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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Ct613hulu said:
So another chapter in which one character supports Nazi ideology while the protagonist flails around and can't manage to muster a serious opposition.

Why isn't OL bringing up how the standards that the Nazi regime is using to determine genetic fitness are hopelessly biased and that the Nazi system of eugenics is not in any way representative of real genetic science. It should be trivial for him to prove that Jews and other people deemed genetically unfit by Nazi Ideology do not possess genetic characters that make them inferior or dangerous.

You can say what you want about it making sense for OL to behave like this from an IC perspective, but you are the one setting up the conditions that lead to this situation where the arguments supporting a horrific ideology are presented in a strong manner while the arguments against it are delivered in a lackluster manner. Why have you led the story in this direction? Are you trying to prove some philosophical or political point here?
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You can not convince a person by brownbeating them over the head with FACTs.

I challenge you to do so to any dedicated religious person in a few days and see their response.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Ah, gay panic defence. It sounds so awesome, like a kind of homosexual limit break, but it's actually so rubbish.
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And yet so remarkably common.

Pretty much every teen boy who has ever approached his crush and gotten his face smashed for his trouble gets to hear it. Nah bro, couldn't just let you down easy, because you were just so damn gay that I had to punch you in the face as hard, and as many times as I could before someone (hopefully) stopped me.

Grimnar said:
You know, it's just occured to me how much of a fucking dick OL is being.
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I know right? Just letting this nazi filth live as long as he has. Hopefully it's to allow the Jewish and Romani singers time to get set up so that they can serenade to her as the green K gas does its job for maximum joyus effect.

Ah yes, an entire chapter almost scientifically designed to piss me the fuck off.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I know right? Just letting this nazi filth live as long as he has. Hopefully it's to allow the Jewish and Romani singers time to get set up so that they can serenade to her as the green K gas does its job for maximum joyus effect.

Ah yes, an entire chapter almost scientifically designed to piss me the fuck off.
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"Even when we hunger for the destruction of our foes we must always strive for their conversion. A living ally is of infinitely greater worth than a dead opponent."
-General Cirin,
Crimson Dark​

Also, there's the whole "murder is illegal" thing to consider, as well.
 
RichardWhereat said:
Case could be made that she's a nazi alien invader if he wanted. Not like the UN would be angry with him. Germany and Israel may give him a medal.
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General Hardcastle: "That's what I tried with that huge ape alien thing, but someone made a stink about 'involuntary arrival' and 'hasn't committed any crimes on this planet' as though that changed what it is."
 
RichardWhereat said:
Case could be made that she's a nazi alien invader if he wanted. Not like the UN would be angry with him. Germany and Israel may give him a medal.
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True but until she actually does something she's just a person with very unfortunate beliefs, who in all fairness is actually being far more reasonable than more local Nazis would be

Plus the League would know the truth and it would undercut the defence for Xor
 
This chapter and the comments on it (mostly the comments really) has been pretty aggravating to me for the opposite reasons as Ct613hulu: People not being Nazis or knowing any Nazis means they have a very limited understanding of the justifications and actual beliefs of Nazis, just the rather selective, biased, oversimplified and often heavily distorted portrayals they've been exposed to.

I mean, it's still better than every single Worm fic mentioning E88 ever, but that's a very low bar.

1930s Germany was full of millions of intelligent people who considered themselves good people and strived for consistent worlviews (just like those in the modern Republican/Democratic/Conservative/Labour parties!).
There was almost certainly a pretty consistent and reasonable sounding worldview and justification for most of what they believed and what was done (people often forget that anti-Jewish and pro-eugenics sentiments were the norm throughout the Western world in this period, both of which are completely incomprehensible to modern day people as they've forgotten all the justifications).
These beliefs varied from person to person, evolved over time and would continue to evolve should the Nazi state have persisted.

My knowledge of these beliefs is also quite limited, but I can at least acknowledge that the justifications should appear to hold water and can attempt to construct a good and consistent worldview on that assumption, many others are just more interested in getting outraged or showing tribal loyalty by metaphorically punching Nazis.

Ct613hulu said:
The fact that dehumanizing enemies can be a psychologically tempting and useful means of behavior doesn't mean that it should be considered to be morally acceptable or any less dangerous.
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*looks at Maxx Crowley*
 
Mr Zoat said:
I don't remember what Germany Prime's stance on gay marriage was, but here it's been legal since the naughties
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Nineties...?

Edit: Nvm, that is indeed a synonymous of the first decade, and it was indeed in the 2000.


This is going as good as I expected it to go, now after her talk with aunt gerri hit her with the Olympics, the matches of Chess Olympiad, and the testimony of our good boy angel and she will break... And go into a murderous rage or depression.


Maxx Crowley said:
And yet so remarkably common.



Pretty much every teen boy who has ever approached his crush and gotten his face smashed for his trouble gets to hear it. Nah bro, couldn't just let you down easy, because you were just so damn gay that I had to punch you in the face as hard, and as many times as I could before someone (hopefully) stopped me.



I know right? Just letting this nazi filth live as long as he has. Hopefully it's to allow the Jewish and Romani singers time to get set up so that they can serenade to her as the green K gas does its job for maximum joyus effect.



Ah yes, an entire chapter almost scientifically designed to piss me the fuck off.
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Fuck this is political isnt it?

I will PM you this.
 
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Chaoswind said:
This is going as good as I expected it to go, now after her talk with aunt gerri hit her with the Olympics, the matches of Chess Olympiad, and the testimony of our good boy angel and she will break... And go into a murderous rage or depression.
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I'd be surprised. Nazi Germany has probably encountered things like this before and come up with explanations.
For example, maybe some Slavs are chess savants? Or maybe there's some good Germanic blood in the Western Russians who are engineers or chess champions?

Explaining away evidence is remarkably easy.
 
Sharp Card said:
I'd be surprised. Nazi Germany has probably encountered things like this before and come up with explanations.
For example, maybe some Slavs are chess savants? Or maybe there's some good Germanic blood in the Western Russians who are engineers or chess champions?

Explaining away evidence is remarkably easy.
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I mean there's a huge difference between the Nazis having to explain away why some "undesirable" people are good at certain things and trying to explain away why people from various different races and beliefs are as good, if not better, at these thing and are beating supposedly "pure" competitors despite having no German ancestry
 
Ganurath said:
"Even when we hunger for the destruction of our foes we must always strive for their conversion. A living ally is of infinitely greater worth than a dead opponent." -General Cirin,
Crimson Dark
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"Fuck em, they're nazis." -Maxx Crowley. The tao of Crowley

"He's gonna bash your Nazi brains in with a baseball bat." (Paraphrasing) George Clooney That one movie.

At work and typing on a phone sucks. Get to your other point later dear.

Sharp Card said:
*looks at Maxx Crowley*
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Hello darling *strikes a booty pose* Yes, I know I'm cute.
 
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Sad Machine said:
I mean...why bother? She's right, why should Paul give a shit?
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People who don't give a shit don't become superheroes. The SI would much rather convert and reform than slaughter. If she actually started acting out then he'd shoot her with the gold kryptonite and stick her in a cell somewhere, but that hasn't turned out to be necessary.
 
I can understand OL's point of view. Obviously he wants to show her the error of her ways and convince her that her opinions and beliefs are very disgusting and frankly wrong. After all, wouldn't we all like to convince a Nazi that his opinions are wrong?
However, Overgirl has been raised with this specific ideology. All her life she's been told that the Nazi Ideology is right and perfect without any flaws. She's definitely more civil and self controlled than other people, but I don't think you can really change her mind. Whatever you say she'll deflect and make up excuses.
Unless you bring out the ''big guns'' and show her (not say) something that can really shatter her worldview, I don't think you'll make much progress.
But I have to ask.
If you do somehow change her mind and convert her to a different way of thinking, what does that achieve exactly? Sure we'll have one less superpowered Nazi in the universe, but how will that change anything?
I doubt Overgirl has the power or will to fight Overman or start a massive revolution that will change Earth 10. I don't see why exactly changing her mind is even worth all this trouble. She's a National Socialist, but she hasn't committed any crimes nor broke any laws. So If I were Paul I'd probably be nice to her, help her out to get back to her Earth and forget this ever happened. Of course Paul isn't me and I'd go as far to say that he'd probably make a better hero than me anyways.
Also, this discussion has started to get a bit out of control. It hasn't reached pandemonium levels of bad exactly, but if we don't calm down and cool off a bit it can certainly get worse.
Thank Odin were not on Space Batttles.
 
Nazi isn't just a word, or an identity group. It's a mode of behavior.

And killing people for what they are rather than what they do is pretty much considered the dividing line. well, not exactly an accurate dividing line but I think it comes pretty close.

I think people pay far too much attention to symbols and tribes and far too little to modes of behavior, in general. Overgirl in this exchange is behaviorally being a remarkably strong specimen of modern liberal - in that she's conversationally participating in the collaborative discovery of truth, and adjusting her behavior to match when the truth doesn't match her preexisting beliefs. If I was OL, of course I'd keep talking to her. Why stop now? It's working so remarkably well.

I mean, so, what, you can't talk Nazis out of being Nazis? Daryl Davis would disagree.
 
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IndigoAbyss said:
But I have to ask.

If you do somehow change her mind and convert her to a different way of thinking, what does that achieve exactly? Sure we'll have one less superpowered Nazi in the universe, but how will that change anything?

I doubt Overgirl has the power or will to fight Overman or start a massive revolution that will change Earth 10. I don't see why exactly changing her mind is even worth all this trouble. She's a National Socialist, but she hasn't committed any crimes nor broke any laws. So If I were Paul I'd probably be nice to her, help her out to get back to her Earth and forget this ever happened. Of course Paul isn't me and I'd go as far to say that he'd probably make a better hero than me anyways.

Also, this discussion has started to get a bit out of control. It hasn't reached pandemonium levels of bad exactly, but if we don't calm down and cool off a bit it can certainly get worse.
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Parallel universe are unfortunately not as parallel as might be preferred. That Nazi parallel with technology decades in advance of this one? It's difficult, but they can get here.

From the sounds of it, Overman isn't too thrilled about the way things are. If Overgirl begins to feel the same way and brings back evidence that the NSDAP has expunged, their government could be destabilised and forced to undergo some sort of reform. Or she might make contact with people who feel the same way she now does.
Thank Odin were not on Space Batttles.
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Nah, it's cool. No Star Wars.
FeepingCreature said:
Nazi isn't just a word, or an identity group. It's a mode of behavior.

And killing people for what they are rather than what they do is pretty much considered the dividing line.
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As previously stated, Nazis don't call themselves Nazis. If they're calling themselves Nazis then they're probably not.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Parallel universe are unfortunately not as parallel as might be preferred. That Nazi parallel with technology decades in advance of this one? It's difficult, but they can get here.

From the sounds of it, Overman isn't too thrilled about the way things are. If Overgirl begins to feel the same way and brings back evidence that the NSDAP has expunged, their government could be destabilised and forced to undergo some sort of reform. Or she might make contact with people who feel the same way she now does.
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I suppose that does make sense, but it sound a bit too optimistic to me. I don't know much about Earth 10 nor Overman, but I don't really think that he cares about changing things. If he truly doesn't like the things the way that they are, why hasn't he done something to change it already? It looks to me that Overman is basically viewed as an omnipotent god. Not to mention he has an army of Metahumans on this side (I'm assuming that he probably does). I checked the wiki on Earth 10 and it looks like the one ruling the earth is Adolf Hitler III (I love the creativity and originality with the names), but he seems more like the De Jury leader, not De Facto.
Overman is probably the one who hold the actual real power, so why hasn't he made any effort to change things? Take note, I'm not saying that Overman should have completely changed the entire system overnight, but he definitely could have made some small reforms. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't he know about other Earths and how they work. So he should know that Nazism isn't the best philosophy to have.
 
If his goal is really to cause effective change on Earth 10 and to prevent them from posing a threat against Earth 16, the best method would probably be to brand her and fundamentally alter her desires. Any change in behavior could easily be explained by the amount of shocking things she has learned on earth 16.

Anything else just seems very likely to fail, like even if he can fully convince her that National Socialism is wrong, she may still resist causing any major changes because of the amount of people she cares about who support it, or maybe she'd doubt that she could replace it by a better system.
 
Aeess has a point that desire alteration may be the only thing that works, but if the people of earth 10 perform some kind of checkup on her they may discover it.
Depending on how good they are with technology, or magic if they examine her spiritually and see the alterations made.
 
IndigoAbyss said:
I suppose that does make sense, but it sound a bit too optimistic to me. I don't know much about Earth 10 nor Overman, but I don't really think that he cares about changing things. If he truly doesn't like the things the way that they are, why hasn't he done something to change it already? It looks to me that Overman is basically viewed as an omnipotent god. Not to mention he has an army of Metahumans on this side (I'm assuming that he probably does). I checked the wiki on Earth 10 and it looks like the one ruling the earth is Adolf Hitler III (I love the creativity and originality with the names), but he seems more like the De Jure leader, not De Facto.

Overman is probably the one who hold the actual real power, so why hasn't he made any effort to change things? Take note, I'm not saying that Overman should have completely changed the entire system overnight, but he definitely could have made some small reforms. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't he know about other Earths and how they work. So he should know that Nazism isn't the best philosophy to have.
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I'm basing my Earth 10 more on the Multiversity version than the Freedom Fighters version. No army of metahumans was shown, only the other Reichsmen.

As I understand it, he isn't trying to force change through. He's trying openness and honestly and... Well, no one's really listening because it was all decades ago and nothing to do with them for his countrymen, and because it doesn't matter why it happened only that the beneficiaries pay now for the Freedom Fighters.

Actual Overman's location isn't known to the Reich government in Freedom Fighters. They're using Hank Henshaw instead.
 
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