With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[DrThoth]

Does Renegade-Artemis not look older? Sure, New Gods tend not to age past their 'prime' but I'd have thought she'd looked to be mid-/late twenties rather than late teens; besides her hair color, I don't think any changes to her appearance have been mentioned.

The ongoing feud/tension between Robin and Renegade (even if the latter just finds it amusing) is interesting, but it's so sporadically present in the fic that the impact isn't as effective as it could be. There's also the fact that Robin hasn't changed his m.o. at all from what I can see, in terms of equipment, skills or personal empowerment, so it can often feel pathetic instead of actually amusing or compelling; Robin is surrounded by more of the consequences of Renegade's intervention and aid than Batman is (hence why I'm not as fussed about Batman apparently being the same), but he's apparently just doubled down on the status quo instead of seeking alternatives (as far as readers are aware).
I think after the third such major enterprise (after the dissolution of the Light 1.0 and the British coup), Batman and the League should be pushing a bit more for openness/full disclosure in their interactions with Renegade. Sure, they can't control or threaten him, but I think they should be trying something, when so far they do seem quite passive (and I don't think the choice first-person narrative precludes showing other people as proactive and planning things).

Thinking of ongoing plot points, are Savitar and Lady Eve going to be making any appearances, in either timeline? Kobra should still be running around, even if it's only the dregs of the organization.

Did the Paragon-Light not do anything to fight the Sheeda? Seems like something Truggs would have been interested in, at least.

 

[Darko]

Does Renegade-Artemis not look older? Sure, New Gods tend not to age past their 'prime' but I'd have thought she'd looked to be mid-/late twenties rather than late teens; besides her hair color, I don't think any changes to her appearance have been mentioned.

Click to shrink...

"Did you get taller?"

He's following me. Is that-? I… Kinda remember him… Being.. annoying? But I don't remember if he was trying to start something or just had bad people skills.

"And buffer? And what's with your hair?"

Click to shrink...

 

[Mr Zoat]

Ponies are not horses any more that cats are lions. Ponies are small and cute creatures that while able to hurt you, they cannot break your back.

Click to shrink...

 

[Pez]

FTFY

Oh, you're afraid of horses? Here's a video of a pony destroying a bear. That will help you get over your fears.

Click to shrink...

Thinking of ongoing plot points

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For Paul, I believe Abra Kadabra mentioned something about how Orange Lanterns were the bad guys in his war of the rings, or something. I don't know if he asked about "Blackest Night", or something else. I'm not really looking forward to that, if some Orange vs Other Corps actually happens.

I don't really see how that would happen. The Guardians aren't enemies of the OLC, even if they are wary. If anything, now that there's another big corps out there, they won't be able to hide all their shit from the universe any longer.

Pauls friends with some ranking Greenies, is like family to the only Blue, and the Indigo are kind of in his debt (even if nothing comes from that). I don't know the state of the Sapphires in Paul's universe.

And what happened to the Sapphire in Renegades? We haven't really seen her since he gained a yellow ring. I remember him trying her ring, which kinda worked, and that was it.

Honestly, I want to see Renegade wielding even more rings. Hell, give him a jail broken green one. He deserves it.

 

[Darko]

FTFY




For Paul, I believe Abra Kadabra mentioned something about how Orange Lanterns were the bad guys in his war of the rings, or something. I don't know if he asked about "Blackest Night", or something else. I'm not really looking forward to that, if some Orange vs Other Corps actually happens.

I don't really see how that would happen. The Guardians aren't enemies of the OLC, even if they are wary. If anything, now that there's another big corps out there, they won't be able to hide all their shit from the universe any longer.

Pauls friends with some ranking Greenies, is like family to the only Blue, and the Indigo are kind of in his debt (even if nothing comes from that). I don't know the state of the Sapphires in Paul's universe.

And what happened to the Sapphire in Renegades? We haven't really seen her since he gained a yellow ring. I remember him trying her ring, which kinda worked, and that was it.

Honestly, I want to see Renegade wielding even more rings. Hell, give him a jail broken green one. He deserves it.

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The Sapphires in the paragon side are most likely making rings and Lanterns, or their equivalent chargers, for their own Corps now.

I remember Ghiata, the Star Sapphire, helping renegade conquer Vega, but not much else.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

Not unless the martial arts he's studied allow him to fight them without crippling them, and seeing the weird martial arts that exist there it is possible.

Also if he uses some schizo tech for his gloves or costume, then the brass knuckle damage may not happen.

Click to shrink...

Well, first off, everyone should be aware that YES, I am aware that the reason Batman doesn't leave brain damaged and dying mooks in his wake is due to comic book physics and writers not understanding the first thing about fighting.

Moving on.

First off, even in there was such a martial art (and there isn't) it wouldn't work with Batman being Batman. Because, ase stated many, many times, Batman has no superpowers. Such a thing would qualify as a superpower. Given that Batman would have to have either....

A complex control over Ki that would allow him to precisely control the kinetic impacts of his strikes.

Or.

Some sort of telekinetic power that would allow him to soften or harden his blows as he sees fight.

However, even that wouldn't be enough.

See, it's not usually the first impact that truly does that damage. Either rendering the victim unconscious or outright killing them.

First Impact, Batman's fist directly to their temple.

Wham! Head snaps back, brain lurching in it's suspension fluid before slamming into the back of the skull.

With the force of Batman's blow sending the mook's weight towards the ground, the second impact occurs. The mook's skull impacts with the solid concrete.

Wham! Skull cracks, the mook brain slams into front of the skull from the beginning of the first fall, before crashing into the back of the skull on the jarring second.

Multiple TBI in only one punch. From there, a host of medical problems.

Maybe he's seriously injured and requires help. Or maybe he's tough enough to get back up. What happens then? Well if Batman is still around, the Dark knight hits the brain injured man again. Maybe he goes to the body, but any sort of action that whips the head around is going to have an already injured brain bouncing around that skull. He hits him in the head again...shit gets real.

Or maybe Batman is gone. The poor concussed Fellow has a massive headache, but carries on the best he can. Problem is? He's got a major concussion, his balance is thrown off, and unless he's the type to head right to an ER, he risks even more injury or death just by moving around. He could fall, whack his head on his door, slip in the shower. Any number of things could lead to further TBI.

This is why concussions are no joke.

And that's if he doesn't work for a villain who will just kill him.

So, to prevent all of this, Batman has to have some sort of power that keeps Mook brains from bouncing around in mook skulls.

He does not have this.

On to Batman's gauntlets.

You mentioned shizo tech, but honestly? If anything Batman has tech in his gauntlets that allows him to hit harder. I highly doubt he has some sort of tech that can cushion a mook's brain. Because it doesn't really matter if HE hits softer. What matters is the mook brain rattling around inside of the skull.

Now, I mentioned brass knuckles simply because it's a punching device everyone knows. Funny enough, Brass knucks can be more dangerous to your own hand then to someone's skull (as most are improperly made paper-weights or "tacti-cool" toys). But say you have a real pair. Brass Knuckles are less about making you punch harder, then they are about doing MORE damage to facial tissue. A proper pair of brass knuckles will bust you right the fuck open.

Batman's gauntlets would be more like Sap gloves. The purpose of these gloves in combat is both offensive and defensive. Offensively, the weight of the metal powder adds mass and, by doing so, also adds kinetic energy to punches, back-hands, and other hand strikes. However, the primary aim of the gloves is to protect the user from injury. Normally, punches with an unprotected hand to an opponent's head/face will painfully injure the hand in the process, and strikes to the mouth can often result in severe lacerations and possible infection from the opponent's teeth. The layer of powdered metal serves to protect the hand against these injuries while being flexible enough to bend with the glove. With a properly executed strike, a person wearing weighted knuckle gloves can even break glass or concrete without pain or injury.

Now, as I stated before, Batman's gauntlets are almost certainly all about protecting his knuckles. Punching is terribly damaging to the hand. Put simply, after 20 years of grip fighting, my hands already hurt. Add in the fact that some form of serious arthritis (whose name I can't remember) runs in my family. Put this together, and my hands are kinda shot. I hit a heavy bag about 5 months ago for fun, and it sent shockwaves up my arm. The kind of pain that makes you go..

"Oh! Ohhhkay....fuck....I'm sorry, Oh please go away..."

That, I'm going to whimper over this pain.

So I don't do a lot of fist striking. Elbows, knees, Knife hands, headbutt, palm strike. Pretty much anything but a punch.

With that in mind. Batman has to be aware of how important it is to protect his hands. He does waaaay too many things that require precise finger control to risk fucking his hands up. So his gauntlets are weighted to help him deliver even harsher blows, while protecting his own hands from harm as best they can. (See any imagine of Batman nearly shattering his hand punching Superman)

I'll give an example.

Muhammad Ali was set to fight George Foreman in Africa to regain the title that had been stripped from him. One issue? Even with gloves Ali's knuckles were shot, and those close to him knew that he had not hit a heavy bag in at least a year. He couldn't, it hurt too much.

So, one day a reporter comes into Ali's camp (Forgive me, I can't remember his name, he's on a documentary I have. So if you really wanna know, give me some time) and sees Ali just whaling away on the heavy bag.

"What the hell are you doing?!" Because he knows about Ali's hands.

Well, Ali had been getting injections, a numbing agent into his knuckles. So he slams a big right cross into the bag, looks at the reporter and says.

"I'm gonna knock that sucker out."

And he did.

Why do I bring that up?

Becausing going into that fight, Ali was 32 years old and had gone through 44 professional fights. Only 44, and his hands were that bad, at that age. Mind you, he had lost 3 years of his prime due to his exile from boxing after refusing the draft. Even with that, his hands were still all jacked up.

Batman, I think we can say, has had more than 44 fights. Now, Batman does use other attacks certainly. I'm just pointing out the danger to his hands.

And finally, the thing that had brought out my comment in the first place, was "Why is Batman so feared?"

My answer, because he's beating the living hell out of low class criminals, many of whom would never be the same again even if they live, and word of that spreads fast on the street. That's what street rep is.

 

[Pinklestia]

Click to shrink...

No she did not.

She was just helping him with his back pain.

Also, little pony, not pony.

 

[DrThoth]

For Paul, I believe Abra Kadabra mentioned something about how Orange Lanterns were the bad guys in his war of the rings, or something. I don't know if he asked about "Blackest Night", or something else. I'm not really looking forward to that, if some Orange vs Other Corps actually happens.

I don't really see how that would happen. The Guardians aren't enemies of the OLC, even if they are wary. If anything, now that there's another big corps out there, they won't be able to hide all their shit from the universe any longer.

Click to shrink...

I could be wrong, but I believe Word of Zoat on Orangest Night is that it was a result of the Reach or someone encountering and setting off Larfleeze, so it shouldn't be happening anymore. Some version of regular Blackest Night still might.

 

[Lone Courier 6]

Well, first off, everyone should be aware that YES, I am aware that the reason Batman doesn't leave brain damaged and dying mooks in his wake is due to comic book physics and writers not understanding the first thing about fighting.

Moving on.

First off, even in there was such a martial art (and there isn't) it wouldn't work with Batman being Batman. Because, ase stated many, many times, Batman has no superpowers. Such a thing would qualify as a superpower. Given that Batman would have to have either....

A complex control over Ki that would allow him to precisely control the kinetic impacts of his strikes.

Or.

Some sort of telekinetic power that would allow him to soften or harden his blows as he sees fight.

However, even that wouldn't be enough.

See, it's not usually the first impact that truly does that damage. Either rendering the victim unconscious or outright killing them.

First Impact, Batman's fist directly to their temple.

Wham! Head snaps back, brain lurching in it's suspension fluid before slamming into the back of the skull.

With the force of Batman's blow sending the mook's weight towards the ground, the second impact occurs. The mook's skull impacts with the solid concrete.

Wham! Skull cracks, the mook brain slams into front of the skull from the beginning of the first fall, before crashing into the back of the skull on the jarring second.

Multiple TBI in only one punch. From there, a host of medical problems.

Maybe he's seriously injured and requires help. Or maybe he's tough enough to get back up. What happens then? Well if Batman is still around, the Dark knight hits the brain injured man again. Maybe he goes to the body, but any sort of action that whips the head around is going to have an already injured brain bouncing around that skull. He hits him in the head again...shit gets real.

Or maybe Batman is gone. The poor concussed Fellow has a massive headache, but carries on the best he can. Problem is? He's got a major concussion, his balance is thrown off, and unless he's the type to head right to an ER, he risks even more injury or death just by moving around. He could fall, whack his head on his door, slip in the shower. Any number of things could lead to further TBI.

This is why concussions are no joke.

And that's if he doesn't work for a villain who will just kill him.

So, to prevent all of this, Batman has to have some sort of power that keeps Mook brains from bouncing around in mook skulls.

He does not have this.

On to Batman's gauntlets.

You mentioned shizo tech, but honestly? If anything Batman has tech in his gauntlets that allows him to hit harder. I highly doubt he has some sort of tech that can cushion a mook's brain. Because it doesn't really matter if HE hits softer. What matters is the mook brain rattling around inside of the skull.

Now, I mentioned brass knuckles simply because it's a punching device everyone knows. Funny enough, Brass knucks can be more dangerous to your own hand then to someone's skull (as most are improperly made paper-weights or "tacti-cool" toys). But say you have a real pair. Brass Knuckles are less about making you punch harder, then they are about doing MORE damage to facial tissue. A proper pair of brass knuckles will bust you right the fuck open.

Batman's gauntlets would be more like Sap gloves. The purpose of these gloves in combat is both offensive and defensive. Offensively, the weight of the metal powder adds mass and, by doing so, also adds kinetic energy to punches, back-hands, and other hand strikes. However, the primary aim of the gloves is to protect the user from injury. Normally, punches with an unprotected hand to an opponent's head/face will painfully injure the hand in the process, and strikes to the mouth can often result in severe lacerations and possible infection from the opponent's teeth. The layer of powdered metal serves to protect the hand against these injuries while being flexible enough to bend with the glove. With a properly executed strike, a person wearing weighted knuckle gloves can even break glass or concrete without pain or injury.

Now, as I stated before, Batman's gauntlets are almost certainly all about protecting his knuckles. Punching is terribly damaging to the hand. Put simply, after 20 years of grip fighting, my hands already hurt. Add in the fact that some form of serious arthritis (whose name I can't remember) runs in my family. Put this together, and my hands are kinda shot. I hit a heavy bag about 5 months ago for fun, and it sent shockwaves up my arm. The kind of pain that makes you go..

"Oh! Ohhhkay....fuck....I'm sorry, Oh please go away..."

That, I'm going to whimper over this pain.

So I don't do a lot of fist striking. Elbows, knees, Knife hands, headbutt, palm strike. Pretty much anything but a punch.

With that in mind. Batman has to be aware of how important it is to protect his hands. He does waaaay too many things that require precise finger control to risk fucking his hands up. So his gauntlets are weighted to help him deliver even harsher blows, while protecting his own hands from harm as best they can. (See any imagine of Batman nearly shattering his hand punching Superman)

I'll give an example.

Muhammad Ali was set to fight George Foreman in Africa to regain the title that had been stripped from him. One issue? Even with gloves Ali's knuckles were shot, and those close to him knew that he had not hit a heavy bag in at least a year. He couldn't, it hurt too much.

So, one day a reporter comes into Ali's camp (Forgive me, I can't remember his name, he's on a documentary I have. So if you really wanna know, give me some time) and sees Ali just whaling away on the heavy bag.

"What the hell are you doing?!" Because he knows about Ali's hands.

Well, Ali had been getting injections, a numbing agent into his knuckles. So he slams a big right cross into the bag, looks at the reporter and says.

"I'm gonna knock that sucker out."

And he did.

Why do I bring that up?

Becausing going into that fight, Ali was 32 years old and had gone through 44 professional fights. Only 44, and his hands were that bad, at that age. Mind you, he had lost 3 years of his prime due to his exile from boxing after refusing the draft. Even with that, his hands were still all jacked up.

Batman, I think we can say, has had more than 44 fights. Now, Batman does use other attacks certainly. I'm just pointing out the danger to his hands.

And finally, the thing that had brought out my comment in the first place, was "Why is Batman so feared?"

My answer, because he's beating the living hell out of low class criminals, many of whom would never be the same again even if they live, and word of that spreads fast on the street. That's what street rep is.

Click to shrink...

We get it already, you hate Batman and the prolificness of the Badass Normal Trope.

 

[Maxx Crowley]

We get it already, you hate Batman and the prolificness of the Badass Normal Trope.

Click to shrink...

Cool. I'm glad.

Though the fact that nothing in my post had anything to do with my hatred of Batman, or the prolificness of the badass normal trope, you do leave me confused. What with the entire thing being about the fragility of one's hands, and the measures Batman is almost certainly taking to deal with that.

That and the sheer damage Batman would be doing on the mook bodies that he thrashes nightly, and how that would add to his fearsome legend.

But thanks?

 

[Vaermina]

Her power did that to the console, because it wouldn't obey her. That was Batman's fault for keeping her hostage. And of course she's frustrated. She hadn't used a console like that in decades, and everybody is pissing her off. The chapter starts with Robin starting shit.

True anxiety doesn't just go away. I know people who suffer from it. It's sudden, with little to no reason behind it, and passes. Depression is the same.

Artemis feels this way because something she's had in her life so long, something that's a part of her now, is missing. Even Renegade feels that way (though to a lesser extent), but nobody is claiming he's suffering from PTSD.

What nobody seems to understand is... she's been back only two days. She needs time! Hundreds of years (probably) versus two days.

Click to shrink...

Her power did that because she tried to use it to force the console to do what she wanted...

And Batman wasn't keeping her hostage... She just forgot how to use the console to authorize people...

As to us not talking about Renegade having PTSD, that's because he's pretty much a psychopath at this point.

 

[Mr Zoat]

3rd July 2012
10:03 GMT -5

I carry the tea through into the living room on a non-construct tray, and proffer it to Alan and Jay.

Jay smiles tiredly. "Thanks, kid."

I nod in acknowledgement, then put the tray down and take my own seat. Alan regards his friend sympathetically.

"So? How is he?"

"Not.. good." Jay looks into his cup for a moment, then puts it down on the coffee table. "He's.. not going to do anything crazy, but I think he needs some time away from work."

Alan nods. "That sounds like a good idea."

Both of them saw National S-. Nazi concentration camps while they were up and running, and Alan told me that he saw the Soviet version during the early stages of the Cold War. That's not an experience modern superheroes can really relate to. Even the few active in less 'photogenic' regimes usually only see a handful of bodies or torture victims at a time. I… Haven't seen anything on that scale on Earth.

China's camps aren't that wasteful.

"Paul..?" Jay turns to me. "Was there any… I don't know, any sign..?"

"At what point?" I shrug. "I was a little surprised that he wanted to take part in a mission like that, and he sounded… Angrier, than I've heard him before, but I don't actually know him that well. Killing Sheeda soldiers was what we went there for, so that wasn't a surprise." I sit back slightly. "I mean, beyond.. him volunteering in the first place."

"Your..?" Alan makes a circling motion with his right hand. "Empathic vision?"

"He was wearing a ward, and I've been trying to respect people's privacy. And… When he decided to kill the Sheeda…"

Jay nods. "He's a whole lot faster than me and Wally."

"I… Might have been able to do something, but there certainly wasn't anything reliable and safe that I could have done to restrain him. I mean, it's not as if I actually wanted to keep the Sheeda alive. Did..? He jump, or..?"

Alan shuffles a little awkwardly.

"He talked things through with Batman, and they decided he needed to take some time away from the League."

I nod. And they didn't announce it to the public. And they certainly didn't include that part in the report to the Security Council. 'Negotiations broke down' is what made it into the final text, and Guy and Jordan returned to Oa for 'consultations' once things settled down a bit. I'm not sure if they'll tell me the results. I won't hold it against them if they don't, just so long as the Green Lantern Corps doesn't expect me to involve myself further.

"Are you coming out of retirement, Jay?"

"Hah haha. No. No, I don't think so. Max is.. stepping up there. And between Snart getting rehabilitated and McCulloch staying out of the country… Was that something to do with you?"

"I made him aware of certain opportunities for well paying near-legitimate employment. I don't know if he'll stick at it."

"Well, the two of them were the most organised of the Central City Rogues. Without them, the others tend to stick to simple crimes."

"What about Wallace?"

Jay frowns faintly. "Why? Is he acting.. off, as well?"

"I haven't seen him." I shrug. "I haven't been to the Mountain. Just working and then going home."

Alan looks concerned. "Last time-."

"Diana's not going to have to order me to rest this time."

Diana was not happy about what Mr. Allen did. I.. sort of understood that hospitality rules were a big deal in Amazon culture, but I've never really encountered it as an issue. That might go some way to explain why she never complained about my contact with the Sivanas. As an invited guest, it didn't matter what they'd done, I was supposed to be polite to them. She… Understands that most people in the modern world don't feel the same way about it, but from the way she's been grinding her teeth I'm pretty sure that she doesn't grok it.

Kal-El wasn't happy about the League taking that sort of mission, but he didn't really appreciate why not killing them because another supervillain was protecting them was an extra problem. Not sure exactly how he wanted it handled, but I.. don't think that starting an argument about lethal force is a sensible thing to do in a situation where his ongoing presence is one of the things keeping the global panic level down.

"How about you?"

Alan and Jay glance at one another.

"A lot of people assume the worst of the war was the concentration camps. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I saw a whole lot more dead people killed by bombers or artillery than I saw starved or gassed. I guess a lot of men of our generation did. Honestly, I-. Well, I didn't go inside their Dreadnoughts and it-. I don't really want to try working out which was the most horrific like it's some kind of contest, but to my mind this isn't anything I haven't seen before."

Jay nods. "I can still remember talking to my father about the Great War, and him telling me about his father telling him about the Civil War. Honestly, America's been darn lucky in the last few decades."

Alan nods as he sips his tea.

"Doctor Sivana asked me a question when we took the last Dreadnought. He wanted to know what changes I thought would happen to human society now." I snort. "Any ideas?"

Alan looks mildly perturbed. "I'd usually tell you not to tell a man like Sivana anything at all. On the other hand, if he's serious about straightening out, maybe you should put your head together with Batman and try and come up with something."

"A lot more people have been buying guns."

"I don't think he was just talking about America."

Alan shakes his head. "No, it's not just America. It's happening in a lot of places."

"Marvellous." Both of them look-. "Oh, don't be so American. What exactly would small arms have done against the Sheeda? Or what would they do against any group capable of flying across interstellar space? If having a-"

My ring blinks.

"-mass civilian militia is our aim, we need to work on mass producing far better equipment than AK forty sevens. Excuse me."

I raise my left hand.

"Illustres here."

"My lord Illustres." Lantern Coutara's head manifests above my ring. "My daughter and I are here to relieve you."

Ah, good. Someone reliable. "Thank you. Earth could use the help. I'll put you in touch-." I look over to Alan. "Lantern Scott, would you mind serving as Lantern Coutara's point of contact with the League?"

"I think I can manage that."

"Are you with the fleet right now?"

"Yes. I also have a message for you from Clarissi Dox that must be relayed in person."

I nod, then look over to Jay.

"Do you want to take a look at an interstellar space ship?"

 

[Ardy]

Did..? He jump, or..?"

Click to shrink...

Did flash like, try to kill himself afterwards or something? I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Also, when did Blue Lantern officially join the league? I know he's unofficially helping out a ton, but if he's the contact between the league and a foreign lantern shouldn't that be a league member? Or am I overthinking this?

 

[DiceArt]

Did flash like, try to kill himself afterwards or something? I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Also, when did Blue Lantern officially join the league? I know he's unofficially helping out a ton, but if he's the contact between the league and a foreign lantern shouldn't that be a league member? Or am I overthinking this?

Click to shrink...

I think he might have been asking if Flash left the league, but I'm not certain, and I don't know if it was a Briticism or not.

 

[Darko]

was most horrific

Click to shrink...

maybe 'was more'

"My daughter and I are here to relieve you."

Click to shrink...

Phrasing!

 

[DrThoth]

Did flash like, try to kill himself afterwards or something? I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Also, when did Blue Lantern officially join the league? I know he's unofficially helping out a ton, but if he's the contact between the league and a foreign lantern shouldn't that be a league member? Or am I overthinking this?

Click to shrink...

I was confused by that phrasing too.

I dont remember what Alan's official status is but I think he might be a Leaguer. Could we get a current official list of the League and Team? I get mixed up between previous outdated and scrapped versions that never made it into the story.

I think the fallout of Flash's actions makes sense in terms of how characters are taking it. It'll probably be on the back burner this episode but I hope it's explored more, especially the cultural clash between Diana and Flash or other Leaguers.

He may refuse but Paragon or Alan could just de-age Jay and Joan if they wanted to, right? I mean I can see them saying no but I think they should be offered the option (my memory isn't the best, as I think is often evident, so maybe they did). It's definitely a complicated subject when your connections basically make death something you have to actually choose to an extent rather than passively accept, though there aren't enough older characters (who are fully mortal) in the story for that to have been discussed too much.

 

[Marix Reaver]

Did flash like, try to kill himself afterwards or something? I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Also, when did Blue Lantern officially join the league? I know he's unofficially helping out a ton, but if he's the contact between the league and a foreign lantern shouldn't that be a league member? Or am I overthinking this?

Click to shrink...

Probably meant "jump ship," which means to quit.

 

[Sceptic]

I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Click to shrink...

"Did he jump, or was he pushed?" Or in other words, did he choose to go (ie take some time off) voluntarily.

 

[FeepingCreature]

Did flash like, try to kill himself afterwards or something? I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Click to shrink...

This refers to Flash leaving the League. The full idiom is "did he jump, or was he pushed?"

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[Simonbob]

"Marvellous." Both of them look-. "Oh, don't be so American. What exactly would small arms have done against the Sheeda? Or what would they do against any group capable of flying across interstellar space? If having a-"

Click to shrink...

When it's all you can get, well, you take it.

Then you look for ways to get something better.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Did flash like, try to kill himself afterwards or something? I'm not sure what jump means here. It could mean go nuts, but it's awkwardly phrased.

Click to shrink...

Did he jump or was he pushed? Did he leave of his own free will, or was he kicked out?

Also, when did Blue Lantern officially join the league? I know he's unofficially helping out a ton, but if he's the contact between the league and a foreign lantern shouldn't that be a league member? Or am I overthinking this?

Click to shrink...

I think it was at New Year?

maybe 'was more'

Click to shrink...

Modified.

I was confused by that phrasing too.

I dont remember what Alan's official status is but I think he might be a Leaguer. Could we get a current official list of the League and Team? I get mixed up between previous outdated and scrapped versions that never made it into the story.

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Spoiler: League Membership

01 – Superman
02 – Batman
03 – Wonder Woman
04 – Flash (Barry Allen)
05 – Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
06 – Aquaman
07 – Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)
08 – Green Arrow
09 – Hawkman
10 – Hawkwoman
11 – Zatara
12 – Captain Atom (Major Nathaniel Adams)
13 – Black Canary
14 – Green Lantern (John Stewart)
15 – Captain Marvel (William Batson)
16 – Red Tornado (John Smith)
17 – Green Lantern (Guy Gardner)
18 - Icon (Augustus Freeman)
19 - Red Arrow (William Harper)
20 - Accomplished Perfect Physician (Yao Fei)
21 – Doctor Fate (Nabu) (John Quinn)
22 – Atom (Raymond Palmer)
23 – Plastic Man (Patrick O'Brian)
24 - Blue Lantern (Alan Scott)
25 - Doctor Mist (Nommo Balewa)
26 - Red Rocket (Dmitri Pushkin)
27 – Angelica (Angelica Blaze)

 

[Sockmonkey]

Though it's after the fact, the context helps see what was in Flash's head.
Most Central city rogues had a sort of code of conduct they stuck to, as opposed the kill-happy Gotham ones.
If he'd had to deal with Joker on a regular basis he might have been more prepared to handle that.
Then again, maybe not. He's generally written as a nice guy who does super-heroing to be nice.

 

[moralrelativity]

"Not the point, Kid."

Click to shrink...

Jay smiles tiredly. "Thanks, kid."

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Inconsistent capitalisation of kid/Kid. Personally I think Jay's right, unless "Kid" is a name or nickname.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

3rd July 2012
10:03 GMT -5

I carry the tea through into the living room on a non-construct tray, and proffer it to Alan and Jay.

Jay smiles tiredly. "Thanks, kid."

Click to shrink...

I bet the whole thing with Barry has been hard on him most of all, of the senior capes. Of the Society's survivors, only he and Alan have actual proteges, and Alan is back out there full time now anyway. What Barry did, even if it doesn't hit the population at large... That's going to have all the Justice League members thinking...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

I nod in acknowledgement, then put the tray down and take my own seat. Alan regards his friend sympathetically.

"So? How is he?"

"Not.. good." Jay looks into his cup for a moment, then puts it down on the coffee table. "He's.. not going to do anything crazy, but I think he needs some time away from work."

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And to be fair, that's probably the best option he could have chosen... Spending time with Iris, living a normal life without cape shenanigans, might get his head back on straight a bit.

Alan nods. "That sounds like a good idea."

Both of them saw National S-. Nazi concentration camps while they were up and running, and Alan told me that he saw the Soviet version during the early stages of the Cold War. That's not an experience modern superheroes can really relate to. Even the few active in less 'photogenic' regimes usually only see a handful of bodies or torture victims at a time. I… Haven't seen anything on that scale on Earth.

Click to shrink...

No conflict since the fifties has had that kind of outright sanctioned civilian carnage, has it? Vietnam got close with the destruction of villages, but those could always be blamed on 'Burn the village to save the village'-type warhawk commanders. Anything else falls more into 'Ethnic cleansing'... And some of the worst probably fall under or close to Rule 8.

China's camps aren't that wasteful.

"Paul..?" Jay turns to me. "Was there any… I don't know, any sign..?"

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Is he looking for an excuse? Some hint or sign that someone could have seen this coming? Because, well...

"At what point?" I shrug. "I was a little surprised that he wanted to take part in a mission like that, and he sounded… Angrier, than I've heard him before, but I don't actually know him that well. Killing Sheeda soldiers was what we went there for, so that wasn't a surprise." I sit back slightly. "I mean, beyond.. him volunteering in the first place."

"Your..?" Alan makes a circling motion with his right hand. "Empathic vision?"

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You never know what someone will do when pushed to that extent. I would not be surprised if he kept picturing Iris in the rendering devices, or Wally, or his friends...

"He was wearing a ward, and I've been trying to respect peoples' privacy. And… When he decided to kill the Sheeda…"

Jay nods. "He's a whole lot faster than me and Wally."

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Faster than thought, practically. Not nearly at the level of 90's/00's Wally West in his Justice League days, but still faster than even a Lantern...

"I… Might have been able to do something, but there certainly wasn't anything reliable and safe that I could have done to restrain him. I mean, it's not as if I actually wanted to keep the Sheeda alive. Did..? He jump, or..?"

Alan shuffles a little awkwardly.

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'..Or was he pushed?' is the Idiom OL is using here, used to refer to someone more or less taking the punishment for mistakes, by being the one fired or stood down. The difference is, jumping means they're the one to make that decision, being pushed is someone else made it for them...

"He talked things through with Batman, and they decided he needed to take some time away from the League."

I nod. And they didn't announce it to the public. And they certainly didn't include that part in the report to the Security Council. 'Negotiations broke down' is what made it into the final text, and Guy and Jordan returned to Oa for 'consultations' once things settled down a bit. I'm not sure if they'll tell me the results. I won't hold it against them if they don't, just so long as the Green Lantern Corps doesn't expect me to involve myself further.

Click to shrink...

So Flash will be taking a 'leave of absence for medical reasons', as Giovanni Zatara did while wearing the helmet. Leaving him the option of returning someday, once he feels he's made amends for what he did, if he feels he has to...

"Are you coming out of retirement, Jay?"

"Hah haha. No. No, I don't think so. Max is.. stepping up there. And between Snart getting rehabilitated and McCulloch staying out of the country… Was that something to do with you?"

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Well, Mirror Master does prefer a pay-check to a punch in the face. And OL's pocketbook is very, very large.

"I made him aware of certain opportunities for well paying near-legitimate employment. I don't know if he'll stick at it."

"Well, the two of them were the most organised of the Central City Rogues. Without them, the others tend to stick to simple crimes."

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Simple things like bank robberies with minimal violence. Stuff that they can get a way with cleanly in a few minutes.

"What about Wallace?"

Jay frowns faintly. "Why? Is he acting.. off, as well?"

Click to shrink...

..Where has Wally been? Dealing with Frances Kane (likely to become Magenta in this timeline, because she's still suffering in a coma and minor brain injuries) I suppose? Or... Did he suffer another personal tragedy? What about Dani and the Logans?

"I haven't seen him." I shrug. "I haven't been to the Mountain. Just working and then going home."

Alan looks concerned. "Last time-."

"Diana's not going to have to order me to rest this time."

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Mostly because she's more preoccupied with other things, or because he's pacing himself?

Diana was not happy about what Mr. Allen did. I.. sort of understood that hospitality rules were a big deal in Amazon culture, but I've never really encountered it as an issue. That might go some way to explain why she never complained about my contact with the Sivanas. As an invited guest, it didn't matter what they'd done, I was supposed to be polite to them. She… Understands that most people in the modern world don't feel the same way about it, but from the way she's been grinding her teeth I'm pretty sure that she doesn't grok it.

Click to shrink...

Xenia, the right of hospitality, is a nearly lost thing these days. And she would feel that violation more keenly. At least the Gods aren't blaming her for the breach of propriety. I hope?

Kal-El wasn't happy about the League taking that sort of mission, but he didn't really appreciate why not killing them because another supervillain was protecting them was an extra problem. Not sure exactly how he wanted it handled, but I.. don't think that starting an argument about lethal force is a sensible thing to do in a situation where his ongoing presence is one of the things keeping the global panic level down.

Click to shrink...

And really, do you want a Superman who's comfortable with killing? Not just wrecking powered armour, or punching super-strong foes till they stop resisting arrest, but outright killing? Because that's usually the sign of a bad timeline.

"How about you?"

Alan and Jay glance at one another.

Click to shrink...

They're two of the most likely people to have had previous experience of real war, after all. Not the Hollywood war, with blatantly heroic Americans shooting dastardly enemies with no blood... No, they'll have seen the worst of it...

"A lot of people assume the worst of the war was the concentration camps. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I saw a whole lot more dead people killed by bombers or artillery than I saw starved or gassed. I guess a lot of men of our generation did. Honestly, I-. Well, I didn't go inside their Dreadnoughts and it-. I don't really want to try working out which was most horrific like it's some kind of contest, but to my mind this isn't anything I haven't seen before."

Click to shrink...

It's just slightly less horrible because it wasn't people doing it to each other, but rather an alien invasion, a group that was truly an Other. But not by much...

Jay nods. "I can still remember talking to my father about the Great War, and him telling me about his father telling him about the Civil War. Honestly, America's been darn lucky in the last few decades."

Alan nods as he sips his tea.

Click to shrink...

Every generation has its 'big war'. But for more recent ones, they never impact us at home. It's always 'over there' somewhere... Vietnam was the last real 'at home' war, where people got affected by it via things like the Draft. The last quarter of the century, people have had it a lot luckier.

"Doctor Sivana asked me a question when we took the last Dreadnought. He wanted to know what changes I thought would happen to human society now." I snort. "Any ideas?"

Alan looks mildly perturbed. "I'd usually tell you not to tell a man like Sivana anything at all. On the other hand, if he's serious about straightening out, maybe you should put your head together with Batman and try and come up with something."

Click to shrink...

I doubt he was honestly looking for suggestions. It seemed more of a thought experiment, because he knows things aren't really going to change that much. Why would they, after all?

"A lot more people have been buying guns."

"I don't think he was just talking about America."

Alan shakes his head. "No, it's not just America. It's happening in a lot of places."

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At least in some countries, it's harder to get one. More time to cool off and consider it. Assuming you're acquiring it legally, but the other way has its own problems.

"Marvellous." Both of them look-. "Oh, don't be so American. What exactly would small arms have done against the Sheeda? Or what would they do against any group capable of flying across interstellar space? If having a-"

My ring blinks.

Click to shrink...

Oh, what now?

"-mass civilian militia is our aim, we need to work on mass producing far better equipment than AK forty sevens. Excuse me."

I raise my left hand.

Click to shrink...

Planning to make energy weapons more available to the common man? Maybe release models with a stun intensity as the default legal setting. And make trying to rig it for lethal force illegal outside of a general war footing.
Was it Schlock Mercenary that had trying to use manual controls for flying cars carry an 'attempted murder' charge, because of all the intended and required safety features, and how many you'd have to disable or bypass to gain manual control being tantamount to deciding 'yeah, I want to have a chance of killing someone'?

"Illustres here."

"My lord Illustres." Lantern Coutara's head manifests above my ring. "My daughter and I are here to relieve you."

Click to shrink...

My memory may be fuzzy, but I believe they are the recruits from the planet of the eye-removing priests? For context's sake. They're two of the sanest orange Lanterns.

Ah, good. Someone reliable. "Thank you. Earth could use the help. I'll put you in touch-." I look over to Alan. "Lantern Scott, would you mind serving as Lantern Coutara's point of contact with the League?"

"I think I can manage that."

Click to shrink...

Heh. Ever the gentleman, Alan.

"Are you with the fleet right now?"

"Yes. I also have a message for you from Clarissi Dox that must be relayed in person."

Click to shrink...

Oh, god, now what bug has Dox got up his ass this time? Is the conflict with the Reach finally going hot? ...Well, we know it is, of course. But that's probably what OL's wondering right now.

I nod, then look over to Jay.

"Do you want to take a look at an interstellar space ship?"

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Not a particularly pretty one, it is a warship, after all. They'd probably be reminded of military ships they'd worked off of during the War...

Some nice perspective on last episode's fallout. And the next big meta-plot begins to emerge. I fancy by the end of it, we'll miss these nice quiet moments on Earth...

 

[Darko]

My memory may be fuzzy, but I believe they are the recruits from the planet of the eye-removing priests? For context's sake. They're two of the sanest orange Lanterns.

Click to shrink...

Koriand'r is also very sane.

 

[DrThoth]

Spoiler: League Membership

01 – Superman
02 – Batman
03 – Wonder Woman
04 – Flash (Barry Allen)
05 – Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
06 – Aquaman
07 – Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)
08 – Green Arrow
09 – Hawkman
10 – Hawkwoman
11 – Zatara
12 – Captain Atom (Major Nathaniel Adams)
13 – Black Canary
14 – Green Lantern (John Stewart)
15 – Captain Marvel (William Batson)
16 – Red Tornado (John Smith)
17 – Green Lantern (Guy Gardner)
18 - Icon (Augustus Freeman)
19 - Red Arrow (William Harper)
20 - Accomplished Perfect Physician (Yao Fei)
21 – Doctor Fate (Nabu) (John Quinn)
22 – Atom (Raymond Palmer)
23 – Plastic Man (Patrick O'Brian)
24 - Blue Lantern (Alan Scott)
25 - Doctor Mist (Nommo Balewa)
26 - Red Rocket (Dmitri Pushkin)
27 – Angelica (Angelica Blaze)

Click to shrink...

Kind of makes me want to see a Justice League Dark analogue forming; a seventh of the current lineup are mages, and two more are magically empowered and quasi-divine (maybe Perfect Physician fits somewhere here too, I'm not sure of the nature of his powers).
In terms of magical threats, I think some G-Oni are still out there, right? Plus Lady Eve as I mentioned before.
Actually, will Hecate make an appearance in this story? Trying to negotiate with her as a way to deal with Circe could be interesting, and deviate from Renegade's path of action. Paragon never really tried with her, and he does know the underlying issue she has. Would be a good return to form.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Koriand'r is also very sane.

Click to shrink...

No argument there. I wasn't excluding any other Orange Lanterns being sane. But I, and OL in-story, were noting they where amongst the more stable Lanterns - no little manias, like Manga Khan's...

 

[Darko]

No argument there. I wasn't excluding any other Orange Lanterns being sane. But I, and OL in-story, were noting they where amongst the more stable Lanterns - no little manias, like Manga Khan's...

Click to shrink...

I doubt anyone has manias like Manga.

 

[Ardy]

I think it was at New Year?

Click to shrink...

Just checked. Paul did indeed say that Alan was a new member, though Angelica officially joining wasn't directly mentioned. Ah well, her arc's done anyway

 

[Simonbob]

No conflict since the fifties has had that kind of outright sanctioned civilian carnage, has it? Vietnam got close with the destruction of villages, but those could always be blamed on 'Burn the village to save the village'-type warhawk commanders. Anything else falls more into 'Ethnic cleansing'... And some of the worst probably fall under or close to Rule 8.

Click to shrink...

Former Yugoslavia, Africa, a lot, some conflicts in the Middle East.......

In the First Worlds, you're right. Not so much for the rest of the World.