With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Darko · Mar 10, 2022

Michael Vonica said:
So, a creature that was born using a small portion of a being that Paul is, himself, only a very small portion of is enough of a basis for him to attempt to start a familial relationship, but Princess, who was created on the basis of the ideology and teachings that Paul made, and whose existence is a direct consequence of his actions, gets a stern warning and not even a second glance of consideration? Paul is very biased towards dangerous demons and against cute spiders.

Holy crap, you're right.

I think it's the same internal drive that sees him end up with dangerous criminals as love interests.

He is also a occasionally a douchebag and hypocrite.

Bud-E · Mar 10, 2022

I know Apollo and Zeus have a grudge against Paul but I can't see them doing this. I'm betting this evil god relates to Constantine in some way and now Paul has to track him down.
Also, why does Paul use female pronouns to refer to the Odphian has it said it prefers feminine over masculine?

Ngamer11 · Mar 10, 2022

Bud-E said:
I know Apollo and Zeus have a grudge against Paul but I can't see them doing this. I'm betting this evil god relates to Constantine in some way and now Paul has to track him down.
Also, why does Paul use female pronouns to refer to the Odphian has it said it prefers feminine over masculine?

He once noted that she feels feminine, or something to that effect.

Cuchulin · Mar 10, 2022

Darko said:
That sounds more like Nekton to be honest.
This could be his work.
Though Darkseid could be doing this as a sort of philosophical experiment.
He basically corrupted a person's desire for justice into a quest of senseless murder and destruction.
Maybe he wanted to see how even noble intentions could be corrupted and turned towards evil..

Seems more like Nekron to me as well. It just really doesn't seem like Darkseid's sort of thing.

Stsword · Mar 10, 2022

Bud-E said:
I know Apollo and Zeus have a grudge against Paul but I can't see them doing this. I'm betting this evil god relates to Constantine in some way and now Paul has to track him down.

A darkness that was only dispelled by the blue light of hope, that cared not for sin only obedience, with a vested interest in killing superheroes.

It really does seem to point to Nekron as Darko guessed above.

Vaermina · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"The Ophidian granted my mother a small portion of its power to quicken me, so I call it my father. And since you are the Ophidian made flesh, I may as well address you in that fashion."

Yea... Gonna be blunt here Zoat...

This is some bullshit level dues ex machine to make the Ophidian and your SI even more important.

Chojin Patriarch · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
21st October 2012
20:35 GMT

'Gaudy' is the word that comes to mind when I look Mammon's summoning chamber. The main body of the room is marble once again, only this time it's black with grey veins running through it. The actual summoning glyphs are poured gold which remains molten in the grooves carved for it in the floor in the centre of the room. Gold braziers burning with golden fire illuminate the room, and wards made of more gold cover the walls.

"I've been meaning to redecorate, but this has sentimental value."

Well, it certainly is thematically appropriate for a demon of Greed. No doubt the entire space is carefully engineered to drive home upon the summoned that they are entirely in their summoner's power, and their continued existence is dependant on their deference. Demons aren't exactly subtle, after all.

"Really?"

"No. Every atom of gold here is associated with a grave sin, making it a perfect conduit for my magic. And I really like gold." Mammon takes his place at the head of the room. "I delight in shallowness. Out there, I have to appear to have entirely converted to the creed of enlightened self-interest. In my private spaces I can go back to being my true self."

Heh. I have to wonder just how much he values anything he acquires, outside of the challenge of gaining it.

"A giant demonic magpie?"

"Crudely stated, but not untrue. Now we must simply wait for-."

To be fair, he might look nicer in black and white feathers than the bloated mass he affects. But, alas, image is everything, and demons are old-fashioned. That sort of corpulence screams 'wealthy' to the bronze-age logic many operate by.

A woman walks in unescorted, dressed in a kimono-inspired dress covered in a cloak made of the same cloth. Which knowing demonic aristocracy is probably something far fouler. Her skin is tan and her hair jet black and if I saw her on Themyscira I wouldn't look at most of her twice. The exception is the left side of her head, where a… Mask? Prosthetic? Cybernetic? An artificial eye, and the side of her jaw is… Rebuilt? Reinforced?

Ah. I see the lady's had some work done to rectify her physical issues. So I doubt we'll getting her original manner of speech. Thank goodness for that.

She stares at me with piercing intensity the moment she has line of sight, something in her cybernetic eye refocusing itself and flickering as it does… Something.

"My Lady Mazikeen. Thank you for joining us. I felt that given the nature of the artifice involved it would be appropriate for you to-."

A mere formality, I suppose, given he more or less installed her in her current position. I'll bet that eye has all manner of arcane sensors in it.

Her organic eye blinks at me. "Father."

Without turning his head, Mammon eyes me for a second and them takes a step away.

...Oh, that's going to make things awkward all round.

"Um. I'm.. reasonably confident that I'm not-."

"You call it the Ophidian, a great elemental being so bound into you that I cannot tell where it begins and you end. You may as well be its human face."

...Well, her 'father' is listed as the serpent-demon 'Ophur'. I could see it.

"I've… Always perceived the Ophidians presence as feminine. Thought since she-. It's not biological, that's an honourific."

"The Ophidian granted my mother a small portion of its power to quicken me, so I call it my father. And since you are the Ophidian made flesh, I may as well address you in that fashion."

Well, can't assail that logic.

"Ah… I'm going to need a little while to explain that logic to my girlfriend. And I suppose that I'm going to need to know when your birthday is. Um."

I approach her and slightly awkwardly open my arms for a hug, waiting for some sort of indication that she's actually interested in-.

She could have just been being formal about things. Image is everything, after all.

"You offer your affection freely?"

"Familial relationships are reciprocal. I offer to start such a relationship freely." I shrug. "I can't deny that I sometimes forget that the Ophidian and I are separate beings, and I accept that for better or worse. And if you're on board with Mammon's plans then you can't be all that bad."

To be fair, demonic relationships are hardly ever founded on such pleasant ideas as love or affection.

She looks up at Mammon. "I believe that we can rule out him being the Morningstar. Though he does sound like someone the Morningstar may have left in my path."

"So is..? Is that a 'no' on the hug..?"

Heh. Leaving him hanging like that. You truly are evil.

Ignoring me, she walks around the ritual space until she's standing on the opposite side of the summoning pit. I lower my arms, shrugging. I've got no idea how old she is but she's clearly an adult. I'll ask Angelica about her background later.

Lady Mazikeen's eye shifts again as she reviews the summoning grid.

Now that the tomfoolery is out of the way, back to business.

"Accurate. And since The Odium has accepted my suzerainty we won't need to trouble ourselves with true names. By the power of Hell: guns, appear."

For a fraction of a second I see a.. forge? A gun smithy? And some people in classical evil cultist gear. Honestly, I was half-expecting to see John Constantine, but I suppose that the twenties were a bit before his time. And Johanna Constantine was too far back for that style of gun.

Honestly, I can't imagine the generations between those two being any less trouble-prone.

And then there's a sort of spark and the guns I remember all too well appear in the centre of the ritual space, about two metres off the ground. The… Flecks of blood and brain that ended up on them after Ms. Carlyle turned them on herself are still visible on the barrel.

"Mistress?"

Hmm. A physical manifestation, or merely the spirits within being drawn here? If it's the former, then Crimson Avenger just got disarmed. So, bonus!

"Guns." Mammon leans on his podium, as if attending to a tiresome duty. "Explain to me what you were doing with that Jill Carlyle human."

"Nothing, lord."

I am so imagining their voices as tiny imps, with the faint sounds of firing mechanisms behind them... But 'nothing'? That was a hell of a lot of 'nothing' back there!

"It sounds like someone wants to do this the easy way."

Lady Mazikeen's eye clicks and strobes as I connect to the Ophidian, though her posture remains unaltered.

Probably professional curiosity as to how easily he reached out for Best Snek.

"Nothing! We delight in spurring mortals to murder, but in her there is a great pit. She could not hear us at all! Our voices went… Somewhere, somewhere cold and pressing. And a dull echo came back. Until the blue light blinded and burned it, we could not speak to her at all!"

"Lady and gentleman? Is that claim credib-?"

...Ominous. And there's the 'little bit of black' the title refers to.

The glyphs below the guns glow blue and their firing pins glow red with heat! The blood encrusting it blackens and burns, foul smoke rising off them.

"Mistress!"

They are demons, after all. Lying is woven into their being.

"Do not think to sneak a lie past my eyes by concealing it within truth. Answer honestly and in full."

"We could speak to her at the beginning! She fought us! Then the darkness came!"

...Oh, that sounds very bad. Dark Druid, or some other follower of the Black, I wonder?

The firing pin dims slightly.

"Who put the darkness in her?"

They earned a little relief with that...

"Mistress, we were not made with eyes! We can see only dimly!"

"What did you see, then?"

Which explains why they use the human host: not only hands to fire, but eyes to aim.

"A god! Cold, forceful! Alpha-Predator! Rock of unyielding will!"

That narrows it down nicely. An evil, strong-willed god. But it does let us know that neither Jill Carlyle or… The demons, were responsible for all of the deaths.

And 'God' could be a gross misrepresentation of what they actually saw. An Elemental of the Spectrum can feel a lot like a God to the inexperienced.

Mammon frowns. "What about the other sinners?"

"It cared not for sin, and so there was none. It cared only for obedience, and so obedience is all there was!"

...Which raises the question of 'where did the souls go, if not to Hell?' To Heaven? Or stolen away to somewhere else?

Mammon nods. "Illustres, is that at all helpful?"

"It clears a few things up. And gives the investigation a new direction. Thank you, thank you both."

At least he can consider the threat of the Crimson Avenger ended? But the question is now 'Who did this and why?'

"Do you want the guns?"

"Not particularly. Do you?"

Uh, OL... I rather think the League would want the Guns out of circulation. You know, in the name of public safety?

Mammon considers the idea.

"You suggested that I consider sponsoring a vigilante. Having seen what can be achieved by someone acting contrary to Hell's interests, I think that I may just do that."

Oh, great. Well, hopefully whoever or whatever he sets up can be directed against those properly deserving of it...

"Anyone I know?"

"Oh, no, Lantern." He shakes his head. "That'll be my little Secret."

"You do realise I can hear the capital letter there?"

"Ahhh..."

Heh. A Secret, eh? Well, it would be good to see her get a better end than she got in canon. Still, I fear for her being in a Demon Lord's service. As for the Guns... While I'd hope that OL would see them properly secured, they're not likely to be allowed out of Hell anytime soon, given their misuse. Hopefully we see the fate of Jill Carlyle, though, since she's basically been disarmed and should be easy to find now.

Without turning his head, Mammon eyes me for a second and them takes a step away.

Without turning his head, Mammon eyes me for a second and then takes a step away.

Ngamer11 · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
But it does let us know that neither Jill Carlyle or… The demons, were responsible for all of the deaths.

Just noticed. That should say 'nor'.

Darko · Mar 10, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well, her 'father' is listed as the serpent-demon 'Ophur'. I could see it.

Oh, okay, I thought it was that angel architect.

Chojin Patriarch said:
To be fair, demonic relationships are hardly ever founded on such pleasant ideas as love or affection.

Yeah, and Maze's family is just one gigantic pile of issues and manipulation.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Heh. Leaving him hanging like that. You truly are evil.

He's a deadbeat.

He deserves it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, that sounds very bad. Dark Druid, or some other follower of the Black, I wonder?

I think Druid is still imprisoned in the Tower of Fate.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And 'God' could be a gross misrepresentation of what they actually saw. An Elemental of the Spectrum can feel a lot like a God to the inexperienced.

I think that demons would have more experience with gods.

Then again, it's possible these ones don't.

And if it's Darkseidz then it is a god.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Heh. A Secret, eh? Well, it would be good to see her get a better end than she got in canon

I don't think this will be a better end.

In canon she could potentially ascend to Heaven.

Here, she's going yo serve a demon and potentially interact with her brother.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Hopefully we see the fate of Jill Carlyle, though, since she's basically been disarmed and should be easy to find now.

Unless the thing manipulating her made sure she didn't come back.

iamnuff · Mar 10, 2022

Anti-life guns. Nice.

Nugar · Mar 10, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
How many people are going to call Paul their dad? First it was that Spider Guilder princess, now a high ranking demon who was also Lucifer's follower/lover.

Nickel, two nickels, et cetera.

Old Knife · Mar 10, 2022

If mammon is sponsoring the Secret. Does he evolve into The Inside Trader?

Senevri · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
She looks up at Mammon. "I believe that we can rule out him being the Morningstar. Though he does sound like someone the Morningstar may have left

Well, I could see the TV show Lucifer doing something like that.

The comic book version is way colder and less humorous.

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2022

Darko said:
'I look at'

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Without turning his head, Mammon eyes me for a second and then takes a step away.

Ngamer11 said:
Just noticed. That should say 'nor'.

Thank you, corrected.

Old Knife said:
If mammon is sponsoring the Secret. Does he evolve into The Inside Trader?

He's involved in all kinds of financial corruption, but I don't recognise those capitals?

Handlewithcare · Mar 10, 2022

Michael Vonica said:
So, a creature that was born using a small portion of a being that Paul is, himself, only a very small portion of is enough of a basis for him to attempt to start a familial relationship, but Princess, who was created on the basis of the ideology and teachings that Paul made, and whose existence is a direct consequence of his actions, gets a stern warning and not even a second glance of consideration? Paul is very biased towards dangerous demons and against cute spiders.

Princess tried openly to manipulate him. She also has far less of a claim than Mazikeen.

Also also, you people are overlooking the most impirtant part. If Mazikeen accepts him...THEN THE MORNINGSTAR IS ESSENTIALLY HIS SON IN LAW!!!

RichardWhereat · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
An evil, strong-willed god.

Rules out Ares.

Darko said:
Lucifer bring a manipulative and self centered egomaniac etc.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Darko · Mar 10, 2022

RichardWhereat said:
You say that like it's a bad thing

Well it's certainly not good for a romantic or familial relationship

RichardWhereat · Mar 10, 2022

Darko said:
Well it's certainly not good for a romantic or familial relationship

Not for a human one, but she was one of the Lilim, and he was an Archangel. They were honest with each other, knew where each other stood, and respected each others boundaries.

NightmareWarden · Mar 10, 2022

iamnuff said:
Anti-life guns. Nice.

Indeed. Nekron, who used Anti-Life during the Angelic Hunt for Orange Lantern, and Darkseid are the obvious choices… but I don't think they are responsible. I suspect Jean Loring (Eclipso) and/or the Spectre are tied into this. Young Justice tinkered with the ages and backstories of many DC characters, so why not Jean Loring?

In the Blackest Night storyline

Atrocitus longed for the power of the Spectre (who is the Spirit of Vengeance for those unaware). We have seen that Dream exists as a mythological figure in Mr Zoat's Mars, so why couldn't Atrocitus and his Inversions learn of the Spectre? So my theory is that Atrocitus is preparing and testing for a large move against the Guardians of the Universe/Galaxy, with his anti-lantern force. Possibly using a fragment of the Anti-Life which Darkseid has not discovered in order to channel some of the Spectre's power, just as these guns saw some of it inside the deceased Crimson Avenger.

Hell's Razer · Mar 10, 2022

A possible issue Mr Zoat :

Mr Zoat said:
A woman walks in unescorted, dressed in a kimono-inspired dress covered in a cloak made of the same cloth. Which knowing demonic aristocracy is probably something far fouler.

Given there is no actual description or reference of said cloth in the earlier parts of the sentence the marked part feels somewhat awkward especially given the comment right after about how the clothing most probably isn't made of it.

Ngamer11 · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat, would Mammon be amenable to Secret being made a member of the Team? I ask because I can just imagine the little girl who hasn't had any support from anyone since being murdered by her brother easily falling for Paul. And then we can see everyone realizing that yet another girl with personal demons is falling for him and Zatanna and Kara Zor-El deciding to make sure that what happened to them doesn't happen again, because they know Paul won't do anything to stop it from happening again.

Rafin · Mar 10, 2022

Darko said:
Holy crap, you're right.

I think it's the same internal drive that sees him end up with dangerous criminals as love interests.

He is also a occasionally a douchebag and hypocrite.

Paul has subconscious views that are fixated on traditionalist biology. The Ophidian "seeded" Mazikeen and he is okay with identifying as (part of) the Ophidian. The technically biological or biological-adjacent connection is enough for him to count as "valid".

The spider on the other hand first worried him that his fatherhood was enforced without his consent (through DNA theft) and when he learned that that's not true it allowed him to fully reject the fatherhood he momentarily feared and thus had an aversion to.

In theory his enlightenment should probably make him aware of this. In practice this character is a self-insert and the author can only manage modeling an enlightened version of himself to a point, due to being human and such.

Ngamer11 · Mar 10, 2022

Rafin said:
Paul has subconscious views that are fixated on traditionalist biology. The Ophidian "seeded" Mazikeen and he is okay with identifying as (part of) the Ophidian. The technically biological or biological-adjacent connection is enough for him to count as "valid".

The spider on the other hand first worried him that his fatherhood was enforced without his consent (through DNA theft) and when he learned that that's not true it allowed him to fully reject the fatherhood he momentarily feared and thus had an aversion to.

In theory his enlightenment should probably make him aware of this. In practice this character is a self-insert and the author can only manage modeling an enlightened version of himself to a point, due to being human and such.

I think it's more like he was ticked off that some alien kid was calling him daddy in a blatant attempt to manipulate him into giving her what she wants. At some level he might respect it, but that isn't what he wants, so he told her to knock it off.

Silveraith · Mar 10, 2022

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Mammon_(New_Earth)

Here is a picture of Mammon for anyone who forgot what he looks like. Got me curious when he had to move his girth.

Darko · Mar 10, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
Mr Zoat, would Mammon be amenable to Secret being made a member of the Team? I ask because I can just imagine the little girl who hasn't had any support from anyone since being murdered by her brother easily falling for Paul. And then we can see everyone realizing that yet another girl with personal demons is falling for him and Zatanna and Kara Zor-El deciding to make sure that what happened to them doesn't happen again, because they know Paul won't do anything to stop it from happening again.

This...this honestly feels like it could happen in the story.

Everything before this supports this most likely happening.

Rafin said:
Paul has subconscious views that are fixated on traditionalist biology. The Ophidian "seeded" Mazikeen and he is okay with identifying as (part of) the Ophidian. The technically biological or biological-adjacent connection is enough for him to count as "valid".

The spider on the other hand first worried him that his fatherhood was enforced without his consent (through DNA theft) and when he learned that that's not true it allowed him to fully reject the fatherhood he momentarily feared and thus had an aversion to.

In theory his enlightenment should probably make him aware of this. In practice this character is a self-insert and the author can only manage modeling an enlightened version of himself to a point, due to being human and such.

Ngamer11 said:
I think it's more like he was ticked off that some alien kid was calling him daddy in a blatant attempt to manipulate him into giving her what she wants. At some level he might respect it, but that isn't what he wants, so he told her to knock it off.

It could be a bit of both.

Doccer · Mar 10, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Which explains why they use the human host: not only hands to fire, but eyes to aim.

But she was blindfolded though?

Or was it thin enough to see thru the weave?

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2022

Hell's Razer said:
A possible issue Mr Zoat :

Given there is no actual description or reference of said cloth in the earlier parts of the sentence the marked part feels somewhat awkward especially given the comment right after about how the clothing most probably isn't made of it.

No, that's fine as-is. He's thinking that the cloth probably isn't cloth.

Ngamer11 said:
Mr Zoat, would Mammon be amenable to Secret being made a member of the Team? I ask because I can just imagine the little girl who hasn't had any support from anyone since being murdered by her brother easily falling for Paul. And then we can see everyone realizing that yet another girl with personal demons is falling for him and Zatanna and Kara Zor-El deciding to make sure that what happened to them doesn't happen again, because they know Paul won't do anything to stop it from happening again.

Mammon isn't completely sold on the idea. He's more of an asset stripper than an investor. He's going to have Secret on a short leash doing minor things until he's confident in the business plan.

Michael Vonica · Mar 10, 2022

Ngamer11 said:
I think it's more like he was ticked off that some alien kid was calling him daddy in a blatant attempt to manipulate him into giving her what she wants. At some level he might respect it, but that isn't what he wants, so he told her to knock it off.

I agree with this. And I'm fairly sure that the demon lady that Paul just encountered has no interest at all in considering Paul to be in any sort of fatherly position for her. Judging by her comment about him not being the Morningstar, it seemed like more of a test of character. So again, Paul was being manipulated by a sort of not really daughter. But Paul was completely fine with it this time. And I don't think it has anything to do with any sort of preference for biological inheritance. I think i he just likes this demon lady more than Princess. Whether it be the likely substantial power this lady already wields, or her demonic nature, I'm not sure. Or it could have just been a joke.

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2022

Michael Vonica said:
I agree with this. And I'm fairly sure that the demon lady that Paul just encountered has no interest at all in considering Paul to be in any sort of fatherly position for her. Judging by her comment about him not being the Morningstar, it seemed like more of a test of character. So again, Paul was being manipulated by a sort of not really daughter. But Paul was completely fine with it this time. And I don't think it has anything to do with any sort of preference for biological inheritance. I think i he just likes this demon lady more than Princess. Whether it be the likely substantial power this lady already wields, or her demonic nature, I'm not sure. Or it could have just been a joke.

Adults are responsible for themselves. Children are the responsibility of their parents.

Michael Vonica · Mar 10, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Adults are responsible for themselves. Children are the responsibility of their parents.

Is the implication that Paul, when deciding on who he would and would not be willing to accept as a daughter, considers the amount of effort required? So Princess was off the table because she was a child, and Paul would have been required to actually invest himself in her care and upbringing? That's a pretty utilitarian way of deciding who and who not to enter into an unconditional relationship with. Or maybe you mean something else, and it just flew over my head. My point is not that Paul should or should not pursue a familial relationship with this or that character. I'm simply pointing out that Paul's own reasoning of taking responsibility for something that he only has the flimsiest of connections to is just false, and that the explanation is much more likely to be that Paul simply wants to be involved with this demon lady, more so than he wanted to be involved with Princess. Or he's just joking, I can't tell.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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