With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[jonasquinn]

He's picking up more SI-variants. The concern is that he will find out that this group are working with Time Trapper.

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Okay but why the Manhunters? He seemed perfectly fine doing it himself before and sending robots that can be fairly easily defeated by any Lantern with a decent understanding of their abilities seems extremely inefficient

 

[Mr Zoat]

Okay but why the Manhunters? He seemed perfectly fine doing it himself before and sending robots that can be fairly easily defeated by any Lantern with a decent understanding of their abilities seems extremely inefficient

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Krona got his finger sliced by renegade and may be more cautious now.

He could have also lost his power, or at least a portion of it, seeing as the blade can kill gods and strip them of their power, though seeing as he isn't an arcane being maybe he is immune.

The other reason he is sending Manhunters instead of doing it himself may be because he doesn't have time to do it and needs to focus on his project.

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[Vaermina]

No she just went to the Bufffyverse Germany

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Why would a doppleganger of a DC hero be alive in the Buffyverse?

Only way something like that is happening is with literal divine intervention.

 

[jonasquinn]

Why would a doppleganger of a DC hero be alive in the Buffyverse?

Only way something like that is happening is with literal divine intervention.

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I mean, not really?

The whole idea of the multiverse is that there are infinite realities that range from slightly different from each other to unrecognisably different it's inevitable that there would be some realities where despite not having the DC heroes active there are still completely normal versions of them

Hal Jordan could never get his ring, Bruce Wayne could live a happy life with his parents or Clark Kent could be just born a regular human or even an alien that doesn't get superpowers from the Sun

Drawing the line at "this particular character happens to have an alternate self in this reality" is a little weird don't you think?

 

[ForeverShogo]

The existence of the Hitler clone should be meaningless. It's not Hitler. He wasn't even raised to be a Nazi only to abandon it later in life.

Like, maybe if she was in a universe where the conspiracy theories about Hitler escaping to South America were true and he had abandoned Nazism, felt remorse for ever making Nazism a thing, and had an inter-racial family. I could see THAT being a shock to the system.

But the clone is never going to be anything more than someone who happens to be physically identical to Hitler.

A shame we'll probably never see how Overman and Overgirl end up reforming the system. Because I don't see either of them willing to do the things you'd have to do to destroy Nazism in their world. Unless you think they'd make amends for genocide by committing their own genocide.

I still think best you're going to get is them using their power, popularity, and longevity to try to "redeem" Nazism and make it into what they think it should be rather than what it is. Though I also imagine even that will be a struggle. Most people on Earth 10 probably only care that the Nazis gave them utopian living conditions. Even if they cheated their way to it by reverse-engineering Kryptonian technologies.

 

[Darko]

So basically they will try to make their government more benevolent for everyone, like how Baul was trying to make the Syndicate more practical and benevolent.

Speaking of -14 that could be a way in which we see them reforming the system.
Paul and Zatanna went there and managed to work something out, so maybe Paul will help Karl and Angelika with their world

 

[jonasquinn]

The existence of the Hitler clone should be meaningless. It's not Hitler. He wasn't even raised to be a Nazi only to abandon it later in life.

Like, maybe if she was in a universe where the conspiracy theories about Hitler escaping to South America were true and he had abandoned Nazism, felt remorse for ever making Nazism a thing, and had an inter-racial family. I could see THAT being a shock to the system.

But the clone is never going to be anything more than someone who happens to be physically identical to Hitler.

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First off I would remind you that the Nazis put way too much emphasis on "purity of genes" and their supposed "genetic superiority"

Having a complete genetic copy of their founder and hero not only disagree with their ideology but also living a happy life with a black wife and mixed race children kind of fundamentally disproves that belief and would be a huge blow to them

A shame we'll probably never see how Overman and Overgirl end up reforming the system. Because I don't see either of them willing to do the things you'd have to do to destroy Nazism in their world. Unless you think they'd make amends for genocide by committing their own genocide.

I still think best you're going to get is them using their power, popularity, and longevity to try to "redeem" Nazism and make it into what they think it should be rather than what it is. Though I also imagine even that will be a struggle. Most people on Earth 10 probably only care that the Nazis gave them utopian living conditions. Even if they cheated their way to it by reverse-engineering Kryptonian technologies.

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Keep in mind that the Nazis already won a long time ago in their reality, they've already done most of the stuff they said they were going to and while there are a few groups of "subhumans" left that's almost entirely because of Karl refusing to allow any more Purges to occur

I imagine that what Karl and Angelika would try to do would be to get their society to view the Purges as a horrible catastrophe that didn't need to happen and served no real purpose rather than celebrating them, ensuring that they never happen again and helping the survivors recover and rebuild as best as they can

It would be extraordinarily difficult but still possible

 

[Vaermina]

I mean, not really?

The whole idea of the multiverse is that there are infinite realities that range from slightly different from each other to unrecognisably different it's inevitable that there would be some realities where despite not having the DC heroes active there are still completely normal versions of them

Hal Jordan could never get his ring, Bruce Wayne could live a happy life with his parents or Clark Kent could be just born a regular human or even an alien that doesn't get superpowers from the Sun

Drawing the line at "this particular character happens to have an alternate self in this reality" is a little weird don't you think?

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That's the DC multiverse.

The Buffy universe is different from that in that it's very specifically an artificially constructed universe created by the Seed of Wonder. Meaning, unlike the various DC multiverses which all spawn off of Earth Prime, without actual divine intervention there wouldn't be any DC doppelgangers existing there.

 

[ForeverShogo]

Yes. Sure. But even the Nazis didn't think their beliefs were part of their genetic code. They still felt the need to indoctrinate and Germanize acceptable peoples.

The Hitler clone doesn't really disprove anything because an ardent Nazi would probably just get angry that you cloned Hitler just to indoctrinate him into degeneracy or whatever the fuck they'd call it.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

That's the DC multiverse.

The Buffy universe is different from that in that it's very specifically an artificially constructed universe created by the Seed of Wonder. Meaning, unlike the various DC multiverses which all spawn off of Earth Prime, without actual divine intervention there wouldn't be any DC doppelgangers existing there.

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By that logic, Zaul shouldn't be there either and Time Trapper shouldn't have been able to drop off Raul, Overgirl and the SI, and yet here we are.

 

[jonasquinn]

Yes. Sure. But even the Nazis didn't think their beliefs were part of their genetic code. They still felt the need to indoctrinate and Germanize acceptable peoples.

The Hitler clone doesn't really disprove anything because an ardent Nazi would probably just get angry that you cloned Hitler just to indoctrinate him into degeneracy or whatever the fuck they'd call it.

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I mean, an ardent Nazi will deny any evidence proving them wrong, of which there is a lot, but one that's already doubting themselves will find encountering a total genetic replica of Hitler and having him hate everything to do with Nazism is pretty significant

That's the DC multiverse.

The Buffy universe is different from that in that it's very specifically an artificially constructed universe created by the Seed of Wonder. Meaning, unlike the various DC multiverses which all spawn off of Earth Prime, without actual divine intervention there wouldn't be any DC doppelgangers existing there.

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I dunno, that sounds like some Life Entity shenanigans to me

 

[zerofarad]

Very powerful chapter. I like it.

 

[Siskulous]

Is it just me or was OL's reaction at the end a little out of character? When's the last time we saw him be that short with anyone? I mean, yeah, she fucked up pretty hard there, but he's usually a master of looking at things from other people's viewpoints and being understanding and patient with them no matter how difficult and/or stupid they're being (the highest of virtues when dealing with people).

 

[Mr Zoat]

Is it just me or was OL's reaction at the end a little out of character? When's the last time we saw him be that short with anyone? I mean, yeah, she fucked up pretty hard there, but he's usually a master of looking at things from other people's viewpoints and being understanding and patient with them no matter how difficult and/or stupid they're being (the highest of virtues when dealing with people).

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He did just have to deal with red-him getting distracted in the same way.

 

[Darko]

Is it just me or was OL's reaction at the end a little out of character? When's the last time we saw him be that short with anyone? I mean, yeah, she fucked up pretty hard there, but he's usually a master of looking at things from other people's viewpoints and being understanding and patient with them no matter how difficult and/or stupid they're being (the highest of virtues when dealing with people).

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He is having a stressful day.

Also he doesn't always view things from other people's perspectives. The thing with Nabu comes to mind.

 

[jonasquinn]

Is it just me or was OL's reaction at the end a little out of character? When's the last time we saw him be that short with anyone? I mean, yeah, she fucked up pretty hard there, but he's usually a master of looking at things from other people's viewpoints and being understanding and patient with them no matter how difficult and/or stupid they're being (the highest of virtues when dealing with people).

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I think at any other time OL would be overjoyed about Angelika confronting her issues but now is not the time

They're in the middle of an interdimensional mission, trying to avoid attracting the attention of one of the most dangerous people in DC short of the Anti-Monitor or Darkseid and he's just had to deal with cleaning up Raul's mess

 

[Cuchulin]

I think at any other time OL would be overjoyed about Angelika confronting her issues but now is not the time
They're in the middle of an interdimensional mission, trying to avoid attracting the attention of one of the most dangerous people in DC short of the Anti-Monitor or Darkseid and he's just had to deal with cleaning up Raul's mess

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Agreed, though better now than when she confronts Red Skull or Arnim Zola (which she just might).

 

[Stsword]

Oh this reminds me, there is a crossover that ties DC comics to Buffy in the comics.

Fallen Angel (originally published by DC) is a stealth sequel to Supergirl, she showed up as Lin, the former defender of the city of Bete Noir.

Illyria from Angel showed up in Bete Noir to retrieve one of her icons, the three pieces her power was placed in when she was killed.

So Linda Danvers was the guardian of the city that hid a piece of Illyria.

 

[Vaermina]

Oh this reminds me, there is a crossover that ties DC comics to Buffy in the comics.

Fallen Angel (originally published by DC) is a stealth sequel to Supergirl, she showed up as Lin, the former defender of the city of Bete Noir.

Illyria from Angel showed up in Bete Noir to retrieve one of her icons, the three pieces her power was placed in when she was killed.

So Linda Danvers was the guardian of the city that hid a piece of Illyria.

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Yes and no.

Yes, Illyria was in Fallen Angels, and no, Lin was not Supergirl.

Also that was non-canon to Buffy.

 

[Stsword]

Yes and no.

Yes, Illyria was in Fallen Angels, and no, Lin was not Supergirl.

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Hmm, I can believe you, or apply critical thinking skills and believe the author who flat out stated that Lin was Linda Danvers.

Author- "Can I say this is Linda Danvers? Of course I can't. However, it's pretty freaking obvious that it is."


I think I'll apply critical thinking skills, thank you

 

[Mr Zoat]

12th August 1997
23:58 GMT -7

"A few hours, Angelika."

I shake my head at her, trying not to look at the burning pits Red-me burned into the Sunnydale landscape. It's not that I don't understand why. Empathic vision shows clearly that she's now part way towards resolving her internal contradictions. In any circumstances other than one in which we'd been told specifically not to encounter parallel universe versions of ourselves I'd be delighted.

"I-. I know."

"Fucking red wanker!"

"Heart ready for-"

There's a quiet poof as William the Bloody turns into a pile of dust.

"-harvesting."

Can't say Red isn't efficient. With Mayor Wilkins, Spike and Glory dead, I guess Buffy can take a year off to actually have a life. A few years, actually. I wonder if her desire to get her slayer-work done as quickly as possible would make her a good choice for an orange ring?

"Are you finished?"

Red nods. "That's it for now."

"We're work-." I make a point of flying through Red Queen's portal and waiting for them. Angelika is through a moment later, followed first by Red and then Black. "We're working for a time traveller. Why could none of you wait?"

"Red ring."

"And if you were a feral monster I'd accept that for an answer."

"I'm not making an excuse, I'm saying-. It encourages you to think-" The portal closes. "-in certain ways. And-."

"And I use an orange ring. I wanted them dead too, but that doesn't mean that I couldn't wait until we're done."

He frowns. "Really? I'd have thought that you'd have had to embrace our impulsive side."

"I learned not to indulge myself."

Komand'r flies over my head with an unpleasant chuckle. "Bet that makes your girlfriend happy." She kisses Red. Loudly. "Hey bae. Kill anyone good?"

"No, I only kill bad people. And you know vampires don't leave good skulls."

She floats on to take a look at Black. "And this is the new you?"

He leans away. "Tamaranean. I don't like sunlight."

"Yeah, I see that."

"The point I was making is that I've learned to act when I'm angry. The things that make me angry are -I think- things that a right-thinking person would get angry about, but condition themselves to accept. Time Trapper didn't tell us not to kill people, we know they're bad-."

"Get over here!"

We look around at Time Trapper's exclamation, then fly over to the spire.

"Alright, simple question: have any of you had any contact with parallel universe versions of yourselves before?"

Angelika glances awkwardly at me. Red and Black shake their heads, while I nod.

"Yes."

"How many?"

"Ten different versions. I met the blue version of me-. Us, from Earth negative fourteen. I also visited his parallel. I also.. got.. visions of three other versions of us; an indigo version, a version with an anti-green ring and-" I nod at Red. "-you."

"Me?"

"I saw you rescuing Komand'r from some police officers and… I think you had a good argument, there. And then I.. saw you return to your home with her, stow your armour-. You keep skulls?"

"I feel immense satisfaction whenever I look at them."

"You've met before?!"

"No, just-. Ambush Bug did something that made me see parts of their lives from their perspective. And then the next year I got visions of a yellow ring user, someone with angel wings grafted to his back and several other orange ring users."

"And you didn't think to mention that?"

"You came to me, having met me before. You didn't ask. I don't know how this works."

"And it was Ambush Bug who did it?"

"Irwin Schwab, yes."

"Wait." Komand'r's starting to smile. "Do you insist on using everyone's real name as well?" Her smile grows, and she elbows Red. "You do!"

"Indigo." The Time Trapper nods. "Indigo. We can work with that. The indigo light can serve as a link… Did he have a staff?"

"Yes." I frown. "Which… Seems a little unfair." I look at Red. "Did you-?"

He shakes his head. "Lord Atrocitus gave me one. You?"

"Alan Scott gave me his. Black?"

"I don't use a lantern. I don't even know where this ring came from."

"'This ring'?"

"Yes?"

"Say 'my ring'."

"Why?"

"I spent a year being literally incapable of saying 'my ring' until I met my ring's creator and she gave me the ability. It was always 'this ring' or 'the ring'."

Red raises his eyebrows. "You met your ring's creator?"

"You haven't?"

"No, this-. My ring, the ring I'm wearing now, was made by Lord Atrocitus. He took the ring I started with because he didn't trust it."

"Can you call it 'my ring'?"

"The ring-. The ring-." He blinks. "No, I can't."

"Did you ever talk to the Controllers?"

"Why would I? Lord Atrocitus hates them for being part of the Manhunter development program."

"Black?"

"If I left the Earth, I might forget 'why' and just float there for eternity."

Time Trapper exhales. "Though it does suggest that Controller Hinon is disturbingly insecure, it's just a memetic program. Red Queen, please open-."

A new portal opens.

"Thank you. You need to acquire this Indigo Lantern, or confirm his disappearance. If you get him, I can get to work on-."

"That portal isn't mine."

 

[Prince Charon]

A new portal opens.

"Thank you. You need to acquire this Indigo Lantern, or confirm his disappearance. If you get him, I can get to work on-."

"That portal isn't mine."

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Oh, dear.

 

[moralrelativity]

I wanted them dead too, but that doesn't mean that wait until we're done.

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The second 'that' doesn't sound right but I don't know how to fix it because I can't tell what OL means to say.

Hey bae.

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bae -> babe (?)

"That portal isn't mine."

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Shits gunna go down.

 

[Queshire]

"No, just-. Ambush Bug did something that made me see parts of their life from their perspective. And then the next year I got visions of a yellow ring user, someone with angel rings grafted to his back and several other orange ring users."

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Angel rings should be wings

 

[Vaermina]

Hmm, I can believe you, or apply critical thinking skills and believe the author who flat out stated that Lin was Linda Danvers.

Author- "Can I say this is Linda Danvers? Of course I can't. However, it's pretty freaking obvious that it is."


I think I'll apply critical thinking skills, thank you

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The IDW portion of the run directly states that Lee wasn't Linda Danvers...

You really really should read up on things you debate instead of relying on massively out of date wikia articles.

 

[Whenever Possible]

Ah, so Paulragon experiences some of the other paul viewpoints from various chapters? But presumably not renegrayven or Time Trapper chapters.

I wonder what the distinction means.

Edit: my first guesses are the foreign soul structures that Desaad's father box stapled to renegrayven and Time Trapper's atemporal nature. But there are presumably hundreds of other Paul's that Paulragon didn't have visions of.

 

[Oglymogly]

"I spent a year being literally incapable of saying 'my ring' until I met my ring's creator and she gave me the ability. It was always 'this ring' or 'the ring."

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Holy crap, that was the second compulsion? I could never figure it out! And I burned out on the full thread read through right as I got to that arc. Dann. Well, now I know.

 

[DAT_NOOB]

"Can you call it 'my ring'?"

"The ring-. The ring-." He blinks. "No, I can't ."

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wait does this only apply when referring to the ring he arrived with? cause it can't be saying the words 'my ring' as Raul says those words just before?

"No, this-. My ring, the ring I'm wearing now, was made by Lord Atrocitus. He took the ring I started with because he didn't trust it."

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[Darko]

angel wings not angel rings

'that we can't wait' not just 'that wait'

Did paragon have an adventure offscreen when he saw those other versions of himself, or is this what Ambush Bug did to him coming back, if not then how did he see these other versions?

 

[Kindlus]

Yo0o could some one link me to the angel rings wiki idk what they are but there referenced in this chap as a substitute of a lantern ring bit I can't find info on it anywhere