With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Piratefish]

Depends on if the valkyrie sent to judge you thinks it should count. If you were a valkyrie and Odin said to get him warriors, would you let that guy in?

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Another thing about the norse afterlife is that it's more of an afterlives. And even if you do die in battle, you've only about a 50% chance of ending up in vallhalla specifically: Freya takes half of the slain to her hall, Sessrumne, and has first pick, per the peace treaty between the aesir and vanir.

 

[Soul Shocker]

To be fair, he's really hard to damage, and very much aware that if whatever is being shot at him misses, it could hit someone who is a hell of a lot more squishy than he is. Superman doesn't fear the bullets that hit him, he fears the ones that miss.

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Shouldn't he also worry about ricochets?

 

[Darko]

OL said that someone sued him because a bullet bounced off him and hit the one that sued him.

 

[Prince Charon]

Shouldn't he also worry about ricochets?

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Yes, but he has super-speed, so he can catch them.

 

[david]

Superman 1.000.000 was altered in getting a big boost to his powers.
There have been other versions who weren't similarly altered but managed to live for eons.
Red Son comes to mind.

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I wouldn't call Red Son "unaltered" seeing as how

Spoiler: red son ending

he is (a highly evolved) human rather than kryptonian.

 

[Darko]

True, but i was thinking more along the lines of him, Red Son, not receiving any additional powers or a boost to his already existing powers like DC 1.000.000 Superman did and only having the powers that were granted to him by evolution.

 

[Stsword]

True, but i was thinking more along the lines of him, Red Son, not receiving any additional powers or a boost to his already existing powers like DC 1.000.000 Superman did and only having the powers that were granted to him by evolution.

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There is no evidence that Superman 1 mill got anything beyond what he got naturally from his millenia of sundipping.

The idea that he breached the Source Wall was based on nothing but a metaphor about the expression on his face looking like he had gone past the gates of Heaven and still hadn't found what he was looking for.

Funny tidbit in the Grounded storyline, they made Superman Vandal Savage's origin. So in that story, Vandal is 50 thousand years old off of kryptonian longevity and healing factor bestowed on him by time lost Sunstone.

As for kryptonian longevity, Superman 1 mill has nothing on Superman Null. He outlived his universe. Which he kept from dying until his only companion, a god, died.

 

[nick012000]

Ms Lane shrugs. "She can take the heat from the Jewish Anti-Defamation League if she wants to."

It's completely inappropriate, but I can't help but smile. And Ms Lane looks a little too curious at my reaction.

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Don't forget the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Of course, she probably can take the heat, because a good chunk of people would just file it away under "Left-wing group says that something's racist again"... and I think that things might be starting to stray into modern politics (even if all the groups involved are well over 20 years old), so I'll just stop there.

 

[Darko]

I thought that Superman 1 mil was the one from All Star Superman that got a massive dose of sunlight when he saved those astronauts.

 

[Stsword]

I thought that Superman 1 mil was the one from All Star Superman that got a massive dose of sunlight when he saved those astronauts.

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Why assume there is only one timeline that can result in Superman 1 million in the DC multiverse?

Electric Warriors tied in Kamandi Last Boy on Earth, DC 1 Million, and the post-rebirth Legion of Superheroes.

 

[Darko]

Zoat is Circe the daughter of Helios in your story like in the myths, or was that something she made up or someone else made up and was simply recorded?

 

[icsm]

Which is pretty suspicous if you think about it. It sounds very much like someone plugging a loophole in a flawed system.

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Think of it as Natural Selection applied to religion. A cult that believes suicide to be the worst thing you can do is much more likely to stick around and spread itself than a cult that believes suicide to be benefitial.

 

[Mquz]

Zoat is Circe the daughter of Helios in your story like in the myths, or was that something she made up or someone else made up and was simply recorded?

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Seems like she might have been a priestess or something? Though her powers don't come from him, so probably not.

 

[Darko]

I was thinking that Hecate gave her her powers because of her heritage, or maybe she saw some potential in Circe.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat is Circe the daughter of Helios in your story like in the myths, or was that something she made up or someone else made up and was simply recorded?

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I haven't thought about it.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

Yes, but he has super-speed, so he can catch them.

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He has super-speed when the writers bother to remember to give it too him. And really, he should be able to snatch the gun away before they can even pull the trigger, like The Flash sometimes does, there aren't any riccochets if the gun never fires.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Not really - there's a reason why Christian doctrine punishes suicide. If you commit suicide you don't go to heaven and there's no tricking god. Same thing with, say, the Norse Afterlife (no Valhalla for people who don't die in battle), and plenty of others would consider this "cheating the system". When people actually "know" / believe beyond a doubt a religion is the truth (a situation which has happened plenty in real life) there's usually a reason they don't commit suicide. Otherwise, suicide cults would be more common.

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Technically thats a misconception, on pretty much all levels.

Suicide in Catholic Theology primarily puts the mortal sin bits of why suicide is bad is doing it out of despair because you can't repent if you're dead. For example if you kill yourself trying to do something i.e. you're aware that this has a good chance of killing me / probably will kill me but you're doing it because X i.e. fire fighters, or soldiers in war the catholic church's opinion is its not a sin. If you take a fistful of pills and vodka because of a bad break up its a sin. (This was a big deal back in World War II for plane and ship crews as well as soldiers in general, but also again later in Vietnam)

Valhal's entry requirements further just requires you to be dead by weapons or the result of an enemy. We see this recorded in the saga were a norse men leaps upon a bed of spears, after telling his captors to tell his step mother to tell her sons he died well. He doesn't die in what we would conventionally consider battle, but is still accorded the status of valiant dead. Similarly men sacrified (by hanging) to Odin are generally thought to end up in Valhal. Secondly while we have less conclusive proof in later surviving material its probable the at there were other Norse afterlives besides the two options of going to Odin or Hel. ANd quite frankly Hel's Nifleheim is more like the Greek Erebus than it is the Christian tradition of Hell.

 

[TheEyes]

He doesn't feel any obligation to run certain classes of decision past the League, as he doesn't feel that they're better at making them than he is.

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Does he believe he is in charge of the League then? Because the League is in charge of the Team and its membership, last I was aware of. Did OL launch a coup?

Even if he were in charge, this was a very presumptuous decision to force on both the Team and the League. Creating buy in by keeping lines of communication open and discussing decisions before making them is a basic part of teamwork; you'd think that after the most recent episode in Vega that Paul wouldn't forget that so quickly.

 

[Mquz]

Technically thats a misconception, on pretty much all levels.

Suicide in Catholic Theology primarily puts the mortal sin bits of why suicide is bad is doing it out of despair because you can't repent if you're dead. For example if you kill yourself trying to do something i.e. you're aware that this has a good chance of killing me / probably will kill me but you're doing it because X i.e. fire fighters, or soldiers in war the catholic church's opinion is its not a sin. If you take a fistful of pills and vodka because of a bad break up its a sin. (This was a big deal back in World War II for plane and ship crews as well as soldiers in general, but also again later in Vietnam)

Valhal's entry requirements further just requires you to be dead by weapons or the result of an enemy. We see this recorded in the saga were a norse men leaps upon a bed of spears, after telling his captors to tell his step mother to tell her sons he died well. He doesn't die in what we would conventionally consider battle, but is still accorded the status of valiant dead. Similarly men sacrified (by hanging) to Odin are generally thought to end up in Valhal. Secondly while we have less conclusive proof in later surviving material its probable the at there were other Norse afterlives besides the two options of going to Odin or Hel. ANd quite frankly Hel's Nifleheim is more like the Greek Erebus than it is the Christian tradition of Hell.

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Yeah, but going into a dangerous situation isn't suicide - you never intend to die. You just prioritize a cause over survival. I'd still say suicide bombing/ kamikaze is different.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Yeah, but going into a dangerous situation isn't suicide - you never intend to die. You just prioritize a cause over survival. I'd still say suicide bombing/ kamikaze is different.

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And I'd agree, but I think thats probably a generational shift in values, versus how people looked at it in 1930 versus 70 years later

 

[Darko]

I am convinced that Zoat may one day write a scenario where Pauls thoughtless actions lead to something bad happening and he will have to rethink how he goes about doing things. Such as telling the people who he technically works fro that he is bringing a nazi into one of their bases where their students, several of which fall under the category of people her philosophy encourages her to kill, live, without removing her powers.
Yeah after the whole Vega incident and the lack of communication you would think that OL would try to increase how much he cooperates and communicates with people.
Though when i read that episode and what followed i was reminded of OL and the Nabu incident. He could have potentially worked out a way to get Giovanni back without killing Nabu, such as asking Aquaman to recommend several mages that could serve as hosts. He wanted to go less bloodshed and genocide on Vega after his first genocide and may have let the Psions go if they released their prisoners, which would have been bad as i can't help but imagine them going to the Reach and making weapons to fight the OLC, such as potentially figuring out a way to make their soldiers power ring proof, like that golden skinned pirate lady that attacked that peace conference in Vega was and OL gave her to the Psions, though i guess she died with most of everyone on the Psion homeworld.
I am also pretty sure that OL similarly thought that now he knows how the League felt when he didn't communicate with them about getting rid of Nabu.

 

[Imperator Pax]

There's also the badass who WINS every important fight in his long life. So good no one can kill him yet denied Valhalla/Gre'thor (yes, this originally occurred to me concerning Klingons) because he was too good a warrior?

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To expound on this, in NOrse mythology, Odin cheats to get the best warriors to his side, and the other gods repeatedly call him out on this.

ANd his excuse is 'yeah but Ragnarok, and Loki's bastard wolf child.' So basically the idea is Odin will probably make you lose at some point. This is also a point why in later Norse society why Beserkers (associated with Odin) are generally the bad guy because they're blessed/ cursed to be immune to steel and fire (though that depends on myth and tradition)

 

[Mr Zoat]

Does he believe he is in charge of the League then? Because the League is in charge of the Team and its membership, last I was aware of. Did OL launch a coup?

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That's not actually a hard and fast rule. Remember how Richard, Wallace and Kaldur tried recruiting Speedy in canon? And how Batman's opening introduction didn't mention recruitment authority, just training and mission assignment? The League can certainly drop people off, but... At this point the team has enough experience to basically handle things themselves.

Even if he were in charge, this was a very presumptuous decision to force on both the Team and the League. Creating buy in by keeping lines of communication open and discussing decisions before making them is a basic part of teamwork; you'd think that after the most recent episode in Vega that Paul wouldn't forget that so quickly.

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Not talking to the League is why Zatara isn't still a Nabu hatstand. Vega was more about taking his eye off the ball, which he isn't doing on Earth.

 

[Darko]

Zatara could still have stopped being a Nabu hatstand if OL had talked to Orin and asked him to recommend some mages who could serve as hosts to Nabu.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zatara could still have stopped being a Nabu hatstand if OL had talked to Orin and asked him to recommend some mages who could serve as hosts to Nabu.

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Want to guess how many top-tier Atlantean mages would be remotely interested in that sort of pact?

 

[Galler]

Zatara could still have stopped being a Nabu hatstand if OL had talked to Orin and asked him to recommend some mages who could serve as hosts to Nabu.

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You have it the wrong way round, Zatara couldn't do anything. Its Nabu who could have stopped possessing Zatara. By the point that OL and every one involved in Team Nabu were ready to discuss there plans with the League they were all too angry. Enough so that they were seeing everything to do with Nabu in its worst light.

 

[Stsword]

Actually Circe claimed her father was Hyperion in the comics, so it seems the ancient Greeks confused their solar deities there.

So she's related by marriage to Lilith Clay, who is the daughter of Hyperion's wife.

 

[TheEyes]

That's not actually a hard and fast rule. Remember how Richard, Wallace and Kaldur tried recruiting Speedy in canon? And how Batman's opening introduction didn't mention recruitment authority, just training and mission assignment? The League can certainly drop people off, but... At this point the team has enough experience to basically handle things themselves.

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I can't imagine that the actual governance structure of the Team is that informal. After all, Wayne is one of the founders; if nothing else, he'd want to have an official structure so he could keep some of the looser cannons, like Robin and OL, in line.

Not talking to the League is why Zatara isn't still a Nabu hatstand. Vega was more about taking his eye off the ball, which he isn't doing on Earth.

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Both of these are disingenuous arguments. OL didn't talk to the League about Nabu because he had reason to believe that the mind controlling alien artifact had compromised the League. Is he now thinking that the Jewish Defamation League has mind controlled the Justice League?

As for Vega, is that what OL took away from the incident? That anyone can do anything they want, and it's the people who might object whose responsibility it is to keep him in line? That's basically Vandal Savage morality, and a big departure from the guy who generally wanted to be helpful and non-threatening.

 

[Cuchulin]

Both of these are disingenuous arguments. OL didn't talk to the League about Nabu because he had reason to believe that the mind controlling alien artifact had compromised the League. Is he now thinking that the Jewish Defamation League has mind controlled the Justice League?

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He also knew that the Justice League had a very different view of Nabu than him due to the legacy Kent Nelson and them being mostly unaware of there being much of difference between Doctor Fate with Nabu more or less in charge and with out. So even if none of the League members were compromised there was a good chance they would compromise his effort to free Zatara by talking about it to the wrong person.

 

[Steelplaza]

I can't imagine that the actual governance structure of the Team is that informal. After all, Wayne is one of the founders; if nothing else, he'd want to have an official structure so he could keep some of the looser cannons, like Robin and OL, in line.

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I have to disagree, it seems very in line with the League's own vague governance.

The Team collectively, and Kaldur as their leader invested with authority by the members, have a lot of independence from the League. They certainly have the authority to invite someone to work with them on a temporary basis. OL sold Kaldur on his "try to reform the Nazi" plan and so they're going forward with it.

If the situation were reversed and someone on the League, say Captain Marvel, wanted to have Overgirl work with the League in an attempt to reform her then it would be appropriate and necessary for Marvel to consult the other League members about what he wanted to do and get their concurrence. But would Captain Marvel be expected to get Kaldur's permission? Of course not.

So why is it different with the Team? No, let me go ahead and answer that. It's different because the Team is made up of children who are under the authority of adults and need to get adult permission before they try something like this, right? Except the Team doesn't really act like that when it comes to other major decisions and risks.