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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

"No, not that. Your conduct in the duel, and afterwards."
And thus we have every way Paul messed up thrown in his face with zero understanding. I understand that he wants the world to be a certain level of rational, but blindly pretending it already is will not make it so.
 
My superiors are worried about what you might tear down next.
-
What you are telling me is that your government is filled with a bunch of cowards that prefer to send someone to deal with me, instead of doing it themselves due to being afraid of what I would do?
*silence*
- Paul, are you sure you are trying to have holyday with me?
 
And thus implying that you thought she fought you not over a point of principle, but because she was a berserker who's only thought was to mindlessly throw herself against you.
She's so angry that she's going to mindlessly throw herself at you in fury.

Joking aside, how dark are we going to go with this? Did she do that thing where people commit suicide to atone for their honor? It's been so long since that scene happened I honestly can barely remember it.
 
I'm kind of surprised the Hawkwoman thing is considered so significant that it has to be brought up by a government official, especially after the government has basically written off the Hawks as having 'gone native'. But I suppose ensuring a mutual understanding of cultural norms is important.

My main issue, I guess, is that it's been so long since that duel happened, and Jade more or less explained the same thing to Paragon in the chapter right after, so this seems like something that should have been resolved by now. I don't remember if Katar's conversation with Paragon about visiting her happened onscreen, but surely the former has enough of a grasp on the differences between Thanagarian culture and non-martial humans/Paragon to have properly explained the context (admittedly, he kind of did during the duel chapter, but then things got awkward because Paragon brought up the Blades of Alstair). And while Paragon can be blamed for continuing the conflict, in this case it does take both sides to perpetuate it, when Hawkwoman should know that Paragon doesn't have the same appreciation or understanding of her warrior code or whatever, so assigning blame solely to him isn't something I'd agree with.

Honestly when they said 'Hawkwoman incident' I thought they were referring to cultural shifts brought about by Sharon Parker or something.
 
"Cultural differences."

Right now I am imagining two people raised in different lands. Their letters look the same, they possess similar voices, they were taught consistently throughout their lives… But one was taught to speak as if their words are as dangerous as a motor vehicle while the other believes words reinforce society, empower one's mental foundations, and help others build themselves up. In the real world humans have a great deal in common with pieces of software which are directed to interact with unrelated software.

If I remember correctly during the Hawkwoman fight Paragon-Paul saw Green and a lot of Red through his empathic vision. Some of the red directed at herself. Recently Paul's enlightenment was revised following some soul/metaphysical damage which affected his superpower. I… do not think that this improved empathic vision would have helped old-Paul correctly handle Hawkwoman. I don't think he would intuit that a multi-layered culture clash was going on.

I wonder if Common Sense!Paul has read up on the cultures of the full Justice League or if he has something like Mazlowe's hierarchy to keep his confidence collared.
 
so significant that it has to be brought up by a government official, especially after the government has basically written off the Hawks as having 'gone native'. But I suppose ensuring a mutual understanding of cultural norms is important

The Hawks may not be considered fully reliable due to going native, but they may still be viewed as important due to them providing Thanagar with information about Earth, so they may wish to ensure that they have a smooth relationship.

Plus if Paul does repair his relationship with the Hawks then the Thanagarians may think that it will give them another avenue to gaining info about Paul due to the Hawks now being closer to him.
 
10th October 2012
02:17 GMT


The next painting in the gallery depicts one of Bleez's ancestors dressed in what I suspect is Thanagarian survey gear. There's a landing craft in the background and what I suspect is the future site of the castle in the background. The land is roughly the right shape, though I don't know how much they built it up before starting construction.
Probably not captured from a contemporary source, though I don't doubt they had some manner of visual recording at that point. I just doubt they would have been concerned with posing for art that might get made someday. :p Though I'm sure the fellow (or lady, it doesn't mention) is depicted with suitably heroic physique...

"What did he mean, 'when you intended to break it off'?"

"Havanian succession is hereditary. I imagine that he was assuming that humans and thanagarians can't reproduce together."
...Yeah, no hope of that. Humans are extremely compatible with other anthropoids, to surprising degrees. Just for half-Thanagarians, besides the JLU character Warhawk (We've seen him as a baby in Renegade's visits to Earth 50...) there's also Charley 'Golden Eagle' Parker, though I suspect he's not present on Earth-16 in that identity...

"Or that dalliances with aliens might be considered a sign of aristocratic eccentricity, but marrying one would be more serious."

"There's no danger of that. Though -ironically- the Thanagarian government would probably be fine with that, because it would tie me to the area. The opposition would come from local parties."
Though he'd win any duels offered handily, as we've seen before.

"How would a human man get Bleez pregnant?"

Jade's keeping her attention firmly on the painting. Ra's seems like the sort who'd include a course on art appreciation, but my own abilities to analyse paintings haven't improved since getting a good look at an original Adolf Hitler. Obviously they're laying claim to descent from the first people to explore Havania, implying that their rulership was destiny from that moment. But beyond that? There are objects and pieces of equipment which seem slightly out of place and probably have all sorts of significance, but…
Like I said, not from a contemporary source. Probably a bit of 'artist didn't bother to check his models and their props were correct.' anachronisms going on. Like so many 'historical' paintings where the subjects are clearly wearing far more modern armour, clothing or props.

"When a man and a woman-."

"Really?"
...No, no, I think he's actually going somewhere with this. Though I imagine their observers are facepalming right now. :D

"It's practically required. And that's more or less how it happens: arcane inertia. The magic systems of Earth that all presently existing humans carry within them know as a result of millions of generations that male and female humanoids having sex that it produces babies. Mere biology stands no chance against that sort of magic."

She turns her head slightly, just far enough to look at me.
Let's not forget the fact DC Earth is soaked in the White Light Entity's essence. :confused: ...Er, I could have put that better... But anyway! Humans are so infused with Life that they are supernaturally compatible with damn near anything with a suitable body shape.... And more than a few things that aren't...

"Is that really how it works?"

"It's hard to test without…" I shrug. "Getting a lot of people interested in conceiving with alien partners together and… Getting them to give it a try in a mystically regulated environment."
Not without feeling a bit eugenical, anyway. I doubt any serious place of learning would accept that proposal. :p

"So the first time the tamaraneans visit."

I nod. "So the first time the tamaraneans visit. I mean, I'll warn them that it can happen, but they're not… Good at restraint." I shrug, smiling. "If you can't be good, be safe. And if you can't so that, would you mind wearing this arm band so that we can monitor the process?"
Heh. Imagine humanity's reaction to that: An entire planet of suntanned, unspeakably beautiful Space People who have next to no inhibitions (by Human standards, at least.) Traditionalist sects would die of strokes from the sheer religious rage. :rolleyes:

"How do you know that? Because if you're working up to telling that that Princess really is your daughter, this is a really roundabout way of doing it."

"While it's not impossible that the Queen got hold of a sample of my DNA and used that… Somehow, the Queen isn't humanoid, and isn't physiologically… Even if I'd gotten right up to the base-"
Dude! Don't kiss... Er, grope and tell!

I make a grasping motion with both arms.

"-of her third leg, it wouldn't-."
An interesting variant of Third Base there. x3

There are footsteps a short distance behind us, and we turn to see that Ambassador Klus has joined us.

"Illustres. Darkstar."
I suppose there's no less awkward moment to approach them. Bet he's hoping they don't continue chatting about alien reproduction...

I nod politely. "Ambassador. I'm sorry, I'd have greeted you sooner but I didn't see your name on the guest list..?"

"I'm here on government business. Once we were notified that you were in the Thanagarian Empire and appeared to be staying in one place, I was tapped to speak with you."
Guess it's a bit sensitive to send in an e-mail, then. Bet that was frustrating for them, though: "Gods-dammit, why can't he stay in one place long enough?!"

"I'm on holiday."

He doesn't look entirely convinced. "Really?"
I'm sure he's at least cognizant of the concept... I hope.

Jade doesn't look convinced either. "He's trying." … "We're trying."

"And why did the Thanagarian government dispatch you?"
I'm sure the flight was expensive. And impressively fast. It's probably a couple of weeks' trip at conventional FTL speeds, I should wonder...

"Given your interactions with us to date, we felt it best that we ensure there aren't any more 'Hawkwoman' incidents."

"Hawkwoman incidents?"
Which Hawkwoman, there are several of them around now. Mostly thanks to OL, in fact.

His one remaining eye stares at me for several moments.

"You aren't aware, are you."
Surprised he doesn't have a cybernetic replacement. Or maybe he does, and just wears the eyepatch for looks because it isn't bothered by a little scrap of cloth...

"Ah. I called her a coward, she challenged me to a duel, she lost, we're trying to avoid each other? Aside from the visit here, anyway."

"You're not. Obviously human duelling traditions are different, but I'm a little surprised that no one has said anything to you."
Ah, the Justice League's Hawkwoman. On the other hand, has he been around anyone aware of the fight long enough to have been told whatever he did wrong?

"About what?"

He walks a little closer and drapes his arms over the gallery railings.

"About the extent of your insult to her."
Nothing untoward's happened to her, I hope...

"Well, yes, martial culture, obviously she wouldn't take being called a coward well. I don't take my friends being enslaved well."

"No, not that. Your conduct in the duel, and afterwards."
...Let me guess, he was too merciful?

I frown. "Was I supposed to kill her or something?"

"Or something." He straightens up. "You apparently don't understand why she was duelling you. It wasn't because she wanted to force you to take your accusation back; it was to disprove it, both to you and to her. You're an Illustres; she didn't think she could beat you in a fight. She wanted to prove that she was prepared to face an unbeatable foe without flinching. And what did you do?"
...Ah. I get it... She's been feeling a little dishonoured?

He gestures towards me with arms and wings.

"Rather than presenting an unbeatable foe, you used the minimum amount of force possible in an attempt to spare her injury. You treated her like an adolescent sparring with a tutor. You put her on the ground without injuring her, repeatedly, and only started injuring her when the referee told you it was required, all the time asking him to call off the fight. Implying that you found her attempts to prove herself irrelevant. And then you tried to surrender as if she was an irrational child acting out, not a warrior on the verge of reclaiming her pride."
Yeah, I can see where that might be insulting...

"None of what you're saying makes me think I was wrong."

He looks away. "Of course it doesn't." He shakes his head before returning his attention to me. "And then the ultimate insult. Among thanagarians, in a fight like that the two parties would meet afterwards. She would acknowledge that you were right about her previous behaviour, and you would acknowledge that she had overcome that weakness."
I can feel his frustration.

"The moral cowardice I accused her of isn't the same as craven cowardice. Fighting an obvious enemy didn't prove-."

"Do you remember what you said to Katar Hol when he suggesting visiting her?"
Is that a trick question?



"Yes. I don't forget things. I said that I intended to avoid her because I didn't want her to decide to try and carry on fighting."
...Oh. That might well have been the worst possible thing you could have told, I bet.

"And thus implying that you thought she fought you not over a point of principle, but because she was a berserker who's only thought was to mindlessly throw herself against you. There wasn't anything worse you could have said. So rather than resolving your conflict, you managed to continue it. And that's why the Thanagarian government sent me. My superiors are worried about what you might tear down next."
Oh, just a little thing like racial tensions. Nothing important, surely... :rolleyes:

Well, talk about putting your foot in something nasty. Looks like OL will have some apologising to do to Shayera when next he's on Earth. Hopefully after studying Thanagarian customs so he doesn't do it again. I suspect any appearance he makes in Thanagarian space is now accompanied by cried of "Oh, gods, what now?" from the intelligence services. ...Then again, that seems to be common in any culture he's interacted with. :D
 
Now that Paul is claiming that humans are special when it comes to interbreeding I really really want him to run into the Kryptonian /Coluan hybrid Brainiac's Daughter, daughter of Brainiac 5 and Supergirl, or Lobo's half Durlan son Thrust.

But hey I'm weird. I bet nobody else was disappointed when Zoat didn't give Mal Gabriel's Horn during the Angel war storyline
 
"It's practically required. And that's more or les how it happens: arcane inertia. The magic systems of Earth that all presently existing humans carry within them know as a result of millions of generations that male and female humanoids having sex that it produces babies. Mere biology stands no chance against that sort of magic."
Today on things Paragon utterly despises because they spit in the face of how he thinks the universe should operate.

"None of what you're saying makes me think I was wrong
No, but it does make you look like an idiot given you could have looked up the cultural information in like twenty seconds.

And thus implying that you thought she fought you not over a point of principle, but because she was a berserker who's only thought was to mindlessly throw herself against you. There wasn't anything worse you could have said. So rather than resolving your conflict, you managed to continue it. And that's why the Thanagarian government sent me. My superiors are worried about what you might tear down next."
And rightly so given he was working on a revolution.
 
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Probably not captured from a contemporary source, though I don't doubt they had some manner of visual recording at that point. I just doubt they would have been concerned with posing for art that might get made someday

I think they actually would pose a bitm

Though I'm sure the fellow (or lady, it doesn't mention) is depicted with suitably heroic physique...

That may not really be an exaggeration on the part if the painter.

Given Thanagarians have a martial culture, it's highly likely that the individual in the painting was very, tall and muscular when he was alive.

Let's not forget the fact DC Earth is soaked in the White Light Entity's essence. :confused: ...Er, I could have put that better

They're practically swimming in its white...ehh...

compatible with damn near anything with a suitable body shape.... And more than a few things that aren't...

Like the Spider Princess.

I'm sure he's at least cognizant of the concept... I hope

I dint think he is.

Surprised he doesn't have a cybernetic replacement. Or maybe he does, and just wears the eyepatch for looks because it isn't bothered by a little scrap of cloth

That could be a way to misdirect people by making them think he doesn't have anything there.

Or it may be something like a Martok situation and he just doesn't want a replacement.

Ah, the Justice League's Hawkwoman. On the other hand, has he been around anyone aware of the fight long enough to have been told whatever he did wrong

Not really.

Aside from a lecture he gave about Thanagar he hasn't been around the Hawks.

Oh, gods, what now?" from the intelligence services. ...Then again, that seems to be common in any culture he's interacted with.

Pretty much.
 
And while Paragon can be blamed for continuing the conflict, in this case it does take both sides to perpetuate it, when Hawkwoman should know that Paragon doesn't have the same appreciation or understanding of her warrior code or whatever, so assigning blame solely to him isn't something I'd agree with.
Quoted for emphasis. I mean, she's been on Earth how long at this point? She should know that things work differently. Of course, being raised from birth to think that way, it may be instinctive.

It's interesting to see he messed up so bad because he couldn't fathom the stupidity.

Honor is really such a stupid concept.
Honour in general is not stupid (unless you're using a much narrower definition of the word than I am), but many specific codes of honour are, or seem stupid if you don't have some critical information. 'Honour' from people/cultures who are obsessed with their concept of it often is pretty ridiculous, though (as in this case). In part, this is because if your honour-concept includes 'this just is, you shouldn't question it' and you hold to that for a few generations, its going to drift anyway, and can drift into some pretty unfortunate and objectively-suboptimal (stupid) directions.
 
"And why did the Thanagarian government dispatch you?"

"Given your interactions with us to date, we felt it best that we ensure there aren't any more 'Hawkwoman' incidents."

"Hawkwoman incidents?"

His one remaining eye stares at me for several moments.

"You aren't aware, are you."

"Ah. I called her a coward, she challenged me to a duel, she lost, we're trying to avoid each other? Aside from the visit here, anyway."

"You're not. Obviously human duelling traditions are different, but I'm a little surprised that no one has said anything to you."

"About what?"

He walks a little closer and drapes his arms over the gallery railings.

"About the extent of your insult to her."

"Well, yes, martial culture, obviously she wouldn't take being called a coward well. I don't take my friends being enslaved well."

"No, not that. Your conduct in the duel, and afterwards."

I frown. "Was I supposed to kill her or something?"

"Or something." He straightens up. "You apparently don't understand why she was duelling you. It wasn't because she wanted to force you to take your accusation back; it was to disprove it, both to you and to her. You're an Illustres; she didn't think she could beat you in a fight. She wanted to prove that she was prepared to face an unbeatable foe without flinching. And what did you do?"

He gestures towards me with arms and wings.

"Rather than presenting an unbeatable foe, you used the minimum amount of force possible in an attempt to spare her injury. You treated her like an adolescent sparring with a tutor. You put her on the ground without injuring her, repeatedly, and only started injuring her when the referee told you it was required, all the time asking him to call off the fight. Implying that you found her attempts to prove herself irrelevant. And then you tried to surrender as if she was an irrational child acting out, not a warrior on the verge of reclaiming her pride."

"None of what you're saying makes me think I was wrong."

He looks away. "Of course it doesn't." He shakes his head before returning his attention to me. "And then the ultimate insult. Among thanagarians, in a fight like that the two parties would meet afterwards. She would acknowledge that you were right about her previous behaviour, and you would acknowledge that she had overcome that weakness."

"The moral cowardice I accused her of isn't the same as craven cowardice. Fighting an obvious enemy didn't prove-."

"Do you remember what you said to Katar Hol when he suggested visiting her?"



"Yes. I don't forget things. I said that I intended to avoid her because I didn't want her to decide to try and carry on fighting."

"And thus implying that you thought she fought you not over a point of principle, but because she was a berserker who's only thought was to mindlessly throw herself against you. There wasn't anything worse you could have said. So rather than resolving your conflict, you managed to continue it. And that's why the Thanagarian government sent me. My superiors are worried about what you might tear down next."

Does anyone have a direct link to this encounter and the follow up with Katar Hol (if that's a separate chapter)? I vaguely remember it, but wouldn't mind rereading it to get myself up to date.
 
On the one hand, it is reasonable to say that Paul put no thought or effort into accommodating her cultural expectations.
On the other hand, she didn't put any thought or effort into his.

Her feeling insulted is her problem. Her culture having exacting and non-obvious expectations is her problem. Paul is under no obligation to bend over backwards for someone he regards, at best, as a very distant acquaintance.

That said while the specific incident is too irrelevant to bother resolving it is certainly wise of the thanagarians to send a diplomat. As a warning signal and buffer zone if nothing else.
 
On the one hand, it is reasonable to say that Paul put no thought or effort into accommodating her cultural expectations.
On the other hand, she didn't put any thought or effort into his.

Her feeling insulted is her problem. Her culture having exacting and non-obvious expectations is her problem. Paul is under no obligation to bend over backwards for someone he regards, at best, as a very distant acquaintance.

That said while the specific incident is too irrelevant to bother resolving it is certainly wise of the thanagarians to send a diplomat. As a warning signal and buffer zone if nothing else.
I agree. My only response to this clown-show is 'boo hoo.'
 
"How do you know that? Because if you're working up to telling me that Princess really is your daughter, this is a really roundabout way of doing it."

"While it's not impossible that the Queen got hold of a sample of my DNA and used that… Somehow, the Queen isn't humanoid, and isn't physiologically… Even if I'd gotten right up to the base-"

I make a grasping motion with both arms.

"-of her third leg, it wouldn't-."

i love that this bit came back. Paul sounds so flustered here, this has become his own personal noodle incident. I hope we get to see Princess again one day, if not for the fact everyone would heckle him about father-daughter bonding time.
 
Any code of honor that relies on an outside party behaving in a specific way to satisfy said honor is pretty dumb. Even the fact that they would consider a comment from a "barbarian" (not of their culture) to be a serious insult worth satisfying seems a bit absurd to me. Most would just recognize it as an outsider with no idea what he is saying.

Not to mention codes of honor in reality were never as severe and often romanticized after the period. And seems very inconvenient to allow in your intelligence operatives.
 
"No, not that. Your conduct in the duel, and afterwards."

I frown. "Was I supposed to kill her or something?"

"Or something." He straightens up. "You apparently don't understand why she was duelling you. It wasn't because she wanted to force you to take your accusation back; it was to disprove it, both to you and to her. You're an Illustres; she didn't think she could beat you in a fight. She wanted to prove that she was prepared to face an unbeatable foe without flinching. And what did you do?"

He gestures towards me with arms and wings.

"Rather than presenting an unbeatable foe, you used the minimum amount of force possible in an attempt to spare her injury. You treated her like an adolescent sparring with a tutor. You put her on the ground without injuring her, repeatedly, and only started injuring her when the referee told you it was required, all the time asking him to call off the fight. Implying that you found her attempts to prove herself irrelevant. And then you tried to surrender as if she was an irrational child acting out, not a warrior on the verge of reclaiming her pride."

"None of what you're saying makes me think I was wrong."

He looks away. "Of course it doesn't." He shakes his head before returning his attention to me. "And then the ultimate insult. Among thanagarians, in a fight like that the two parties would meet afterwards. She would acknowledge that you were right about her previous behaviour, and you would acknowledge that she had overcome that weakness."

"The moral cowardice I accused her of isn't the same as craven cowardice. Fighting an obvious enemy didn't prove-."

"Do you remember what you said to Katar Hol when he suggested visiting her?"



"Yes. I don't forget things. I said that I intended to avoid her because I didn't want her to decide to try and carry on fighting."

"And thus implying that you thought she fought you not over a point of principle, but because she was a berserker who's only thought was to mindlessly throw herself against you. There wasn't anything worse you could have said. So rather than resolving your conflict, you managed to continue it."No, not that. Your conduct in the duel, and afterwards."

I frown. "Was I supposed to kill her or something?"

"Or something." He straightens up. "You apparently don't understand why she was duelling you. It wasn't because she wanted to force you to take your accusation back; it was to disprove it, both to you and to her. You're an Illustres; she didn't think she could beat you in a fight. She wanted to prove that she was prepared to face an unbeatable foe without flinching. And what did you do?"

He gestures towards me with arms and wings.

"Rather than presenting an unbeatable foe, you used the minimum amount of force possible in an attempt to spare her injury. You treated her like an adolescent sparring with a tutor. You put her on the ground without injuring her, repeatedly, and only started injuring her when the referee told you it was required, all the time asking him to call off the fight. Implying that you found her attempts to prove herself irrelevant. And then you tried to surrender as if she was an irrational child acting out, not a warrior on the verge of reclaiming her pride."

"None of what you're saying makes me think I was wrong."

He looks away. "Of course it doesn't." He shakes his head before returning his attention to me. "And then the ultimate insult. Among thanagarians, in a fight like that the two parties would meet afterwards. She would acknowledge that you were right about her previous behaviour, and you would acknowledge that she had overcome that weakness."

"The moral cowardice I accused her of isn't the same as craven cowardice. Fighting an obvious enemy didn't prove-."

"Do you remember what you said to Katar Hol when he suggested visiting her?"



"Yes. I don't forget things. I said that I intended to avoid her because I didn't want her to decide to try and carry on fighting."

"And thus implying that you thought she fought you not over a point of principle, but because she was a berserker who's only thought was to mindlessly throw herself against you. There wasn't anything worse you could have said. So rather than resolving your conflict, you managed to continue it.
So a big part of the problem here is that they weren't following either European or Thanegarian duelling traditions.

Thanegarian ones apparently rely on a lot of unstated cultural context.
While European ones involve the Seconds of the aggrieved parties repeatedly meeting to try to negotiate the issue and make killing/(or in this context)beating the shit out of eachother unnecessary.

But a fair amount of the process of suppressing dueling by the governments of the countries it has taken place in(because laws weren't enough, they also had to destroy the custom) was coupled with propoganda painting the act as one of a failure in self-restraint and emotional maturity, which has stuck into the modern era.

edit: the point I'm getting at is that adhering to the specifics of one dueling tradition tends to incorporate mechanisms designed to avoid the thing failing to accomplish its intended purpose.
 
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I'm seeing it as more Her problem then Paul's.
He's the immovable object they need to work around that instead of having him bend to them.
Like a child/teenager I'd say "Use your words" .
I'd look up other instances of something like this happening as I doubt it's the first time something like this has happened.
 
I'm seeing it as more Her problem then Paul's.
He's the immovable object they need to work around that instead of having him bend to them.
Like a child/teenager I'd say "Use your words" .
I'd look up other instances of something like this happening as I doubt it's the first time something like this has happened.
It isn't. There's also the pointy stick launcher challenge with Artemis fairly early in the story, but in that Paul had the self-awareness and empathy to realize he'd been an ass and sought out reconciliation. Ever since he got self-awareness and empathy as superpowers, he seems to have lost the mundane capacity for both. For example, his dismissiveness of Jade's continued frustration with his working when they're supposed to be vacationing together.
 
Interesting viewpoint, and something that does remind us that the Hawks are Alien, and not just humans with feathers. Completely different view point, and no party assumed that it was required to explain it, as it was perfectly obvious to them, and clear as mud for anyone else.

I'm reminded of a talk in an old star wars novel on the subject of honor in a dueling crazed lost human colony world.

Still, Wedge was not entirely displeased with the way things were shaping up. His informal flying school at Giltella Air Base was actually proving to be a satisfying experience. Increasingly, pilots both from Cartann and foreign nations were discussing Wedge's philosophies as much as his tactics and skills, and doing so without contempt. One Cartann pilot, barely out of his teen years, a black-haired youth named Balass ke Rassa, finally summed it up in a way that pleased Wedge: "If I understand, General, you are saying that a pilot's honor is internal. Between him and his conscience. Not external, for his peers to see."

"That's right," Wedge said. "That's it exactly."

"But if you do not externalize it, you cut yourself off from your nation," Balass said. "When you do wrong, your peers cannot bring you back in line by stripping away your honor, allowing you to regain it when you resume proper behavior."

"True," Wedge said. "But by the same token, a group of people you respect, even though they don't deserve it, can't redefine honor for their own benefit, or to achieve some private agenda, and then use it to control your actions."

Troubled, the youth withdrew from the post-duel conversation and sat alone, considering Wedge's words, and Wedge felt that he had at last achieved a dueling victory.
 
It's interesting to see he messed up so bad because he couldn't fathom the stupidity.

Honor is really such a stupid concept.

And honestly, there is only so much stupidity one can tolerate.

Quoted for emphasis. I mean, she's been on Earth how long at this point? She should know that things work differently. Of course, being raised from birth to think that way, it may be instinctive.


Honour in general is not stupid (unless you're using a much narrower definition of the word than I am), but many specific codes of honour are, or seem stupid if you don't have some critical information. 'Honour' from people/cultures who are obsessed with their concept of it often is pretty ridiculous, though (as in this case). In part, this is because if your honour-concept includes 'this just is, you shouldn't question it' and you hold to that for a few generations, its going to drift anyway, and can drift into some pretty unfortunate and objectively-suboptimal (stupid) directions.

Any code of honor that relies on an outside party behaving in a specific way to satisfy said honor is pretty dumb. Even the fact that they would consider a comment from a "barbarian" (not of their culture) to be a serious insult worth satisfying seems a bit absurd to me. Most would just recognize it as an outsider with no idea what he is saying.

Not to mention codes of honor in reality were never as severe and often romanticized after the period. And seems very inconvenient to allow in your intelligence operatives.

Honor

The concept of honorable combat is pretty fishy when you look at it carefully. Your goal is to painfully kill another sapient being with a deadly weapon, and the other guy is attempting to do the same to you. Why then, would any rational person take time to consider the "honor" of whatever horribly painful and potentially lethal act they were intent upon inflicting on another?

The answer is: The Long Term. The concept of honor in War is incredibly ancient, and the ideas of what is and is not an honorable act have varied unrecognizably over that period. But one thing has remained the same throughout: the idea of what is honorable in warfare has always been inextricably linked to the needs of the powerful. In olden days, the powerful had superior nutrition, superior training, superior equipment and came in really small numbers. So naturally of course, the rule was that you didn't gang up on people or use poison. In modern days, bullets go through pretty much anything, but powerful people have more troops and helicopters, so the rule is that you don't assassinate people in honorable combat. The penalties for being dishonorable have remained pretty static over the generations -- you get kicked out of the rosters of the powerful and other power blocs attempt to band together to crush you.
 
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When a man and a woman-."

"Really?"

"It's practically required.

True. Like being asked "Why are we here?" You can't be asked that and not attempt to answer the greatest question in the universe! Even if you suspect the other person was asking that in a very small picture context.
 
Workhorse (part 18)
10th October 2012
06:21 GMT


Should I apologise, or not?

I don't know enough about-.

"Are you still-" Jade walks in, towelling her hair dry. "-wondering whether you should apologise or not?"

"Yes."

"Don't. She's spent more time living around humans than you have thanagarians. She has far more reason to know about human culture than you do to know thanagarian culture. And I'm sure that the League-"

She sits down on the bed, putting the towel down and picking up a brush.

"-spent more time talking about you than you did Thanagar."

"Probably true. But, Batman told me to fix my relationships with the League members. And I.. tend to feel that as a superhero I-. It's not about doing the least I could do, or what I'm expected to do."

"I know."

I look down at the duvet for a moment.

"I.. know. Everywhere we go, I try working. Um. I just-. It's a habit I've gotten into, and basically everywhere I've gone is a place where I've had work to do. I don't really… I don't really know other places."

"You like being a superhero."

"I like doing what I do. I like… Some kind of problem-of-the-week television series, you know? Go to somewhere strange and new, fix the underlying problems that they -for some reason- can't fix using my 'outsider powers'."

She gives me a small but curious frown.

"Is there really nothing else you do?"

I… Shrug, awkwardly. "I did… Design an entire edition of Warhammer Forty Thousand?"

"That's the.. wargame you and Zatanna cosplay, isn't it? With the-" She points her right forefinger at her dressing gown covered left breast. "-piercing."

"You'd have to point your hand in a lot more places than that. Yeah-yes, that's the one."

"Why?"

"Because I didn't like the rules as they were. It wasn't balanced, the costs didn't reflect the utility of different unit and weapon choices, they didn't even bother balancing things between Codices, which is the entire point of even having point values, Games Workshop uses effectiveness as a tool to get existing players to buy the new stuff, rather than properly balancing the game to encourage new players to take it up."

I slump a little.

"They've already started editing the perfectly balanced version I created. Did they simulate billions of games while temporarily a god? I don't think so."

Ah…

"How-? How about you? Your newfound love of ballroom dancing notwithstanding?"

"I… Usually spend the first part of any assignment learning about local culture. I go to their hangouts, shopping precincts, bars and clubs, museums and theatres, trying to get a feel for how they think."

"How their society works."

She nods. "When I was a Shadow, it was basic reconnaissance. Now, it's… More of a habit."

"Do you..? Like it?"

"I-"

"Strange, alien-."

"-don't-" She shakes her head. "-know. I wouldn't like not doing it, because it's part of the system-." She looks away for a moment, thinking about how to phrase it. "It's part of how I make sure that a place is safe. With aliens, I doubt I'm learning as much as my instincts tell me I am, but it… Works. I still can't pass as native, but I could pass as someone who's been in the area for a while. And sometimes I pick up information related to our job."

"But it's still work. Or work-adjacent."

"When I started with the Shadows, I used to pick up a small doll whenever I went somewhere. At one point I had a small collection. But then we had to get out of a safe house in a hurry and they all got left behind. I didn't bother getting any more after that. It wasn't really a lifestyle that lent itself to materialism. How about reading?"

"Reading? Oh. Ah, not really. I mean, I used to read science fiction and fantasy, and now…"

I shrug, and she nods.

"I read his-. No, I have my ring shove the contents of history books into my brain. That's not really the same."

"I read briefing documents. They've offered me cybernetic implants to do what your ring does, but that always sounds like a bad idea."

"If the Director's cleared them, then they're almost certainly safe for humanoids. But I can understand not wanting to alter your mind like that."

She nods. "Exactly."

"Again. I-."

"It's fine." She looks me directly in the eyes. "If anything, it makes it easier for me to see who's had their mind altered by the Reach and who hasn't. There's no amount of empathy that would stop me killing someone who's been twisted like that. They're not themselves any more."



"I am. I may be a little nicer, but I'm still me."

"Good show."

She thinks for a moment.

"So far this hasn't worked. We're doing different work, but that wasn't what we're trying to do."

"I'm open to ideas."

Jade puts down her brush.

"Teach me how to play Warhammer Forty Thousand."

I nod. "Which edit-?" I blink. "What?"

"It has different editions? How long as it been out for?"

My face involuntarily relaxes, my mouth falling slightly open.

"What? I don't have any better ideas. I'm interested in what a 'perfectly balanced' game looks like."

"Get thee behind me, foul temptress."

She crosses her arms, looking at me incredulously.

"Is this what gate keeping feels like? 'No girls allowed'?"

"Alright."

I stand up and take a display table that I haven't meticulously prepared to display the iconic elements of each faction along with a selection of properly scaled titans. I walk around behind it like a salesman displaying his wares as she gets up off the bed and walks over to look at the Black Templars.

"Space gothic knights?"

"Heh."

"What?"

"A bit of an old meme. If your girlfriend's standing on the other side of the table wearing a dressing gown but you noticed the miniatures first, you're in the right place."

"You're not wearing a shirt and I'm looking at the models."

I smile warmly.

"And I wouldn't have it any other way."
 
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