones lie in the opposite direction.

General Zod almost took control of earth and they were just a small group of survivors/refugees that came to earth because someone else was hunting and killing all Kryptonians.

The Durlans attacking China are a small organized group that fleed their country because it has become hyper space somalia.

The guys that attacked earth and led to the creation of the Justice League? Pretty much a combination of A and B... Grayven is helping earth countries because they need the help.
 
Yeah, international cooperation against a shared enemy is great and all... but people who are obsessed with guns also stereotypically tend to be those obsessed with the military, and also those who are against international cooperation. They think America needs to do things for itself, and working together with China or Russia, or being in any way like Europe is a horrible idea.
 
Navi-Hank said:
I don't see anything illegal about it. It's usually not a good idea because it looks bad, but Graven is a superhero, and he lives here.
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Grayven's stated position is this: having worked as a consultant with the US government, it is reasonable for the US public to be able to question him. Since Horne is the president and Knight isn't, he's going to be talking about what he's done with Horne.

In fact, he's toeing the line on campaigning because he obviously wants Horne to win but doesn't want to be too overt.
 
TheEyes said:
Could someone explain, for those with Swiss cheese for memories, what this is about? I vaguely recall Grayven using Ghost Fox Killer as a convenient way to make sure some people stay dead, but nothing that should be making him think "Oh shit."
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Grayven need to be all like, "Yeah we all got together, and just had to put that mad dog Klarion, and his bois, down you know. Fiends like that just need killing."
 
Prince Charon said:
I'm not sure that we can discuss that without running into Rule 8.
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I don't see any way that discussing a fictional character helping with the fictional Presidential campaign of another fictional character could possibly run afoul of Rule 8. Legally in the US I think anyone is free to volunteer with political campaigns, but for obvious reasons it doesn't come up much. Plus most politicians would be reluctant to have high profile foreigners on their campaign staff.

Traditionally superheroes don't get involved in political campaigns mostly because doing so would be a form editiorial suicide. Especially for controversial topics (which is a lesson the entire comic book industry seemingly forgot a while back and is now struggling to relearn). Zoat doesn't depend on this story for his income and thus doesn't have to worry about that. Worst case scenario for him is he loses some of the less reasonable/more reactionary readers.

Valiran said:
like the term "trap". It's supposed to mean "someone who looks (and often dresses) like the opposite gender"
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I will mention that "trap" has always been somewhat derogatory. It was originally used to imply that the person it was referring to was trying to lure unsuspecting people into the bedroom, and got worse from there. Perhaps a better example of what you're trying to say is how a mispronunciation of the Spanish word for "black" eventually evolved into one of the most abhorrent words in the English language.

doug89 said:
I saw someone make an attack helicopter joke in a story on SB the other day and was surprised no mods came. I suppose no one saw it.
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When Zoat made that comment he was already on their radar. I sincerely doubt that the mods over there could read every single post even if they wanted to.
 
Siskulous said:
Traditionally superheroes don't get involved in political campaigns mostly because doing so would be a form editiorial suicide. Especially for controversial topics (which is a lesson the entire comic book industry seemingly forgot a while back and is now struggling to relearn).
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I'm reminded of that Barack Obama Superman...
 
Siskulous said:
I will mention that "trap" has always been somewhat derogatory. It was originally used to imply that the person it was referring to was trying to lure unsuspecting people into the bedroom, and got worse from there.
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I've only ever seen it used in a humorous or semi-affectionate context, and learning how bigots were using it made me profoundly grumpy.
 
Guys from Gotham (supplementary, Renegade option)
  • Threadmarks
    • 16th February
    22:35 GMT -8

    That's where I recognise the face from.

    "Lonnie Machin. You're a long way from Gotham."

    "Er…"

    That actually wrong-foots him. He's… Nine at the moment, so he probably hasn't started using his brain reprogrammer yet. He's just the unusually cerebral and basically well-intentioned son of a man whose arms I crushed not so long ago. Not that he knows that at this point in his life. Actually, I should probably check-. Yes. And he's got a few of the neural abnormalities, too. Might explain the obsessiveness. Or that might just be a product of his unusual intelligence; he's used to the people around him not understanding what he's talking about and so he stops looking to those outside himself for guidance.

    I really should try introducing him to Richard…

    "How do you.. know who I am?"

    "You're on a watch list. Boys my children are never allowed to date."

    The moderator frowns at me in bemusement. "Ah, Grayven? Do you know… Ah, Lonnie, was it?"

    Lonnie nods, recovering himself slightly.

    Ring, biographical details.

    By your command.

    "Mister Machin up there is one of the most intelligent nine year olds in the country. Mister Machin got a scholarship to Gotham Academy -an excellent school- but decided to keep going to Gotham North… Why was that again?"

    "I don't think people should be sorted into winner and losers at six years old. If you tell kids they're going to a bad school, they'll identify with that. It's called the-."

    "Pygmalion Effect, yes, I am aware of it. It's why I tell my children that they're New Gods."

    Technically, only Lynne is a New God as she's the only one who started human. But I'm sure we can work on it if that bothers the younger children.

    "Right."

    He pauses.

    Yes, Mr Machin is highly intelligent but lacks experience. Which doesn't mean that I can afford to reject what he says out of hand or mock him, but it does mean that his intellectual reach may well exceed his mental grasp. Thing is, when you're trying to reimagine the world, having someone like him around could be rather useful.

    See how things go.

    "You were asking about China?"

    "Yes. Yes, you've been helping the Chinese government with their weapon development program."

    "A very small part of it, yes."

    "Why? I mean, you say that you like living in America because of the freedom it allows its citizens. Did you know that China executed all of its superheroes during the Great Purge?"

    "They executed a lot of people whose faces didn't fit. And as a nation they're hardly unique in that regard. Russia was never quite able to exert that level of control on their own metahuman population but it wasn't for lack of trying. And I can name at least three superheroes who were shot dead by the American government for violently resisting internment during the Second World War."

    "And what about more recently?"

    I shrug. "Mister Machin, you're a conscientious sort of chap, so I assume that you watched my interrogation of the British Parliament's Preternatural Scrutiny Select Committee?" He nods. "Then you know what I consider my job on Earth to be. I am not here to fix all of the problems of human civilisation. I am here to keep the majority of the population alive."

    "Why am I willing to work with a country with a less than stellar human rights record? Because by doing so I reduce the chance of planetary extinction. Because of me those few supervillains who manage to cling on inside China won't be clinging on for much longer. Because of me, some of the more dangerous technologies which the Chinese government had access to are being investigated in slightly less risky ways. I earn the Chinese government's favour and they're a little more willing to cooperate with me on matters of planetary security."

    "Exactly what areas of their military have you been helping them with?"

    "I'm not going to broadcast that information."

    "How do you know that it's just something they're going to use against supervillains rather than their own people?"

    "No, I expect that they'll use it in all areas of law enforcement. I know for a fact that several Great Ten members are routinely employed in capturing metahumans who refuse to work for the state." I shrug. "I personally consider the Chinese government's way of utilising metahumans to be inefficient; they value control above utility. But, China has the largest army in the world. If they didn't have slightly better superheroes, they would still have plenty of ways to beat down 'enemies of the state'. Probably with a higher body count."

    I'm being a little disingenuous. I'm fully aware that part of the Great Ten's 'hazing' involves sending new members to beat up lightly or entirely unarmed demonstrators. It's a useful way of forcing them to identify with their team and with the state, and to deny them the opportunity to establish a separate support base for themselves amongst said 'enemies of the state'. And the possibility of a resistance movement forming around a powerful metahuman has gone from 'slight' to 'nonexistent'. And… 'Inefficient' is underselling exactly how I feel. I mean, I get it for the ones with destructive powers, but some of the people they've given life imprisonment sentences to…

    But even if this version of Lonnie ends up going the 'profound honesty' route I certainly won't.

    "So…" He shakes his head. "You don't think you could make a difference? You're not going to use your leverage at all?"

    "China has about… Five top tier superfunctionaries." August General, Immortal Man, Thundermind, Ghost Fox Killer and Celestial Archer. "I've helped three of them slightly. That gives me minimal leverage, and none at all outside of the narrow area of metahuman security. And if I sound off in public about some of the things I'd prefer them to do differently I'd lose the ability to influence them within my area of expertise. And while I might prefer it if certain things were different, I must live in the world that exists."

    So let's not talk about the negotiations between Lex and the politburo concerning Security Council support for his planetary defence fleet, because I really don't want them to spot that in a move stolen from World War Z's Cuba I'm going to turn their own soldiers into social Trojan horses. Or that we intend to ensure that all of Earth's off-world colonies are liberal, capitalist and democraticish and not beholden to any Earth nation state.

    "Mister Machin, it's not that government oppression doesn't bother me, it's that a legion of murder-fairies from the future bent on harvesting your civilisation bothers me more. It's that space pirates bent on plunder and malign wizards bent on mass murder bother me more. Those are the things the Earth rather needs me to focus my energies on. Perhaps you'd rather that I do something else."

    I shrug.

    "And perhaps you could even make a convincing utilitarian argument for it; I'm far from being a perfect judge of such things. But by and large, I think I'm taking the right approach. Though if you want to try and change the Chinese government's minds on any subject, feel free. I doubt that you're involved in any other work with them that might be damaged by it so you've got a far freer hand than I do."

    "But-."

    "Tell you what. I'm sure that you could keep pushing me all evening. Why don't you let someone else have a turn now-" Because I'm supposed to be not-electioneering, not re-evaluating my entire strategy. "-and come and see me backstage once this is over? I'll try and give you the level of detail that might actually satisfy you."

    He hesitates again, then nods.

    "Thank you. I'll do that."
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Mr Zoat said:
    He's just unusually cerebral and basically well-intentioned son of a man whose arms I crushed not so long ago.
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    *the unusually

    Mr Zoat said:
    Not that he's know that at this point in his life.
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    *he knows

    Mr Zoat said:
    "I don't think people should be sorted into winner and loses at six years old.
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    *losers

    Mr Zoat said:
    "Mister Machin, it's not that government oppression doesn't bother me, it's that legion of murder-faries from the future bend on harvesting your civilisation bother me more.
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    "it's that *a legion of *murder-fairies from the future *bent on harvesting your civilisation *bothers me more."
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    That's where I recognise the face from.

    "Lonnie Machin. You're a long way from Gotham."
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    Ah, the future Anarky. Howsabout you snip that in the bud right now, Grayven? Politely.

    "Er…"

    That actually wrong-foots him. He's… Nine at the moment, so he probably hasn't started using his brain reprogrammer yet. He's just unusually cerebral and basically well-intentioned son of a man whose arms I crushed not so long ago. Not that he's know that at this point in his life. Actually, I should probably check-. Yes. And he's got a few of the neural abnormalities, too. Might explain the obsessiveness. Or that might just be a product if his unusual intelligence; he's used to the people around him not understanding what he's talking about and so he stops looking to those outside himself for guidance.

    I really should try introducing him to Richard…
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    That'd be like mixing Pitch and Naptha. Or it could result in total bromance heterosexual life partners...

    "How do you.. know who I am?"

    "You're on a watch list. Boys my children are never allowed to date."
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    Heh, I expect some of the kids would have words about that...

    The moderator frowns at me in bemusement. "Ah, Grayven? Do you know… Ah, Lonnie, was it?"

    Lonnie nods, recovering himself slightly.

    Ring, biographical details.

    By your command.

    "Mister Machin up there is one of the most intelligent nine year olds in the country. Mister Machin got a scholarship to Gotham Academy -an excellent school- but decided to go keep going to Gotham North… Why was that again?"
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    Nice cover for your extra-universal knowledge.

    "I don't think people should be sorted into winner and loses at six years old. If you tell kids they're going to a bad school, they'll identify with that. It's called the-."

    "Pygmalion Effect, yes, I am aware of it. It's why I tell my children that they're New Gods."

    Technically, only Lynne is a New God as she's the only one who started human. But I'm sure we can work on it if that bothers the younger children.
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    What would they even become New Gods of?

    "Right."

    He pauses.

    Yes, Mr Machin is highly intelligent but lacks experience. Which doesn't mean that I can afford to reject what he says out of hand or mock him, but it does mean that his intellectual reach may well exceed his mental grasp. Thing is, when you're trying to reimagine the world, having someone like him around could be rather useful.
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    Are you actually planning to get the young child who can point out obvious flaws in your plans? Well done, young Overlord!

    See how things go.

    "You were asking about China?"

    "Yes. Yes, you've been helping the Chinese government with their weapon development program."

    "A very small part of it, yes."
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    I'm sure it has many different elements he doesn't have contact with.

    "Why? I mean, you say that you like living in America because of the freedom it allows its citizens. Did you know that China executed all of its superheroes during the Great Purge?"

    "They executed a lot of people whose faces didn't fit. And as a nation they're hardly unique in that regard. Russia was never quite able to exert that level of control on their own metahuman population but it wasn't for lack of trying. And I can name at least three superheroes who were shot dead by the American government for violently resisting internment during the Second World War."
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    I could see that. 40's superheores were very patriotic, and I could see some having opinions about that sort of thing.

    "And what about more recently?"

    I shrug. "Mister Machin, you're a conscientious sort of chap, so I assume that you watched my interrogation of the British Parliament's Preternatural Scrutiny Select Committee?" He nods. "Then you know what I consider my job on Earth to be. I am not here to fix all of the problems of human civilisation. I am here to keep the majority of the population alive."
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    Seriously, people never seem to remember all the different alien races with designs on Earth.

    "Why am I willing to work with a country will a less than stellar human right's record? Because by doing so I reduce the chance of planetary extinction. Because of me those few supervillains who manage to cling on inside China won't be clinging on for much longer. Because of me, some of the more dangerous technologies which the Chinese government had access to are being investigated in slightly less risky ways. I earn the Chinese government's favour and they're a little more willing to cooperate with me on matters of planetary security."

    "Exactly what areas of their military have you been helping them with?"

    "I'm not going to broadcast that information."
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    Seriously, did Lonnie expect him to answer that? Or is his silence on the matter telling in its own way?

    "How do you know that it's just something they're going to use against supervillains rather than their own people?"

    "No, I expect that they'll use it in all areas of law enforcement. I know for a fact that several Great Ten members are routinely employed in capturing metahumans who refuse to work for the state." I shrug. "I personally consider the Chinese government's way of utilising metahumans to be inefficient; they value control above utility. But, China has the largest army in the world. If they didn't have slightly better superheroes, they would still have plenty of ways to beat down 'enemies of the state'. Probably with a higher body count."
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    Some more willing than others, at that.

    I'm being a little disingenuous. I'll fully aware that part of the Great Ten's 'hazing' involves sending new members to beat up lightly or entirely unarmed demonstrators. It's a useful way of forcing them to identify with their team and with the state, and to deny them the opportunity to establish a separate support base for themselves amongst said 'enemies of the state'. And the possibility of a resistance movement forming around a powerful metahuman has gone from 'slight' to 'nonexistent'. And… 'Inefficient' is underselling exactly how I feel. I mean, I get it for the ones with destructive powers, but some of the people they've given life imprisonment sentences to…
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    What, they send people who can sing as their own choir to break up riots? Or people who can change colors of things at a glance? <facepalm>

    But even if this version of Lonnie ends up going the 'profound honesty' route I certainly won't.

    "So…" He shakes his head. "You don't think you could make a difference? You're not going to use your leverage at all?"

    "China has about… Five top tier superfunctionaries." August General, Immortal Man, Thundermind, Ghost Fox Killer and Celestial Archer. "I've helped three of them slightly. That gives me minimal leverage, and none at all outside of the narrow area of metahuman security. And if I sound off in public about some of the things I'd prefer them to do differently I'd lose the ability to influence them within my area of expertise. And while I might prefer it if certain things were different, I must live in the world that exists."
    Click to expand...
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    "Seriously, the world is not a video game, Mr Machin. People do actually remember things."

    So let's not talk about the negotiations between Lex and the politburo concerning Security Council support for his planetary defence fleet, because I really don't want them to spot that in a move stolen from World War Z's Cuba I'm going to turn their own soldiers into social Trojan horses. Or that we intend to ensure that all of Earth's off-world colonies are liberal, capitalist and democraticish and not beholden to any Earth nation state.

    "Mister Machin, it's not that government oppression doesn't bother me, it's that legion of murder-faries from the future bend on harvesting your civilisation bother me more. It's that space pirates bent on plunder and malign wizards bent on mass murder bother me more. Those are the things the Earth rather needs me to focus my energies on. Perhaps you'd rather that I do something else."
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    Nice touch, reminding people of the scary things beyond the solar system.

    I shrug.

    "And perhaps you could even make a convincing utilitarian argument for it; I'm far from being a perfect judge of such things. But by and large, I think I'm taking the right approach. Though if you want to try and change the Chinese government's minds on any subject, feel free. I doubt that you're involved in any other work with them that might be damaged by it so you've got a far freer hand than I do."
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    I'm sure they'll listen to a foreign preteen with all the seriousness they believe he deserves.

    "But-."

    "Tell you what. I'm sure that you could keep pushing me all evening. Why don't you let someone else have a turn now-" Because I'm supposed to be not-electioneering, not re-evaluating my entire strategy. "-and come and see be backstage once this is over? I'll try and give you the level of detail that might actually satisfy you."

    He hesitates again, then nods.

    "Thank you. I'll do that."
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    Ah, recruitment proceeds apace.
    Correction: see me backstage'

    And Lonnie Machin makes his appearance. In Renegade at least. No doubt the Paragon version is working himself up to running about Gotham in stilts, trenchcoat and gold mask as this happens...
     
    Okay, thst was beautiful. In fiction in general and fanfics especially, super smart children either railroad the heroes/villains or get a humiliating smack down.

    Grayven was polite, yet dominated the talk but didn't humiliate him. Nicely done, Zoat!
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    Technically, only Lynne is a New God as she's the only one who started human. But I'm sure we can work on it if that bothers the younger children.
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    I'm a bit confused as to what this sentence means, because surely Tawny/Michael is also a New God despite not being human. I'm not sure if the succupire children's souls are composed of earthly magics or hellish ones, but if it's the latter it would be interesting to see if Renegade and his allies could adapt the Awakening process to work on non-terrestrial souls.

    Mr Zoat said:
    I shrug. "Mister Machin, you're a conscientious sort of chap, so I assume that you watched my interrogation of the British Parliament's Preternatural Scrutiny Select Committee?"
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    Might I also suggest a link here to jog people's memories? For a while I thought this was some off-screen event that took place after Renegade overthrew the British government because I didn't remember the committee's name.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "China has about… Five top tier superfunctionaries." August General, Immortal Man, Thundermind, Ghost Fox Killer and Celestial Archer. "I've helped three of them slightly.
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    I'd say he's helped four of them, and in Immortal Man's case that help is significant; of course, Renegade doesn't have to be truthful here, but I don't see much difference between saying three and four if he's trying to hold things back.
     
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